|
Archonex posted:If V5 ever gets a Hunter splat spin off under the new management then it's going to be game #1 to play for monster slaying and pissing off CHUD and alt-right/neo-nazi types. Assuming it doesn't get CHUDified as well, that is. So Reckoning basically. I've been reading the core recently and boy oh boy does that book have some....tonal issues. It has not aged well.
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2019 18:01
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 27, 2024 17:36 |
|
|
joylessdivision posted:So Reckoning basically. I've been reading the core recently and boy oh boy does that book have some....tonal issues. It has not aged well. Are you talking about Reckoning or Masquerade? Because looking back both had issues even if the community and a lot of other material was inclusive as heck. I mean, the whole gypsy book and KOTE pretty much sums up a good amount of Masquerade's issues. Reckoning basically codified the whole "noble bigot" hunter concept in supernatural horror. Or at least was there during it's formative setup during the 90's. I remember it was a thing that more than a few hunters would straight up just murder the gently caress out of anything remotely supernatural they'd see, to the point where a lot of the fiction and fluff painted them as being justified killers. Granted, most of the setting was dark as gently caress. But when your heroes are straight up mag-dumping into a woman's brain pain after she explains that she's a mage, she offers to help you, and you have a friendly conversation with them that shows they aren't hurting anyone you've gone from things being morally grey on both sides to both sides just being primarily made up of loving assholes. Sadly, from what little i've had a chance to see of the "Blankbody" stuff it looks like V5 is going with that route too instead of taking the more nuanced route that Requiem and NWoD/CofD Hunter did. Not that it's going to stop conservative tabletop gamers from screeching. If the chan's flipped their poo poo about progressivism "infecting" Vampire due to stuff like Rudi and his army being featured however they'll sure as poo poo lose their poo poo over some Ayn Rand libertarian vampire jerking off over exterminating the poor being staked and decapitated Dracula style. Edit: I should add that the lack of nuance is on both sides. The Anarch's book is filled to the brim with political stereotypes and horror cliches. Archonex fucked around with this message at 18:49 on Sep 6, 2019 |
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2019 18:44
|
|
|
It's been decades since I've read it, but I remember the lore being presented in a egregiously epistolary format that was a personal worst for White Wolf. It was like a trash pull of BBS printouts, post-its, polaroids of fake tribal tattoos, handwritten notes, etc etc. E: Oh god the chatlogs.
|
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2019 18:49
|
|
|
moths posted:It's been decades since I've read it, but I remember the lore being presented in a egregiously epistolary format that was a personal worst for White Wolf. Fake tribal tattoo's sounds about right for the OWoD, so this seems legit.  Hell, even V5 features a lot of art that is basically "What if gothic punk was still popular?" mixed with "how edgelordy can we make this picture be?". This isn't even remotely the worst of the art in V5, by the way. It's so bad you can google it and probably get a few examples. It's not even the funny sort of bad either like that "70's era Invictus Blackula style prince menacing the white vampires." picture from Requiem. It's just cringe inducing. The whole post-its, polaroids, and handwritten notes thing can work well if done right however. Requiem and NWoD Hunter did it well. But yeah, I wouldn't put it past them to gently caress up older works like that. Especially if it was done early on in the company's history. Though that makes me wonder just how early was OWoD Hunter compared to the other game lines? Archonex fucked around with this message at 18:58 on Sep 6, 2019 |
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2019 18:51
|
|
|
Archonex posted:Though that makes me wonder just how early was OWoD Hunter compared to the other game lines? It was definitely the darkest OWoD game, and because one of them started with you dead in an underworld where souls were currency/building material that is saying something. I really loved Hunter, but you really had to lean into what it was trying to do. Everything is awful, and you couldn't really do the fun whimsical stories you could get away with in Mage/Vampire/Werewolf. Honestly, the tone was very consistent if your Hunter books had either all the text redacted, or all the art cut out. Both at once was... Something.
|
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2019 18:58
|
|
|
HtR was next to last, followed by Orpheus. It never got a 20th edition.
|
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2019 18:59
|
|
|
moths posted:HtR was next to last, followed by Orpheus. Really? drat, for some reason I thought it was one of the early ones. Guess they've got no excuse for loving up then.
|
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2019 19:11
|
|
|
Vampire 1st edition was 1991. Vampire revised/3rd edition was 1998. Hunter was 1999. Demon was 2002. Orpheus was 2003.
|
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2019 19:12
|
|
|
Lord_Hambrose posted:It was definitely the darkest OWoD game, and because one of them started with you dead in an underworld where souls were currency/building material that is saying something. I really loved Hunter, but you really had to lean into what it was trying to do. Everything is awful, and you couldn't really do the fun whimsical stories you could get away with in Mage/Vampire/Werewolf. And then the Hunter: The Recoking video games were Gauntlet Legends clones.
|
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2019 19:18
|
|
|
Reckoning wasn't all-in on "just kill them all and let Caine sort them out." It had nine different Creeds based on different approaches to the hunt, which varied from "kill all monsters" to "save all monsters" to "well, I'll just decide for myself who needs killing." The main problem was that they just kind of threw all that stuff into a box and didn't tell you anything IC, so it was hard to figure out what to do with it. Like, the mages hunters were dealing with were clearly meant to be the same mages who show up in Ascension, but hunters aren't really allowed to get the down-low on the Ascension War, because if they did they'd basically be assimilated into Mage, so... they're stuck permanently having no idea what's going on. The same goes for their interactions with every other gameline. Also the Hunter books often had extremely good writing, but they tended to be a bit repetitive in turns of "hunter tries to fight evil, hunter succeeds a bit, hunter gets their nose pushed in because they have no idea what they're dealing with." The THEY LIVE portion of Reckoning was pretty tight and well-conceived, but the part where they actually junction into the greater World of Darkness sort of trailed off into ?????.
|
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2019 19:33
|
|
|
Kurieg posted:And then the Hunter: The Recoking video games were Gauntlet Legends clones. And super fun if you had three friends.
|
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2019 19:33
|
|
|
Archonex posted:Are you talking about Reckoning or Masquerade? Because looking back both had issues even if the community and a lot of other material was inclusive as heck. I mean, the whole gypsy book and KOTE pretty much sums up a good amount of Masquerade's issues. "Noble Bigot" is a great term for it thank you. A couple of things stood out as I've been reading it, the first was the "Hey, you don't like those mopey fags with fangs or the tree huggers so this is the game where you get to blast em with a shotgun! YAY YOU" is a really really loving weird thing to put in your book. Like I get it, you're trying to draw in people who weren't interested in the other games but yeah, that whole blurb was really weird. Avengers are the ones who seem to fit the "Noble Bigot" thing to a T, with the book directly saying "White supremacists tend to be avengers" or something to that effect (I'm too lazy to grab the book out of my bag right now). The other thing that sticks out is the whole "You've been awakened to the reality that The Others are in charge" which in 1999 could easily be played off as your typical conspiracy theory nonsense, but in 2019 when basically every conspiracy can be traced back to "The Jews Did It", makes a loooooot of that stuff read like straight up nazi poo poo. I'm genuinely giving consideration to just putting the book back on my shelf and abandoning my idea of running classic Hunter and just burying my head in Vigil instead. I will say to Reckoning's credit, some of the art work is nice and it's got moments of "Oh wow what a cool idea" and the fiction bits are pretty solid (I'll even go to bat for the Reckoning short story collection being pretty good for RPG fiction) but yeah, the more I read it, the more things start to stand out as being kinda gross and uncomfortable in a way that isn't fun.
|
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2019 19:54
|
|
|
Incidentally, I mentioned this earlier but I think it kind of fell under the radar, they just updated a huge selection of the old World of Darkness PDFs on DriveThru, so that a bunch of crappy scans got turned into nice original PDFs, including all of Reckoning (and a huge swathe of Mage and Changeling). So, if you want to check it out, you're now much less likely to get a headache. Seriously, there should be a lot more fuss about being able to get a decent copy of The Book of Worlds, also known as "the book that was so good it made people hate Revised for blowing it up", not to mention stuff like Digital Web 2.0, Dragons of the East, and the actual corebook for the first edition of Masquerade.
|
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2019 20:04
|
|
|
Rand Brittain posted:Incidentally, I mentioned this earlier but I think it kind of fell under the radar, they just updated a huge selection of the old World of Darkness PDFs on DriveThru, so that a bunch of crappy scans got turned into nice original PDFs, including all of Reckoning (and a huge swathe of Mage and Changeling). So, if you want to check it out, you're now much less likely to get a headache. I actually did go check into this the other day after seeing you mention it because I desperately want a physical copy of Masquerade Revised but DTRPG only sells PDF and the couple times I've tried to order a used copy online I either can't find it or I end up with another copy of 2nd edition (gently caress me for using the right ISBN right?) I was also pricing Reckoning books to fill out my library before I started getting grossed out by it.
|
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2019 20:20
|
|
|
They just updated Masquerade Revised from scan to original electronic files last week, so you can be pretty confident that it's going to get POD in the near future. Same for all of Reckoning. They mentioned a while back that it's now possible to fix the issue but I'm not sure yet if it's going to happen (because they'd have to reproof their entire catalog). I hope this means it's happening (since they also updated a bunch of old files), because I'd really like to be able to PoD stuff like Mage Revised, and the full bleed hurts that a lot more than it does, say, Vampire.
|
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2019 20:52
|
|
|
Archonex posted:Also for creating actual --- and i'm not making GBS threads you --- libertarian frat vampires based in Harvard that are at least partially convinced that Ayn Rand was a vampire herself since she was such a lovely parasitic human being. Mind you, the in character writer speaks of her in awe, like she's some visionary philospher instead of the hypocrite and all around rear end in a top hat she actually was. This is trash but it's also the most accurate description of Boston ever included in an RPG.
|
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2019 21:34
|
|
level "No, no, stop writing! You're only digging yourself deeper!" moments.) is said while they scheme to John Galt the poors and minorities of the world.
|
Rand Brittain posted:They just updated Masquerade Revised from scan to original electronic files last week, so you can be pretty confident that it's going to get POD in the near future. Same for all of Reckoning. Noice.
|
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2019 21:37
|
|
|
On consideration I think the main problem with Reckoning is that Imbued get the worst of both worlds. They’re sufficiently supernatural to make their claim to be “normal” or “human” and their agenda to “inherit the earth” into obvious bullshit, but they’re also sufficiently mundane that all their powers suck.
|
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2019 22:58
|
|
|
Rand Brittain posted:On consideration I think the main problem with Reckoning is that Imbued get the worst of both worlds. They’re sufficiently supernatural to make their claim to be “normal” or “human” and their agenda to “inherit the earth” into obvious bullshit, but they’re also sufficiently mundane that all their powers suck. Are the edges that bad? I haven't gotten that far to see what they can actually do. I did get far enough to ask "What the hell is the point of the Martyr Creed?" Because I do not understand their purpose. Every other Creed makes some sense (Innocents seem like another not particularly useful team member to have around) but Martyr is kinda baffling.
|
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2019 23:06
|
|
|
joylessdivision posted:Are the edges that bad? I haven't gotten that far to see what they can actually do. I think some of them are actually worse than not using a magical power at all? Generally speaking the basic hunter template makes you extremely resistant to supernatural mind control, but their combat prowess is incredibly weak even if they specialize in it. They also have powers that go from one dot to five dots in the corebook, but it's literally impossible to buy the five-dot powers. They actually put powers you couldn't buy in the corebook, on purpose. It only became possible to buy them towards the end of the line, and you have to become an NPC to do so.
|
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2019 23:16
|
|
|
The conspiracy stuff being built on antisemitism was still true in the 90s, it was just way easier to not notice.
|
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2019 23:17
|
|
|
Honestly I think the best way to actually do Reckoning, as it's appeared in this thread, would be to make it a really simple template: You hear a voice saying inherit the night, and become undetectably immune to illusions/mind control, and gain Unseen Sense: Monsters (based on your personal definition of monster, no less). That's it. Then you run it in Hunter: The Vigil. Or you just run Hunter: The Vigil, without the first part.
|
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2019 23:19
|
|
|
joylessdivision posted:Are the edges that bad? I haven't gotten that far to see what they can actually do. I did get far enough to ask "What the hell is the point of the Martyr Creed?" Because I do not understand their purpose. For all your "HtR seems...bad" and is, needs.
|
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2019 23:30
|
|
|
Joe Slowboat posted:Honestly I think the best way to actually do Reckoning, as it's appeared in this thread, would be to make it a really simple template: You hear a voice saying inherit the night, and become undetectably immune to illusions/mind control, and gain Unseen Sense: Monsters (based on your personal definition of monster, no less). That's it. You hear a voice saying inherit the night or some other catchy phrase and it's the beginning of the mystery play in which you sign your name to a supernal watchtower.
|
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2019 23:42
|
|
|
Rand Brittain posted:I think some of them are actually worse than not using a magical power at all? Yeah, HtR could use an anniversary edition just to have competent powers. I love the game and yet like with Martyr spending an entire health level to increase your strength by, like, a success or something underwhelming is no bueno. Which made this weird notion that Hunters were somehow overpowered very odd to me. Death Fog (I forget the real name) and Cleave are... kinda okay, but neither do the all-powerful aggravated damage so a lot of gribblies are just going to laugh at you as they take you apart joint by joint.
|
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2019 23:57
|
|
|
Reckoning was more than a little frustrating when it promised humans hunting the rest of the WoD and then delivered low-key xMen. Although the art was awesome in that the heroes had realistic bodytypes, which was the first time I saw that in an RPG. They also disrupted the gently caress out of the VtES cardgame.
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2019 00:03
|
|
|
Ferrinus posted:You hear a voice saying inherit the night or some other catchy phrase and it's the beginning of the mystery play in which you sign your name to a supernal watchtower. Well, yes, Obrimoi are in fact the best way to do Reckoning but I didn't want to just suborn it all to Mage again.
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2019 00:47
|
|
|
Mors Rattus posted:The conspiracy stuff being built on antisemitism was still true in the 90s, it was just way easier to not notice. That's totally fair and in my defense I was too young in the 90's to pay much attention to conspiracy theories. Joe Slowboat posted:Honestly I think the best way to actually do Reckoning, as it's appeared in this thread, would be to make it a really simple template: You hear a voice saying inherit the night, and become undetectably immune to illusions/mind control, and gain Unseen Sense: Monsters (based on your personal definition of monster, no less). That's it. This is likely what I'm going to do. Probably slip Reckoning back on the shelf when I get home and just let it sit there with KOTE. Yes, I own a copy of KOTE. It was $4 and it meant my order got free shipping. Chernobyl Peace Prize posted:https://projects.inklesspen.com/fatal-and-friends/night10194/hunter-the-reckoning/ Sweet, love me some WoD F&F write ups.
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2019 01:09
|
|
|
I still got a lot of lvoe for Reckoning. I actually really liked the In-Character writing, compared to most other oWoD lines. I feel like I could do a Marxist analysis of it really easily. Imagine Slavoz Zizek as an Imbued Visionary.
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2019 03:49
|
|
|
.....so Fyodor?
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2019 05:22
|
|
|
Oberst posted:Have you considered not being so sexy? I've requested a ban for this post. Do not post in this thread any more. If you do, you will be banned again.
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2019 05:24
|
|
|
MonsieurChoc posted:I still got a lot of lvoe for Reckoning. I actually really liked the In-Character writing, compared to most other oWoD lines. After finishing up the F&F write up, I'm not going to bother finishing my read through, although I agree with you the in character writing is good. But man after seeing how broken the mechanics and powers are along with the wildly uneven tone and "Avengers tend to be Nazis" thing have really soured me on it. At least the Xbox version of the first game is backwards compatible and pretty fun even played solo. Guess I'll give Vigil a proper read now. Also the Horror Recognition Guide was a great read even without the full Vigil context so I'm looking forward to giving that a second read after Vigil.
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2019 05:26
|
|
|
You can run any element of Reckoning you care to salvage inside Vigil. The BBS stuff is in the core, and the out-of-your-depth stuff is standard for tiers one and two. As with Requiem, it can completely eclipse its predecessor.
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2019 05:33
|
|
|
Y'all are probably gonna give me the stink eye for this, but I'm in the process of writing a fan crossover supplement between Werewolf the Forsaken and Princess the Hopeful titled By the Power of the Moon! I'm curious about what subject manner and topics I should cover for this. I already have some general ideas, such as Princess/Uratha interactions, new Gifts/powers/etc interfacing with each other's respective enemy factions (Magical Girls fighting spirits, werewolves performing the Sacred Hunt against creatures of Darkness, etc), a mini-bestiary, and possibly a Unified Cosmology tying together concepts from the two sourcebooks into a more put-together whole. The reason I'm doing this is because out of all the official splats, the "transforming spirit cops" aspect of Werewolf in preventing otherworldly horrors from loving up the world of humanity is thematically close to what Princesses do, save replace the Pure with Twilight Queens, spirits and hosts with the creatures of Darkness, etc. Libertad! fucked around with this message at 07:42 on Sep 7, 2019 |
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2019 07:40
|
|
|
Oh yeah, Vigil owns so much and is way better than Reckoning. But I still have nostalgia for it.
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2019 07:40
|
|
|
moths posted:They also disrupted the gently caress out of the VtES cardgame. Indeed, thankfully nowadays are very rarely seen. Screw the Imbued.
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2019 07:56
|
|
|
Werewoofs are already Sailor Moon though. One of my players made this today (he rules):
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2019 07:56
|
|
|
I laughed out loud at 'Sailor Scouts do not uphold this'.
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2019 11:32
|
|
|
Pouring one out for our WoD friend oberst. He loved vampire
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2019 14:22
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 27, 2024 17:36 |
|
|
a shame he didn't love a good game
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2019 15:06
|
|
