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bah oberst rolled to well on his defense role and my dominate failedMendrian posted:You're shifting goalposts. You agree that the extreme example is ludicrous, but then jump to the conclusion that such players just aren't cool with Dominate 100% of the time. lol i'm not shifting goalposts dominate is good but both extremes are bad just like everything in this world and in the world of darkness. why do you think just because you use dominate on a player its a pvp? like for example in my campaign my character signed a bad contract(rolled terribly when reading the contract) from a npc that another player character took me to and i went to retaliate against this npc but it turns out the npc was a touchstone so in order to protect his touchstone he used dominate on my character to prevent my character from retaliating. that's not pvp or wrong thats just smart. lol why are you asking permission in the middle of the scene nice metagaming
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Sep 1, 2019 18:56
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Joe Slowboat posted:I genuinely thought there could be a conversation here about what people get out of playing cutthroat Vampire, and how to make it enjoyable for everyone, which was... wildly optimistic, apparently. (After an initial not-useful-at-all response, I admit). Should you examine their posting records (don't do this), you'll quickly realize neither Oberst nor their alternate form Metapod generate good discussion, post in good faith, or really post good at all. The correct thing to do is block and ignore the "pair" of them (pair is in quotes because they pop up at the same time to post exactly the same garbage with the exact same garbage posting style, to the extent I'd be more surprised if they were two different people).
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Sep 1, 2019 18:59
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Omnicrom posted:Should you examine their posting records (don't do this), you'll quickly realize neither Oberst nor their alternate form Metapod generate good discussion, post in good faith, or really post good at all. The correct thing to do is block and ignore the "pair" of them (pair is in quotes because they pop up at the same time to post exactly the same garbage with the exact same garbage posting style, to the extent I'd be more surprised if they were two different people). Eish, thanks for the heads up. Regardless: I'll be honest, I've had more trouble getting players to throw their powers/antagonism at each others characters when the prospective victim's player wants more drama, than having to tamp down on PC-on-PC aggression. Players assume that, if it's not openly invited, they shouldn't propose it or do it, even when they're inclined to. I had one Mage whose player really wanted a confrontation with their cabal about how dumb they'd been acting, but none of the other players were really pursuing that proactively. I did speak to her and she ended up just asking 'hey, does anyone want to chew my character out for being a dumbass who almost got us all killed, because I'd appreciate it.' So I'm interested in how to encourage more in-character antagonism in benign ways. Probably not for this campaign, but for something in the future.
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Sep 1, 2019 19:07
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Omnicrom posted:Should you examine their posting records (don't do this), you'll quickly realize neither Oberst nor their alternate form Metapod generate good discussion, post in good faith, or really post good at all. The correct thing to do is block and ignore the "pair" of them (pair is in quotes because they pop up at the same time to post exactly the same garbage with the exact same garbage posting style, to the extent I'd be more surprised if they were two different people). lmfao i disagree with you so im not posting in good faith incredible
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Sep 1, 2019 19:13
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^^^ You really aren't. You're deliberately being dense about a really simple playstyle, and blanket-stating 'well maybe don't play vampire!!' is a flat-out stupid response to house rules.Ferrinus posted:Pretend I've pasted that entire grognards.txt post featuring "non-coercive mind control". I have not seen this post, where is it. Without quoting the posting-in-bad-faith brigade: it's possible to enjoy the concept of a game and still be uncomfortable with using some of the mechanics on fellow players! House rules are made for this kind of thing! Saying 'limited use of Dominate on PCs,' or even 'we're starting out with very limited use of Dominate on PCs until everyone gets comfortable with one another, or not at all if that's not your jam' isn't somehow an illegitimate way to play Vampire. It's just a slightly altered version of it. Hell, there could even be an IC reason for it. Maybe a handler that says 'yeah if you do this to each other then (xyz).' Give it a reason if people are going to get pissy about an ubiquitous power being sidelined. If someone breaks the rules, it can put the group in some kind of danger of losing-- IDK, a contract or something. There are ways to do it that don't offend a bUT mY thEMe guy's sensibilities, or whatever it is they're getting all huffy about. It's absolutely in-theme for a higher-up vamp to pull some arbitrary rules out of their rear end to make something work for the players involved, just like it's okay to house rule that Dominate or other mind-bendy powers have limited use on PCs with zero explanation. Everyone plays things differently, and it's rare to find games that match up 1:1, because o hey playstyles differ from table to table, whatever form the table happens to take, be it PBP or MU* or IRL. This isn't a hard concept to understand, and I get these guys are posting in bad faith/being willfully obtuse about it, but goddamn, of all the things to be obtuse about. Old Boot fucked around with this message at 19:29 on Sep 1, 2019 |
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Sep 1, 2019 19:26
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Old Boot posted:^^^ You really aren't. You're deliberately being dense about a really simple playstyle, and blanket-stating 'well maybe don't play vampire!!' is a flat-out stupid response to house rules. This was basically my argument and I think this ought to segue into the much more interesting discussion of what people's table rules are and how they justified or have enforced them!
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Sep 1, 2019 20:23
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So the recently released video game Control is barely one step removed from being a Demon: The Descent game, and I might start using it as one of my touchstones for explaining what Demon is about, along with Person of Interest and "you know the rogue programs in the Matrix?" It's kind of a mixed bag in terms of gameplay, but the atmosphere was strong enough to make me overlook it -- which if you've ever heard me bitching about game design, is not something I say often. 
Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 21:26 on Sep 1, 2019 |
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Sep 1, 2019 21:17
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Mendrian posted:This was basically my argument and I think this ought to segue into the much more interesting discussion of what people's table rules are and how they justified or have enforced them! My werewolf group is going to have to deal with some pvp soon. One of my players is, irl and in game, the fun police. It's caused problems before with him rules lawyering his way around things I've said, specially that he didn't know that another player had eaten a human. The other player is a drama magnet in the best sense of that term and went with it, but I did have a talk with fun police about taking away player agency. In our current fight, the gatornado attacking the swamp biolab, Nikki, our cannibal, ate a mercenary's arm in plain sight of everyone while in gauru form. Our cub character, is playing up his monster bone, and also ate some human flesh in the ongoing fight. Both of these things are going to cause a confrontation with our fun police rahu, who is also the most combat statted of the entire pack. But it's also something that all parties involved are okay with, not one character just straight up doing it over another's objections. Nikki's player and I have also discussed turning her character into an NPC antagonist, especially after I read the devourer section in shunned by the moon.
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Sep 1, 2019 21:26
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We made our characters last night and had a blast. Me and one other person are taking small-framed and will be 5' tall or less. We're trying to convince the third player to take Giant so we can hide in his coat. I'm playing a tinkerer/gadgeteer Nosferatu, the other small person is playing an Otaku Gangrel and the third is a carnival barker Daeva. I have no clue what the story is going to be about but I'm pumped.
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Sep 1, 2019 21:40
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So, with Nu Woof, is it assumed that all PCs are of the same tribe starting out, or otherwise?
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Sep 1, 2019 21:44
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I do not really have personal experience to pvp besides perhaps one or two games, but a good way to possibly implement this is where the PCs are all Ancillae/Elders/etc. They'd be built with more starting XP, and it's a given they'd have lots of social Backgrounds to draw upon. They can play as themselves, but certain missions and sessions may put their Retainers and Allies in the hands of the players. That way, there's less of a personal feeling of "you Dominated/brainwashed/staked my Nosferatu Primogen" and more "you firebombed/blood bonded my ghoul hitmen." There's still stakes involved and fighting over influence and resources, but it does not have the sheer finality of hitting a level three Blood Bond or the Final Death.Terratina posted:So, with Nu Woof, is it assumed that all PCs are of the same tribe starting out, or otherwise? Not necessarily, although it is a common form of social bonding. Werewolves in territories which are close together or slightly overlap may allow fraternization as to foster community and let their newer members learn more about the wider Uratha culture. There's also the fact that Tribes organize along what types of prey they're tasked with hunting, so a Bone Shadows shaman (specialize in spirits) hanging out with some Hunters in Darkness may learn a thing or two about Hosts. Libertad! fucked around with this message at 21:53 on Sep 1, 2019 |
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Sep 1, 2019 21:48
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Terratina posted:So, with Nu Woof, is it assumed that all PCs are of the same tribe starting out, or otherwise? My sense was not necessarily, and that a mixed-tribe pack will have a particular territory and hunt whatever the current problem is, with the relevant tribe member leading the Hunt? Like, you kind of need a mixed pack if you're the only Forsaken staking out your town. You don't want to let Claimed run wild just because you decided to focus on Hosts.
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Sep 1, 2019 21:52
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Inzombiac posted:We made our characters last night and had a blast. A Japanese amusement park which a rival covenant is trying to destroy by sabotaging the rides.
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Sep 1, 2019 21:53
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Generally speaking, Forsaken takes the view that when pack and tribe come into conflict, pack wins. Period. Your pack is your family, your tribe is basically your job.
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Sep 1, 2019 22:42
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Terratina posted:So, with Nu Woof, is it assumed that all PCs are of the same tribe starting out, or otherwise? About as much as Mage PCs are assumed to be all of the same Order. They're player options, there for players to choose from. NPCs probably are more likely to form single-tribe packs, just because werewolves of like mind are likely to group together, but PC groups are almost always the daring oddballs anyway. The tribes are also more like loose networks of support, education, and oral tradition than explicit organizations, being less formal and structured than Covenants or Orders. In 2e, there's a significant advantage to the flexibility of having multiple tribes in one pack. Each tribe is attuned to a different facet of the Rite of the Sacred Hunt which is a little better at hunting particular types of prey, and there's neither taboo nor difficulty in leading packmates from other tribes in your tribe's aspect of the Rite. Your pack can only go on one Sacred Hunt at a time, I believe, but the more variants of the Rite are shared within your pack, the more you can adapt each hunt to fit the hunted.
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Sep 1, 2019 22:50
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Libertad! posted:Not necessarily, although it is a common form of social bonding. Werewolves in territories which are close together or slightly overlap may allow fraternization as to foster community and let their newer members learn more about the wider Uratha culture. There's also the fact that Tribes organize along what types of prey they're tasked with hunting, so a Bone Shadows shaman (specialize in spirits) hanging out with some Hunters in Darkness may learn a thing or two about Hosts. Joe Slowboat posted:My sense was not necessarily, and that a mixed-tribe pack will have a particular territory and hunt whatever the current problem is, with the relevant tribe member leading the Hunt? Mors Rattus posted:Generally speaking, Forsaken takes the view that when pack and tribe come into conflict, pack wins. Period. Your pack is your family, your tribe is basically your job. I Am Just a Box posted:About as much as Mage PCs are assumed to be all of the same Order. They're player options, there for players to choose from. NPCs probably are more likely to form single-tribe packs, just because werewolves of like mind are likely to group together, but PC groups are almost always the daring oddballs anyway. The tribes are also more like loose networks of support, education, and oral tradition than explicit organizations, being less formal and structured than Covenants or Orders. Thank you all, though the Mage context is useless for me as I know little and get Mage wrong half the time.
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Sep 1, 2019 23:03
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Old Boot posted:^^^ You really aren't. You're deliberately being dense about a really simple playstyle, and blanket-stating 'well maybe don't play vampire!!' is a flat-out stupid response to house rules. lmao if you switch my username to someone you liked you wouldnt be saying this at all. all this convo was is me saying using dominate on players for in character reasons is good and having to ask permission is incredibly dumb and childish and everyone who quoted me throwing a hissy fit how that takes away their player agency because they can't handle that vampires have agendas outside of the coteries agenda and those agendas should be acted upon. yeah play the game how you want to play but if you are going to gut core mechanics from the game why not just play a different game?
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Sep 1, 2019 23:05
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Terratina posted:Thank you all, though the Mage context is useless for me as I know little and get Mage wrong half the time. You can’t play Mage wrong... unless you take out all the magic. If you do that then you’re just playing something else and that’s okay too! Way better to just play and have fun than worry about ‘getting it right’. Mage is weird and fun and no one should worry about getting it textual perfect because that sort of destroys the point of it being weird and crazy.
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Sep 2, 2019 00:22
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Common misconception. You actually can't get Mage right, although if you're lucky you'll get closer and closer each time you try.
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Sep 2, 2019 00:47
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Metapod posted:lmao if you switch my username to someone you liked you wouldnt be saying this at all. This is categorically false. Anyone with an opinion that's this aggressively bad would get the exact same response.
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Sep 2, 2019 01:15
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I had another idea for a Nosferatu and it's an affliction where people interperate your words and actions in the worst possible way. Like, everything you say comes across as dripping with scorn and sarcasm, your slightest physical moves look like you're taking a swing, and people just assume you're dumb because they cannot physically comprehend what you're saying.
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Sep 2, 2019 01:17
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Old Boot posted:This is categorically false. Give it up, Metapod/Oberst will never engage and never improve. PHIZ KALIFA posted:I had another idea for a Nosferatu and it's an affliction where people interperate your words and actions in the worst possible way. Like, everything you say comes across as dripping with scorn and sarcasm, your slightest physical moves look like you're taking a swing, and people just assume you're dumb because they cannot physically comprehend what you're saying. So a Nosferatu who's perpetually trapped in a Toshiki Inoue series? I could see that working.
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Sep 2, 2019 01:27
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PHIZ KALIFA posted:I had another idea for a Nosferatu and it's an affliction where people interperate your words and actions in the worst possible way. Like, everything you say comes across as dripping with scorn and sarcasm, your slightest physical moves look like you're taking a swing, and people just assume you're dumb because they cannot physically comprehend what you're saying.
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Sep 2, 2019 01:45
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Ferrinus posted:Common misconception. You actually can't get Mage right, although if you're lucky you'll get closer and closer each time you try. You can get it right in your head but you'll never be able to communicate what getting it right is without driving someone else insane.
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Sep 2, 2019 02:23
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Old Boot posted:This is categorically false. Lol if you think this is aggressively bad just because its opposing and not outright agreeing
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Sep 2, 2019 02:49
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people wouldnt give a poo poo about who you are if you werent making really bad posts to begin with
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Sep 2, 2019 03:05
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Omnicrom posted:So a Nosferatu who's perpetually trapped in a Toshiki Inoue series? I could see that working. TBH a lot of protagonists from Ranma 1/2 could inspire flaws or whole outright factions. Switching genders in the presence of water, attacking exclusively with non-weapons, always getting lost (all the time), being somehow soul-bound to someone whose presence drives you bonkers. . . . That last one could be some kind of Werewolf thing, where you're drawn to partner with your lunar opposite or some poo poo. Maybe a Paradox thing for mage, where suddenly the love of your life becomes the person you hate most. drat, Toshiki Inoue and Rumiko Takahashi make good characters.
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Sep 2, 2019 03:07
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So a Nosferatu curse hit me while I was out for a walk today. A completely average looking and pleasant (for a vampire) individual. But whenever someone states something that is factually incorrect in their presence, no matter how innocent, harmless, or obscure, their shadow pipes up with a 'Well, Akshully...' and proceeds to lecture in a pedantic version of the vampire's voice for far too long.
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Sep 2, 2019 04:10
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how obscure we talking exactly? this sounds like oracular npc material
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Sep 2, 2019 04:17
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PHIZ KALIFA posted:I had another idea for a Nosferatu and it's an affliction where people interperate your words and actions in the worst possible way. Like, everything you say comes across as dripping with scorn and sarcasm, your slightest physical moves look like you're taking a swing, and people just assume you're dumb because they cannot physically comprehend what you're saying. https://youtu.be/R9nG9z5tumw
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Sep 2, 2019 06:11
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ogresque posted:how obscure we talking exactly? this sounds like oracular npc material As obscure as you can go without your players trying to murder you or no longer having fun?
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Sep 2, 2019 06:11
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Tasoth posted:As obscure as you can go without your players trying to murder you or no longer having fun? Say you're trying to solve a murder, and you walk up to this Nos and make a wild guess about who the culprit is. Does the Nos then go into excruciating detail about how the deed was done and by whom?
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Sep 3, 2019 04:10
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i know nos are supposed to be cut out from polite society but this poor bastard would basically be living in complete seclusion under a prince's close "protection"
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Sep 3, 2019 05:17
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To the forum VtM fans here, to what extent has the Giovanni clan be "redeemed" from what some regard as its iffier origins? Although the Ravnos are regarded by fans overall as the worst, they along with the Kuei-Jin and Assamite fall into the 'ethnic stereotype clan' as Italian mafia necromancers along with excessive inbreeding. Although the most common criticism is that their surname is rather mundane in Italian, and their base of operations in Venice is far from the IRL Mafia's strongholds in southern Italy. I have heard that in VtM 5e some other necromancer bloodline joined up with them or something to make up for both of their lost numbers, and according to the VtM wiki they started embracing groups of other nationalities and ethnic groups, albeit largely confined to said countries in which they expand (Mexican Giovanni largely reside in Mexico and such). Barring some of the more obscure or long-dead bloodlines, how easy would it be to play a vampire necromancer-gangster without being a Game of Thrones/Godfather incest-baby? Libertad! fucked around with this message at 06:15 on Sep 3, 2019 |
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Sep 3, 2019 06:04
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Libertad! posted:To the forum VtM fans here, to what extent has the Giovanni clan be "redeemed" from what some regard as its iffier origins? Although the Ravnos are regarded by fans overall as the worst, they along with the Kuei-Jin and Assamite fall into the 'ethnic stereotype clan' as Italian mafia necromancers along with excessive inbreeding. Although the most common criticism is that their surname is rather mundane in Italian, and their base of operations in Venice is far from the IRL Mafia's strongholds in southern Italy. I actually wanted to go in the other direction: play down the Italian and maybe gangster aspects, play up the tight-knit Clan of necromancers with particular Embrace customs. A vampire group that Embraces solely (that is to say, tries to and fails frequently with lots of bastard children they refuse to acknowledge) within loyal ghouls from their own extended family is a pretty unique thing that I think could be kept. VTM-with-extra-family-politics is a wonderful avenue for playable conflicts, and there's a certain horror to play up in being part of a powerful, rich, and controlling family. (Also maybe make them a Ventrue bloodline because between the Lasombra, Ventrue, Old Clan Tzimisce, and Giovannia there's really a few too many vampire Clans whose concept is "upper class vampires".)
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Sep 3, 2019 09:29
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LatwPIAT posted:I actually wanted to go in the other direction: play down the Italian and maybe gangster aspects, play up the tight-knit Clan of necromancers with particular Embrace customs. A vampire group that Embraces solely (that is to say, tries to and fails frequently with lots of bastard children they refuse to acknowledge) within loyal ghouls from their own extended family is a pretty unique thing that I think could be kept. VTM-with-extra-family-politics is a wonderful avenue for playable conflicts, and there's a certain horror to play up in being part of a powerful, rich, and controlling family. I think this might be even more interesting with a sort of medieval approach to ancestry. Which is to say, bastards are technically supposed to be a big no-no, but everyone knows they Just Happen and whether or not they're acknowledged even as bastards, whether they get legitimized, whether they have any official or unofficial influence and to what degree their suspect parentage is used as a weapon against them depends mostly on how politically useful they are. So you get a things like a sire doting on a bastard son because his lineage gives him a strong claim on a rival family's holdings, while his legitimate childre and especially older bastards fume at the indignity. Or, this being the world of darkness, swerve Game of Thrones-wards with bastards being an acknowledged thing and allowed to exist in polite society, but expected to grovel for any scraps their "betters" deign to throw them. This actually opens up the interesting possibility of elders seeking out or even actively engineering bastards to use as pawns. Because after all, all you need to do to earn the loyalty of a starving wolf is to feed it a decent meal, right?* (* no, absolutely not, but this is Vampire and that's kind of the point. Canis canem edit)
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Sep 3, 2019 09:59
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Libertad! posted:To the forum VtM fans here, to what extent has the Giovanni clan be "redeemed" from what some regard as its iffier origins? Although the Ravnos are regarded by fans overall as the worst, they along with the Kuei-Jin and Assamite fall into the 'ethnic stereotype clan' as Italian mafia necromancers along with excessive inbreeding. Although the most common criticism is that their surname is rather mundane in Italian, and their base of operations in Venice is far from the IRL Mafia's strongholds in southern Italy. The answer I like is to smush them together with Lasombra since they're basically the same clan and the Abyss being just the Shadowlands with less humans is already being postulated in books by White Wolf writers. Lasombra already have the darkest Popery fears that WASPy 90s writers had a thing for, and the outsider cache. Just lean into it.
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Sep 3, 2019 15:22
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I can't keep Bloodborne away from my mind, so I thought about a Bloodline of Hunters. A vampire Hunter got embraced and ending creating a Bloodline of Vampire Monster Hunters. I'm thinking Gangrel with Animalism, Celerity, Obfuscate, Protean. With a few Hunter-related devotions. For Weakness I'm thinking that they lose Willpower when they let an obviously monstrous Monster go. Because a Hoonter must Hoont.
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Sep 3, 2019 16:51
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Honestly even if you (understandably) want to downplay Giovanni-organized crime connection (which Revised did, at the least) there's a lot to like about certain ideals of the Mafia translate to the Giovanni. The family may tear itself apart because nobody fights like family, but they present a united front to outsiders. They have a code of silence that means people think they know what they're about, but only the 'made' (or actual vampires) know exactly what they're up to. And, most importantly, they'll huck ALL of that under the bus to get what they want which is mostly personal power. That said you absolutely do not have to have been Jimmy Two-Times or Pete the Killer in life for the Giovanni to give you a sniff because while they look at their human relations first (because they're easier to keep tabs on and already tend to be interested in what the clan is interested in) they'll take anybody who they think they can give them what they want. Also mobsters tend not to be geared for necromancy so much.
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Sep 3, 2019 16:57
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I heard that the Giovanni in V5 got mauled by the inquisition/Harbringers, and are merging with the Samedi and remaining Cappadocians. Is that even true? Sounds a bit unlikely.
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Sep 3, 2019 17:19
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