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Groogy posted:Making things sound fancier than it is, though I guess us being used to it, I don't see it like that. Terms I hear a lot more when we talk is "loops" to feed the addiction that is our games so you keep doing the "Just one more year". please tie estates back into individual provinces somehow. that is the actually fun part of interacting with them in their current state, reducing them to buttons that you twiddle (even if those buttons are very interesting) reduces the feeling that your estates are reflecting the internal power structure of the country. ideally it would be a system where each estate has a % of control in each province which influences the output of the province in some way, but anything would be better than abandoning the idea also timers are cool and good imo. they're a separate layer from the loops which are more long-term strategic rather than the short-term thinking of the loop gameplay. they definitely add more thinking to the game, where you have to consider whether you want to blow timer-based decisions/resources/etc. on a particular iteration of the loop and risk needing it more later
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Sep 5, 2019 12:35
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I respectfully disagree. I am hard pressed to find what is fun with assigning out the estates, especially now when I have both systems available to me and I groan every time I interact with the old estates system. I can understand the loss of "tangible presence" which does hold an emotional value to the player, but I don't think compromising here to get "both" would result in better gameplay. What is it they say, compromise means just neither are happy? And timers as utilized in eu4 I find just pure bad because it just jar with the purpose of a strategy game where you take decisions. What about states edicts cooldown makes you think? What about interactions makes you think? All of these things are "click, try to remember when to go into screen to click again". Now because of their current functionality they need cooldowns like States edicts because otherwise there is no cost to usage. Loops have both long term and short term viability, cool downs are a band aid to solve a game design problem.
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Sep 5, 2019 13:14
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Personally I think the new estate system looks great and I always kinda disliked everything about the old one.
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Sep 5, 2019 13:40
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Gobblecoque posted:Personally I think the new estate system looks great and I always kinda disliked everything about the old one. Yeah, the old system sucked. I dont know much about the new, but chances are its gonna be an improvement, the bar is really low edit: also in my last few games I never assigned provinces to estates, I never felt the need of doing it, I even forgot that was a thing. Estates for me are a menu I click once in a while to get some bonus, and thats it Elias_Maluco fucked around with this message at 13:45 on Sep 5, 2019 |
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Sep 5, 2019 13:42
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Groogy posted:And timers as utilized in eu4 I find just pure bad because it just jar with the purpose of a strategy game where you take decisions. What about states edicts cooldown makes you think? What about interactions makes you think? All of these things are "click, try to remember when to go into screen to click again". Now because of their current functionality they need cooldowns like States edicts because otherwise there is no cost to usage. Loops have both long term and short term viability, cool downs are a band aid to solve a game design problem. I mean they do make you think since you need to weigh your decisions more in case you make the wrong one, or one that’ll bite you in the rear end a couple of years down the line but before the cool down wears off. Even aside from that though, I don’t think everything should be boiled down to what makes the cleanest strategy game; EU4 isn’t chess, immersion is a huge part of it for a lot of people, and from a roleplay/immersion standpoint timers are still really important; their absence in Imperator was a pretty widespread complaint for exactly this reason.
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Sep 5, 2019 13:58
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Who the hell was complaining about arbitrary timers not being in Imperator? "Wait two years doing nothing until I have enough points, click button, get immediate result, wait another two years doing nothing" is exactly what a timer is and exactly what a lot of people WERE complaining about.
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Sep 5, 2019 14:23
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Crazycryodude posted:Who the hell was complaining about arbitrary timers not being in Imperator? "Wait two years doing nothing until I have enough points, click button, get immediate result, wait another two years doing nothing" is exactly what a timer is and exactly what a lot of people WERE complaining about. it certainly feels more immersive to have started a project and have it complete in two years than to save up "points" and spend them all to instantly do something
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Sep 5, 2019 14:36
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Assigning provinces to estates was one of the things I found very unfun for whatever reason, so I'm happy to hear that's gone (if I'm reading right?). Looking forward to the next patch / expansion (?).
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Sep 5, 2019 14:44
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Flavius Aetass posted:it certainly feels more immersive to have started a project and have it complete in two years... I think you misunderstand when I say cooldowns... This is not it at the very least.
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Sep 5, 2019 14:47
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Groogy posted:I think you misunderstand when I say cooldowns... This is not it at the very least. you're right, i missed the context. looking forward to the changes!
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Sep 5, 2019 14:49
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Gobblecoque posted:Personally I think the new estate system looks great and I always kinda disliked everything about the old one.  go Groogy, make EU4 great again
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Sep 5, 2019 15:03
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Tbh the estate system, like colonizing, should have been on the state level, which would make it a hell of a lot more tolerable
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Sep 5, 2019 15:20
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Just go the HOI4 route and have everything except movement moved up to the state level. There are just way too many provinces in the game now.
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Sep 5, 2019 15:47
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KOGAHAZAN!! posted:Is the breakeven point for some of those income boosting buildings not measured in centuries or something? Not really, except perhaps in very poor provinces. In most cases the turnover is under 100 years, and if you are not purposefully constructing the buildings in underdeveloped provinces, you'll see a return on your initial investment is a couple decades tops, usually. It's just easy to misread things because a lot of things are annual, but the income boost of buildings are monthly, so when the tooltip says +0.40 ducats that's 4.8 ducats yearly. Groogy posted:I respectfully disagree. I am hard pressed to find what is fun with assigning out the estates, especially now when I have both systems available to me and I groan every time I interact with the old estates system. I can understand the loss of "tangible presence" which does hold an emotional value to the player, but I don't think compromising here to get "both" would result in better gameplay. What is it they say, compromise means just neither are happy? Just copy MEIOU's system.
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Sep 5, 2019 16:57
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Beefeater1980 posted:One area I think PDX could make some easy gains for the reward loop is visual representation of progress. I love seeing the little soldier models get more modern over time, especially for the cool / fanciful ones, and would love to see something similar for cities and ports etc. Related: the CoT upgrade art is great but I wish it was bigger. KOEI’s historical games use background art quite well. I'd love EU5 to do a lot more of this stuff... of course I wanted EU4 to do it too, so....  I really feel like the game doesn't do enough to represent the sweep of time and change that took place over the period.Like, double down on the 'era' system graphically. Each era having a bunch or new/replacement event graphics for example. Like early game the 'generic naval event' pic is a little caravel on a storm tossed sea, and by the last era the 'generic naval event' pic is a bunch of Napoleonic era ships of the line. Advisor portraits go from Elizabethan lace collars to Regency era fashion. But then, I'd like to see a LOT more focus on making the late game more interesting without the focus on blobbing.
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Sep 5, 2019 18:57
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fuf posted:Assigning provinces to estates was one of the things I found very unfun for whatever reason, so I'm happy to hear that's gone (if I'm reading right?). Looking forward to the next patch / expansion (?). Yeah the individual province management thing was awful, which I say despite liking the old system as a whole. Also: YF-23 posted:Just copy MEIOU's system.
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Sep 5, 2019 19:11
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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Estates should be your internal enemies to match your external ones. You have to start breaking the strength of your nobility before you can really get strong or you wind up like Poland or the Ottomans.
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Sep 5, 2019 20:40
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Groogy posted:I respectfully disagree. I am hard pressed to find what is fun with assigning out the estates, especially now when I have both systems available to me and I groan every time I interact with the old estates system. I can understand the loss of "tangible presence" which does hold an emotional value to the player, but I don't think compromising here to get "both" would result in better gameplay. What is it they say, compromise means just neither are happy? maybe have the estates have a presence in provinces based on their development scores and the national influence of the estate? something that isn't assigned by the player, so it's not a chore (i agree that manually assigned estate control is boring) but still provides character to different areas of the nation. i also agree that estate interactions in the old system are largely boring, but it's not because they're timers. it's because those particular decisions are obvious decisions that you always hit when they refresh, except for the manpower one which you keep in reserve for emergencies. timers provide some of the main strategic decisions in eu4. truce timers especially. sometimes the appropriate way to represent something really is simply through time limitations rather than points. state edict cooldowns force a commitment so that the player doesn't even try to min-max running this edict one month, then another the next month, etc. and the AI doesn't either. this is a good limitation that both makes the game smoother and feels semi-real - a state edict represents a major shift in priorities that can't necessarily be quickly undone. it makes you think because you have to weigh its beneficial effects against the risk of tying up resources that can't be untied on a whim. the player always having the entire decision space open to them is not always a good goal, because the player choosing whether to sacrifice their ability to change their decisions about resource allocation, etc. in exchange for benefits from that commitment is itself an interesting decision. Jazerus fucked around with this message at 22:18 on Sep 5, 2019 |
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Sep 5, 2019 22:10
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YF-23 posted:Just copy MEIOU's system. I have a very opposing philosophy to the MEIOU team. They're lovely people and I talk with them often. You're going to think that I am silly, but I prioritize that the game actually... you know runs Groogy fucked around with this message at 23:51 on Sep 5, 2019 |
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Sep 5, 2019 23:49
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And actually releases, MEIOU 3.0 doesn't look like it's coming out this year
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Sep 5, 2019 23:58
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YF-23 posted:Other than sailors and state maintenance, what buildings do you feel aren't worth spending money on? Manufactories are often not actually worth it, they appear a bit late, cost so much that you wont be able to afford them right away and then when you can afford them they only pay back 100 years later, when you really don't need the payback anymore. The tax, production and trade buildings require an excel sheet to see if they are even worth it and most often aren't. The manpower building is the one that most often makes sense, but someone wrote a funny formula how many years worth of mercs you can hire instead of building that..... Basically they are all kinda underwhelming, which is why I keep swimming in building slots these days. The limited amount of building slots was supposed to make the choice for a building meaningful, but because the buildings are so bad that falls away.
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Sep 6, 2019 06:13
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Manufactories also increase trade value to the point where they repay themselves much sooner than their tool-tip would suggest.
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Sep 6, 2019 06:55
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Groogy posted:I respectfully disagree. I am hard pressed to find what is fun with assigning out the estates, especially now when I have both systems available to me and I groan every time I interact with the old estates system. I can understand the loss of "tangible presence" which does hold an emotional value to the player, but I don't think compromising here to get "both" would result in better gameplay. What is it they say, compromise means just neither are happy? Even if it wasn't fun it was one of the rare systems that interacted with the geography. Most of the government interactions feel like they exist in a parallel universe not really caring about what kind of country they rule. You have things like Iberian Orders or Consecrate Metropoly but those things are fire and forget, they're more like an additional building. Giving out provinces to estates might not have been great or impactful, but this is one of a few decisions that interact with a lot of systems (you care about estate influence, loyalty, province autonomy, unrest and specific stats depending on the estate) and are sort of dynamic, as in the most cases it would often make sense to call of estate later. But I understand that this approach might be out of place in EU4, which is sorta about adding a lot of plates to spin, not making any specific plate more important.
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Sep 6, 2019 08:20
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Jazerus posted:state edict cooldowns force a commitment so that the player doesn't even try to min-max running this edict one month, then another the next month, etc. and the AI doesn't either It also forces you to forget that your institution spread/development/missionary edict wasn't doing anything except costing you money for the last 10 years. I don't see why there isn't an option to turn off edict with the game saying "You know it'll only actually turn off 11 months later, but don't worry it will stop draining your treasury after that".
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Sep 6, 2019 08:24
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There have been plenty of times when I've had a slow period and I'm trying to optimise my nation because I'm barely breaking even after a big war with lots of loans. It's immensely satisfying to figure an optimal setup of estates and suddenly ive got a big income that I unlocked because there was a trading province I could give to my burghers.
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Sep 6, 2019 08:31
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manufactories are one of those things that are theoretically great but in practice worth less ducats than just beating the poo poo out of rivals when they're small. I could use the ducats they make to help me beat prussia in 150 years, or I could buy mercs and make sure there is no prussia in 150 years TheFlyingLlama fucked around with this message at 09:12 on Sep 6, 2019 |
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Sep 6, 2019 09:10
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I like manufactories when I have trade companies across the coast of Africa and literally have so much money it's about to create some kind of overflow glitch. Also those trade companies should flow backwards, it's bullshit that my hyper Qing empire needs to move their center of trade to get the full benefits of a trade company. Why is Beijing not good enough for those greedy merchants anyway Don Gato fucked around with this message at 09:19 on Sep 6, 2019 |
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Sep 6, 2019 09:17
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Groogy posted:I have a very opposing philosophy to the MEIOU team. They're lovely people and I talk with them often. You're going to think that I am silly, but I prioritize that the game actually... you know runs I was mostly joking, but their take on the estate system was really good. For those not familiar: In MEIOU estates are automatically assigned to every province and act as states-within-states, with the income that gets lost to province autonomy in the provinces they control going to their own treasuries, which they themselves use. They have certain privileges (reflected as negative modifiers for the country) and the mod has a lot of trying to negotiate yourself in a position where you can revoke those privileges for the benefit of the crown without them getting pissed off and such. It creates a constant back-and-forth that feels natural and is satisfying to play right.
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Sep 6, 2019 10:13
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YF-23 posted:I was mostly joking, but their take on the estate system was really good. Not to mention that the estates improve their property with all the cash that they deny you.
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Sep 6, 2019 16:26
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The difference is MEIOU's design goals are to be more simulation/less boardgame compared to vanilla. You don't have as much power to make instant changes since you have internal politics to deal with, a population that wants autonomy, etc. Vanilla EU4 is about giving players more control with fun and impactful decisions to make. They're both pretty good philosophies for what they want to be but you have to stay in your lane, a compromise means straying from your design goals and like Groogy said you could end up with something nobody likes.
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Sep 6, 2019 16:35
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OperaMouse posted:Not to mention that the estates improve their property with all the cash that they deny you. And raise their own armies, which they'd be happy to lend to you, for a price of course...
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Sep 6, 2019 17:33
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bees everywhere posted:The difference is MEIOU's design goals are to be more simulation/less boardgame compared to vanilla. You don't have as much power to make instant changes since you have internal politics to deal with, a population that wants autonomy, etc. Vanilla EU4 is about giving players more control with fun and impactful decisions to make. They're both pretty good philosophies for what they want to be but you have to stay in your lane, a compromise means straying from your design goals and like Groogy said you could end up with something nobody likes. No, for sure. But I think the general gist can be adapted. "Every province is automatically assigned to an estate and that forms the base of internal politics for the player interacts with" is a great idea that you can work with and adapt for a boardgamey style of play. At least, insofar as "internal politics" means you have entities to interact with within your state in the same way that war and diplomacy is interacting with entities outside of your state, it provides a framework that the player has to work to gain control over. As Jazerus said earlier, the estates having control over provinces gives them a "face", it ties them to something the player understands and has attachment to. By the end of a vanilla game the estates might as well be just the buttons on their menu. Now we will have a more abstracted pie chart that might kind of tickle a similar nerve, but it's not the same as the "THOSE FUCKERS/OUR poo poo" vibe you get when you look at the map and see the provinces the estate that you hate has control over.
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Sep 6, 2019 19:35
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V for Vegas posted:And actually releases, MEIOU 3.0 doesn't look like it's coming out this year Still doing better than me 
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Sep 7, 2019 00:19
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ilitarist posted:It also forces you to forget that your institution spread/development/missionary edict wasn't doing anything except costing you money for the last 10 years. yeah i can't disagree there
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Sep 7, 2019 00:25
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StealthArcher posted:Still doing better than me https://lgbtrc.usc.edu/support/comingout/tips/
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Sep 7, 2019 09:24
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I meant my mod, but the sympathy is appreciated. 
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Sep 7, 2019 10:07
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Lmfao that's what I assumed too
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Sep 7, 2019 13:16
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I just got through with my first playthrough of CK2, and I want to convert it to EU4. I did the basic conversion, but there are some tweaks I'd like to do my countries National Ideas (it gave me Crusader Jerusalem, and if you've been reading my posts in the CK2 thread you'd know why that might not be appropriate). Is there a guide to modifying the conversion file? Also I'm not sure where the mod is being saved. SirPhoebos fucked around with this message at 17:32 on Sep 7, 2019 |
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Sep 7, 2019 16:32
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Got a neat start with Aragon in hard difficulty. I usually start smaller nations but the new patch is Iberia and I wasn't gonna pick Castile and I didn't want to just colonize as a mostly peaceful Portugal so in I went with Aragon. I opened by doing kissing up to Austria and Castile and no-CBing Byzantium. My timing turned out to be impeccable as I just barely beat the Turks to the punch and when I annexed Constantinople and vassalized the rest I got dragged into a defensive war against them which Castile and Austria immediately joined and proceeded to whip them all up and down Greece whilst I mostly did nothing because I effed up and got my army wiped due to overconfidence. Got the wedding almost as early as possible and am hoping I get really lucky and Castile gets the inheritance (if they even can whilst my bitch). I think I'm gonna go for Mare Nostrum. I've already killed the final boss and France won't be too big a problem once I have Greece, Anatolia, Italy, and Iberia under my belt. I eat your peninsulas, I eat 'em right up! Current gamestate is kinda dull though. I am personally weak despite having powerful PUs but you can't necessarily rely on them to not be really stupid. Most of the good targets are butt buddies with Austria or France too and right now I need Austria too much to piss them off. I might try for Emperorship but I've never been good at managing to get elected whilst not a part of the HRE.
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Sep 7, 2019 16:49
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I got back into V2 because of chitchat in this thread. Are there any tips for forming the South German Confederation as Bavaria? I've made attempts at this before, but always get my face caved in by goddamn Prussia. 
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