Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us money per month for bills, and since we don't believe in showing ads to our users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
 
  • Post
  • Reply
BGrifter
Mar 16, 2007

Winner of Something Awful PS5 thread's Posting Excellence Award June 2022

Congratulations!

RBC posted:

i dont really see how chicfila is worse than any other global fast food chain



Chick-fil-a leans heavily into the religious angle. They close all their stores on Sunday and put Christian propaganda in their kids meals.

They present themselves as a morally superior product targeting white Christians as part of their branding. It’s not super surprising their rampant homophobia gets more of a reaction than other fast food chains who profess to be neutral and take great pains to avoid controversy.

That said, it’s not like going to McDonalds or Burger King instead is some great moral victory that needs to be celebrated on the Internet.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Starks
Sep 24, 2006

Firing workers for being Muslim, donating to conversion therapy, advocating publicly against same sex marriage and abortion. They even want to ban divorce. The owners are doing their best to roll back LGBTQ and women’s rights and they’re being completely open about it. That’s a step beyond the normal profit-driven evil of most corporations in my book since it’s just purely ideological.

So yeah no ethical consumption under capitalism but if you ARE going to do it maybe get Popeyes instead.

RBC
Nov 23, 2007

IM STILL SPENDING MONEY FROM 1888

Starks posted:

Firing workers for being Muslim, donating to conversion therapy, advocating publicly against same sex marriage and abortion. They even want to ban divorce. The owners are doing their best to roll back LGBTQ and women’s rights and they’re being completely open about it. That’s a step beyond the normal profit-driven evil of most corporations in my book since it’s just purely ideological.

So yeah no ethical consumption under capitalism but if you ARE going to do it maybe get Popeyes instead.

really doesnt seem any worse than what mcdonalds or burger king does to their workers and the environment

Helsing
Aug 23, 2003

DON'T POST IN THE ELECTION THREAD UNLESS YOU :love::love::love: JOE BIDEN

zapplez posted:

actually no, there are degrees of terribleness and we should in fact publicly shame a company that is rabidly anti-gay.

But not companies that are rabidly anti-worker?

RBC
Nov 23, 2007

IM STILL SPENDING MONEY FROM 1888
Conglomerates being greedy and abusing their employees is more culturally acceptable than actively opposing human rights I guess. Just pointing that out.

Helsing
Aug 23, 2003

DON'T POST IN THE ELECTION THREAD UNLESS YOU :love::love::love: JOE BIDEN
It's a very blatant example of how we naturalizes the mistreat of workers and act like it is completely legitimate as long as it only attacks them in their capacity as workers.

Syfe
Jun 12, 2006


BGrifter posted:

Chick-fil-a leans heavily into the religious angle. They close all their stores on Sunday and put Christian propaganda in their kids meals.

They present themselves as a morally superior product targeting white Christians as part of their branding. It’s not super surprising their rampant homophobia gets more of a reaction than other fast food chains who profess to be neutral and take great pains to avoid controversy.

That said, it’s not like going to McDonalds or Burger King instead is some great moral victory that needs to be celebrated on the Internet.

I've been trying to tell this to a coworker for months, I believe he simply doesn't care though. "But... but... their chicken is so good!" get hosed man.

Rockstar Massacre
Mar 2, 2009

i only have a crazy life
because i make risky decisions
from a position of
unreasonable self-confidence
i feel it's obvious that it's important to react strongly when a corporation takes such hardline stance and against equal treatment for vulnerable people.

of course, 'react strongly' shouldn't be picking a different brand, it should be protest until closure and when that fails, burn it to the ground.

McDonalds or a&w or whatever require a different tack since they already won, and are way past having a single entry into the market.

you still shouldn't spend money there though.

Starks
Sep 24, 2006

I mean it’s not like chick fil a is some model of labour rights so the “what about A&W” stuff just makes no sense. They are both bad in the same ways but also one wants to eliminate gay people from earth

flakeloaf
Feb 26, 2003

Still better than android clock

It's not whataboutism, it's "oh and also"ism.

One guy being bad doesn't make the other guy good. Lots of them can be bad. It's okay for you to have a threshold of badness and refuse to patronize anyone who crosses it, for your own reasons that are your own.

If your purpose is less about finding lunch and more about publicly declaring corporations to be poo poo, well, be ready for the "those things you have came from society" guy

flakeloaf
Feb 26, 2003

Still better than android clock

Helsing posted:

It's a very blatant example of how we naturalizes the mistreat of workers and act like it is completely legitimate as long as it only attacks them in their capacity as workers.

Someday I'm gonna work myself out of the working class and then it'll be my turn to poo poo on the schmucks.

See also: Capricious rear end in a top hat Senior NCMs.

vincentpricesboner
Sep 3, 2006

by LITERALLY AN ADMIN

Helsing posted:

But not companies that are rabidly anti-worker?

Why not both? We can also hate the poor pay and conditions of fast food chains. Chic fill a also pays like poo poo like the rest of them

Hexigrammus
May 22, 2006

Cheech Wizard stories are clean, wholesome, reflective truths that go great with the marijuana munchies and a blow job.
We have Chic-fil-a in Canada?

Wish I had the money to fly there and hand out copies of Margaret Atwood's sequel to the Handmaid's Tale.

Ardent Communist
Oct 17, 2010

ALLAH! MU'AMMAR! LIBYA WA BAS!
I'm lucky in most of the brands that I somehow develop a taste for tend to be not totally terrible. At least Quiznos kills fascists, after all.

Pinterest Mom
Jun 9, 2009

Hexigrammus posted:

We have Chic-fil-a in Canada?

Wish I had the money to fly there and hand out copies of Margaret Atwood's sequel to the Handmaid's Tale.

Newly opened in TO

and yes
https://twitter.com/Harry1T6/status/1169999756334182405

Femtosecond
Aug 2, 2003

https://twitter.com/derrickokeefe/status/1170333331545673728

Archive of the article here: Mark Hecht: Ethnic diversity harms a country's social trust, economic well-being, argues instructor


Readers of the Canada Debt Bubble Thread will know that this sort of racist trolling from the Vancouver Sun is nothing new. Douglas Todd regularly muses about the impact of foreign students and immigrants (too many???) on Vancouver's housing market, but this time the op ed section went overboard and drew lots of attention to themselves.

xtal
Jan 9, 2011

by Fluffdaddy
I posted this in the Toronto thread and decided to share it here. To make me feel better about Chick-fil-A I donated $250 to the 519 (a non-profit in Toronto's gay village) and I'll donate more if some other people make donations that are financially sensible to them.

xtal fucked around with this message at 20:25 on Sep 7, 2019

McGavin
Sep 18, 2012

Ardent Communist posted:

I'm lucky in most of the brands that I somehow develop a taste for tend to be not totally terrible. At least Quiznos kills fascists, after all.

E. coli is pretty indiscriminate in who it kills.

infernal machines
Oct 11, 2012

we monitor many frequencies. we listen always. came a voice, out of the babel of tongues, speaking to us. it played us a mighty dub.

xtal posted:

I posted this in the Toronto thread and decided to share it here. To make me feel better about Chick-fil-A I donated $250 to the 519 (a non-profit in Toronto's gay village) and I'll donate more if some other people make donations that are financially sensible to them.



I think this is by far the most effective thing you can do in the face of a mediocre chicken chain run by hateful assholes opening up in Toronto. This will have a direct effect on the community in a far more useful way than standing outside a restaurant with a sign for a few hours.

Maneck
Sep 11, 2011



No love for the correct answer in this thread.

Franks Happy Place
Mar 15, 2011

It is by weed alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the dank of Sapho that thoughts acquire speed, the lips acquire stains, stains become a warning. It is by weed alone I set my mind in motion.

Femtosecond posted:

https://twitter.com/derrickokeefe/status/1170333331545673728

Archive of the article here: Mark Hecht: Ethnic diversity harms a country's social trust, economic well-being, argues instructor


Readers of the Canada Debt Bubble Thread will know that this sort of racist trolling from the Vancouver Sun is nothing new. Douglas Todd regularly muses about the impact of foreign students and immigrants (too many???) on Vancouver's housing market, but this time the op ed section went overboard and drew lots of attention to themselves.

I'm honestly still reeling at this. They actually printed a full on blood and soil white nationalist diatribe in the print edition of both metro dailies.

It's coming to Canada, folks. Time to start doing fash punching exercises so I don't break any fingers.

apatheticman
May 13, 2003

Wedge Regret

Franks Happy Place posted:

I'm honestly still reeling at this. They actually printed a full on blood and soil white nationalist diatribe in the print edition of both metro dailies.

It's coming to Canada, folks. Time to start doing fash punching exercises so I don't break any fingers.

Mark Hecht teaches human, political, and conservation geography at Mount Royal University in Calgary and has written extensively on issues of national identity and resource conflict.

Oh cool....

infernal machines
Oct 11, 2012

we monitor many frequencies. we listen always. came a voice, out of the babel of tongues, speaking to us. it played us a mighty dub.

Franks Happy Place posted:

I'm honestly still reeling at this. They actually printed a full on blood and soil white nationalist diatribe in the print edition of both metro dailies.

It's coming to Canada, folks. Time to start doing fash punching exercises so I don't break any fingers.

Postmedia (largely via the Sun properties) has been leaning hard into xenophobia and fash-lite for quite some time. They've just decided to drop any pretense now. I think it's going to take a while for the less poo poo Canadian media to get over their decorous nature and start calling this out.

RealityWarCriminal
Aug 10, 2016

:o:

Franks Happy Place posted:

I'm honestly still reeling at this. They actually printed a full on blood and soil white nationalist diatribe in the print edition of both metro dailies.

It's coming to Canada, folks. Time to start doing fash punching exercises so I don't break any fingers.

Tape your hands

Furnaceface
Oct 21, 2004




Reality Sinner posted:

Tape your hands

vyelkin
Jan 2, 2011

Franks Happy Place posted:

I'm honestly still reeling at this. They actually printed a full on blood and soil white nationalist diatribe in the print edition of both metro dailies.

It's coming to Canada, folks. Time to start doing fash punching exercises so I don't break any fingers.

It's also, crucially, wrong as poo poo. If you read that article and don't already have an opinion on the issue you might come away thinking "wow this guy is a professor and he's citing studies and scientific literature that back up what he's saying he must be on to something".

He isn't. He's full of poo poo.

quote:

James Laurence, Katharina Schmid & Miles Hewstone (2019) Ethnic diversity, ethnic threat, and social cohesion: (re)-evaluating the role of perceived out-group threat and prejudice in the relationship between community ethnic diversity and intra-community cohesion, Journal of Ethnic and Migration Studies, 45:3, 395-418, DOI: 10.1080/1369183X.2018.1490638

Abstract: Research frequently demonstrates diverse communities exhibit lower intra-community cohesion. Recent studies suggest there is little evidence perceived ethnic threat plays a role in this relationship. This paper re-examines the roles of ethnic threat and prejudice in the diversity/cohesion relationship. First, we test threat/prejudice as conceptualised in the literature: as mediators of diversity’s effect. Second, we test a reformulation of the roles of threat/prejudice: as moderators of diversity’s effect. Applying multi-level models to cross sectional and longitudinal data of White British individuals across England and Oldham (a unique English town case-study) we find neighbour-trust lower in diverse communities. However, perceived threat/prejudice does not mediate this relationship. Instead, we find perceived-threat/prejudice moderate diversity’s impact on neighbour-trust. The result is diversity only reduces neighbour-trust among individuals who already viewed out-groups as threatening. Longitudinal analysis confirms the importance of out-group attitudes in the diversity/neighbour-trust relationship. In diverse communities, residents whose out-group attitudes improve, or worsen, become more, or less, trusting of their neighbours. However, in homogeneous communities, changes in out-group attitudes are not linked to changes in neighbour-trust. We therefore argue and demonstrate that perceived-threat emerges from other societal processes (such as socio-economic precariousness) and it is when individuals who already view out-groups as threatening experience diverse neighbourhoods that local cohesion declines.

That's an article from this year arguing that increasing diversity in a community only negatively affects social trust among people who already find outsiders threatening. In other words, racists get less trusting when people of other races move in, shock of shocks. But their final conclusion, that perceived threat emerges from other societal processes like economic precariousness, fits perfectly with a wealth of recent research on inequality that demonstrates that as inequality rises, people become more socially anxious and less socially trusting. You will note that the countries he cites in that op-ed as successfully navigating diversity (supposedly by forcing assimilation or ethnic segregation) are countries with low inequality, like the Scandinavian countries or Switzerland or Japan or Hungary, while the countries he cites as unsuccessfully navigating diversity (supposedly by allowing ethnic mixing), like the USA, UK, Canada, and Australia, are countries with relatively high inequality (look at the numbers yourself if you don't believe me). High and growing inequality makes people more fearful, less trustful, and makes racists more racist. Low inequality makes people less fearful, more trusting, and makes racists less racist.

In other words, that op-ed is this motherfucker trying to do the exact same thing capital has been doing for hundreds of years: it takes a problem caused by capital hoarding wealth and impoverishing others (loss of social cohesion) and, instead of acknowledging the real problem, they turn it around and try to turn us against one another, to turn race against race and nationality against nationality, to convince us that the actual problem with our society isn't them hoarding all the money and making the rest of us fight over scraps, the problem is that people who don't look like us are living too close.

gently caress that guy.

And that may be the first article that came up when I did this search, but its conclusions are not some outlier in academic research on the subject.

quote:

Donya Ahmadi (2018) Diversity and social cohesion: the case of Jane-Finch, a highly diverse lower-income Toronto neighbourhood, Urban Research & Practice, 11:2, 139-158, DOI: 10.1080/17535069.2017.1312509

Abstract: Diversity has increasingly emerged as the core focus of many studies concerning factors impacting on social cohesion. Various scholars have concluded that diversity is detrimental to cohesion. Most of this research, however, draws generalisations based upon quantitative data and fails to account for the impact of inequality, segregation and discrimination, and their interconnectedness to diversity. This research provides an indepth qualitative analysis of the perceptions of inhabitants of a diverse Toronto neighbourhood regarding formal and informal interactions, common values and attachment. The findings suggest that the internalisation of gendered and class-based racism by inhabitants plays a crucial role in shaping perceptions and interactions.

[and from the conclusions to this one:]

In the case of Jane-Finch, the analysis suggests that, regarding the creation of common values, neighbourhood attachment and formal and informal interactions, inhabitants do not perceive diversity as an asset or a liability. While there were instances in which diversity was perceived to have contributed to social cohesion, the positive contributions were often implicit and required the presence of other factors such as commonalities (language, culture, religion, age and political views), shared activities and a sense of solidarity grounded in situated knowledge and lived experiences. In some cases, such notions derived from belonging to the same group (country of origin, age, class, etc.), while in others they spanned different social and cultural backgrounds and identity politics.

The findings demonstrate that living with diversity often created opportunities for cultural exchange and increased recognition; however, the existing hierarchies among cultures and income groups were persistent in shaping and conditioning perceptions and interactions. Civility towards diversity thus went hand in hand with negative stereotyping and essentialisations based on race, gender, religion and class. Similarly, diversity only led to informal interactions when there were commonalities, shared activities and experiences present among inhabitants. Regarding formal interactions, negative encounters with paternalistic social workers and service providers – signalling once again the internalisation of negative stereotypes directed towards lower income ethnic minorities – were the real factors undermining community participation. The impact of poverty, institutionalisation and the internalisation of gendered and class-based racism in shaping residents’ perceptions and interactions were thus much more tangible than diversity.

quote:

Ruud Koopmans & Merlin Schaeffer (2016) Statistical and Perceived Diversity and Their Impacts on Neighborhood Social Cohesion in Germany, France and the Netherlands, Social Indicators Research, 125:3, 853–883, DOI 10.1007/s11205-015-0863-3

Abstract: The question whether ethnic diversity is associated with declining social cohesion has produced much controversy. We maintain that more attention must be paid to cognitive mechanisms to move the debate ahead. Using survey data from 938 localities in Germany, France, and the Netherlands, we explore a crucial individual-level mechanism: perceptions of diversity. We not only consider perceptions of the amount, but also of the qualitative nature of diversity. By asking about various qualitative aspects of diversity, we test the cognitive salience of three explanations that have been proposed in the literature for negative diversity effects: out-group biases, asymmetric preferences and coordination problems. We show that all three mechanisms matter. Perceptions both mediate statistical diversity effects, and have important explanatory power of their own. Moreover, we are able to address the question to what extend the relationship of perceived diversity and neighborhood social cohesion varies across policy contexts. Based on assumptions in the literature about positive impacts of inclusive and culturally pluralist immigrant integration policy approaches, we hypothesize that ethno-cultural diversity is less negatively related to neighborhood social cohesion in more inclusive policy contexts. Our results provide partial support for this hypothesis as perceived diversity has a significantly stronger negative impact on neighborhood cohesion in Germany.

That last one is particularly fascinating, I recommend if you have university access that you skim it or at least read the conclusions, which are too long for me to quote in full. Basically, they find that there are statistically significant findings that increased diversity seems to lead to lower social cohesion. But then they go beyond that to try and explain why:

quote:

We were able to show that these cognitive mechanisms are indeed important mediators of statistical diversity. Inclusion of the perception variables substantially reduced the size of the regression coefficients for statistical ethnic diversity, which dropped below the level of statistical significance in all three countries and for immigrants and natives alike. A formal mediation test showed that overall about half of the effect of statistical ethnic diversity was mediated by our summary measure of perceived diversity. Perceptions are therefore an important mechanism by which statistical diversity affects social cohesion, certainly if one takes into account that we in all likelihood underestimate the strength of this mediation path because we had to pool natives and immigrants and use the combined social cohesion scale to have enough statistical power for a formal mediation test. Still, other mediating factors that are beyond the scope of this paper may be at work, too. The most frequently mentioned of these additional mediators are intergroup social contacts (e.g. Stolle et al. 2008). To the extent that these are less dense than intragroup contacts, diverse areas will either have a lower overall social network density or more segregated social networks, which both may harm trust and other aspects of social cohesion. Beyond their role as mediators of statistical diversity, we showed that perceptions of diversity are also important predictors in their own right. Including perceptions in our models raised the explained variance of neighborhood social cohesion by more than 60 % among natives and 40 % among immigrants. This is an important result if one considers that perceptions can be more easily affected by policies, political mobilization, and media coverage than the statistical composition of populations. Our results therefore suggest that future research should focus on factors that moderate the perception of diversity in order to better understand the conditions under which statistical ethnic diversity affects social cohesion.

As a first step in this direction, we investigated the potential impact of national policies on immigration and ethno-cultural differences on the effects of perceptions of diversity. Based on assumptions in the literature about positive impacts of inclusive and culturally pluralist policy approaches on interethnic relations, we hypothesized that, controlling for statistical levels of diversity, ethno-cultural diversity would be less negatively related to neighborhood social cohesion in the more inclusive policy context of the Netherlands, compared to the more assimilationist policy contexts of France and Germany.

Our results provide partial support for this hypothesis as the negative effect of perceptions of diversity was indeed stronger among natives in Germany compared to their counterparts in the Netherlands. However, French and Dutch natives, and persons of immigrant origin in all three countries, did not differ significantly. The reason for the more negative association of perceived diversity with neighborhood cohesion among German natives may be the particular way in which immigrants have been, and to some extent continue to be politically framed in Germany, namely in terms of nationality and foreignness. Even after the 2000 reforms of the naturalization law many immigrants, and even many of their German-born children, do not hold German citizenship and are depicted in public discourse as foreigners. By contrast, what France and the Netherlands have in common—in spite of very different approaches towards cultural and religious rights for immigrants (Koopmans et al. 2012)—is that they have long had inclusive naturalization regimes that have allowed most immigrants to become citizens. The stronger emphasis on foreignness in Germany and on common citizenship bonds in France and the Netherlands may be a reason why similar levels of perceived diversity are more strongly associated with feelings of distrust and unease among German natives than among their French and Dutch counterparts.

In other words, their research suggests that perceptions of diversity are even more important than diversity itself. So it isn't that human nature means diversity automatically leads to a loss of social cohesion, but rather that, again unsurprisingly, when you create a legal, social, cultural, and media environment that is excessively hostile towards immigrants and people of colour, that affects people's perceptions and makes them less trustful and less cohesive when they see diversity around them.

This is not some ingrained human thing that we need to be ethnically segregated to form cohesive communities, no matter how many Nazis try to say it is. Scientific literature does not back that up. What scientific literature does suggest is that when we spend decades grinding people down, making them poorer, making them live in less equal societies, and simultaneously demonizing immigrants and people of colour, then we form a hostile social and cultural environment for diverse communities, because people are taught to fear and distrust each other based on racial and national identities. And then the rich turn around and tell us that this is the natural way of things and we need to stay in our lanes because that's how they keep us divided and poor and fighting each other instead of fighting them.

vyelkin fucked around with this message at 01:51 on Sep 8, 2019

angerbot
Mar 23, 2004

plob
I mean, Chick-Fil-A is anti-gay and scummy and I won't be going to their restaurants, but as far as weird evangelical businesses doing things it just can't beat out Hobby Lobby buying millions of dollars of ancient artifacts from Iraq, maybe from ISIS.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/07/hobby-lobby-smuggled-thousands-of-ancient-artifacts-out-of-iraq/532743/

quote:

Hobby Lobby purchased thousands of ancient artifacts smuggled out of modern-day Iraq via the United Arab Emirates and Israel in 2010 and 2011, attorneys for the Eastern District of New York announced on Wednesday. As part of a settlement, the American craft-supply mega-chain will pay $3 million and the U.S. government will seize the illicit artifacts. Technically, the defendants in the civil-forfeiture action are the objects themselves, yielding an incredible case name: The United States of America v. Approximately Four Hundred Fifty (450) Ancient Cuneiform Tablets; and Approximately Three Thousand (3,000) Ancient-Clay Bullae.

Precambrian Video Games
Aug 19, 2002



vyelkin posted:

You will note that the countries he cites in that op-ed as successfully navigating diversity (supposedly by forcing assimilation or ethnic segregation) are countries with low inequality, like the Scandinavian countries or Switzerland or Japan or Hungary, while the countries he cites as unsuccessfully navigating diversity (supposedly by allowing ethnic mixing), like the USA, UK, Canada, and Australia, are countries with relatively high inequality (look at the numbers yourself if you don't believe me). High and growing inequality makes people more fearful, less trustful, and makes racists more racist. Low inequality makes people less fearful, more trusting, and makes racists less racist.

Wait, he cited Hungary and Japan as successfully managing diversity? Just :lol:.

Switzerland is also very insular and even after recent reforms has at times absurd requirements for obtaining citizenship, which you need to do at three levels - federal, canton and commune. I can't easily find information about the commune level but my understanding is that in some communes if your neighbours don't like you they can make your life miserable.

vyelkin
Jan 2, 2011

eXXon posted:

Wait, he cited Hungary and Japan as successfully managing diversity? Just :lol:.

Switzerland is also very insular and even after recent reforms has at times absurd requirements for obtaining citizenship, which you need to do at three levels - federal, canton and commune. I can't easily find information about the commune level but my understanding is that in some communes if your neighbours don't like you they can make your life miserable.

Well, successfully managing diversity in the white-nationalist sense, i.e. not allowing any and therefore having high social trust.

infernal machines
Oct 11, 2012

we monitor many frequencies. we listen always. came a voice, out of the babel of tongues, speaking to us. it played us a mighty dub.
Who was it in the previous version of this thread that said multiculturalism is at odds with social cohesion?

Arivia
Mar 17, 2011

infernal machines posted:

Who was it in the previous version of this thread that said multiculturalism is at odds with social cohesion?

CI?

Fart Amplifier
Apr 12, 2003

Went and checked out /r/Canada to see how they feel and found a bunch of up voted white supremacy

nine-gear crow
Aug 10, 2013

Fart Amplifier posted:

Went and checked out /r/Canada to see how they feel and found a bunch of up voted white supremacy

/r/Canada has at least one avowed white supremacist mod that they’re just totally cool with. The sub isn’t as bad as MetaCanada, but all the non-shitbag folks seem to be migrating to OnGuardForThee in protest, of, you know, the subreddit dedicated to all things Canada having a white nationalist mod.

E: Also it’s currently being influence hacked like crazy in favour of fascist-friendly candidates and viewpoints just like r/politics was at the height of the 2016 election.

nine-gear crow fucked around with this message at 05:51 on Sep 8, 2019

vincentpricesboner
Sep 3, 2006

by LITERALLY AN ADMIN

infernal machines posted:

Who was it in the previous version of this thread that said multiculturalism is at odds with social cohesion?

Bernier is a goon?

Furnaceface
Oct 21, 2004




zapplez posted:

Bernier is a goon?

Well Bernier did suddenly have a lot more time to do Mad Max things when ssb got banned... :tinfoil:

infernal machines
Oct 11, 2012

we monitor many frequencies. we listen always. came a voice, out of the babel of tongues, speaking to us. it played us a mighty dub.

I think it was the same certified IQ genius that said political correctness was oppressive, citing a study that asked people if they felt oppressed by political correctness without ever defining political correctness.

zapplez posted:

Bernier is a goon?

I mean, very obviously. Whether or not he posts on these forums is another matter.

infernal machines fucked around with this message at 14:54 on Sep 8, 2019

Pinterest Mom
Jun 9, 2009


https://twitter.com/YvesDtmBQ/status/1170738742308397056

Precambrian Video Games
Aug 19, 2002



As if a guy who owns three houses understands anything about agriculture.

Charles Bukowski
Aug 26, 2003

Taskmaster 2023 Second Place Winner

Grimey Drawer
Do we have to elect one of these jerks?

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Stickarts
Dec 21, 2003

literally

It's late, of course, and massive, of course, but here's the post I agreed/offered to write on FNMI issues for the election:

---------------------------------------


Indigenous Issues, or, The Big Problem We Have All Agreed Will Go Away On Its Own If We Just Keep Ignoring It.

10 second summary:

quote:

NDP MP Romeo Saganash said that Trudeau “doesn’t give a gently caress” about the rights of indigenous people, amid mounting tensions between the country’s First Nations and at the federal government.

..........


Above: Trudeau in a Steven Seagal jacket, an old man who looks like Patrick Stewart, and some fresh batches of Adrenochrome.


2 minute summary:
Simply put, Trudeau came into office with massive expectations surrounding his engagement with Indigenous people and Indigenous issues. And it wasn’t for no reason – he used some pretty heavy-duty rhetoric during the 2015 campaign. He significantly described Canadian-FN relations as “Nation-to-Nation”, and stated that constitutional obligations to FNs were “a sacred obligation”. Indeed, renewed Canadian-FN relations were a major part of the “sunny ways” the LPC had built their platform around. Many promises were made: to increase educational funding to be on-par with provincial systems, to consult with FN before land is developed for resource extraction, to enact the TRCs Calls to Action, to fun language education and preservation, among other things.


The results? In a bid to give a little credit, I’d optimistically call it a mixed bag . There has been definite progress in some areas of funding (specifics later). However, there remains unquestionable disappointment and a sense of broken promises (…again) at this point in many Indigenous communities. Honestly, it might currently be easier to feel positive about areas of improvement if Trudeau hadn’t couched his campaign in such frankly radical language wrt to Indig-Can relations. Certainly, Trudeau has pushed more money towards Indigenous issues than the previous 20 years of Federal governments have. However, that is an astonishingly low bar to clear, and part of the “1 step forward after 2 steps back” dance that is such a hallmark of neoliberal social services funding. Needful reminder that it was Paul Martin as Minister of Finance who placed the notorious 2% cap on on-reserve funding back in 1996. This cap has existed ever since and has resulted in an ever-widening funding gap. (Note that there were some years under Harper where funding did moderately reach beyond 2%).


Basic tldr conclusions after 4 years of Trudeau:

#1. Funding has increased, but importantly remains at inadequate levels. Napkin math puts the funding increase at roughly 4%, compared to the previous 2% cap, if all funding is successfully allocated. Note here that the AFN figures FN on-reserve funding needs increase roughly 6% annually, not counting the 20 year compounding deficit created by the 2% gap (which obviously casts a certain pallor over present funding, regardless of increases).
#2. Typical government fiscal shell games have continued: Delivered dollars have not quite matched promised ones, as well as, #3. Roughly 2/3 of all promised funds remain slated for after the 2019 election. And #4. The LPC this past year reduced restrictions on how FN communities spend their money, providing slightly more fiscal autonomy.
#4. The LPC have not, however, significantly altered government procedure. The feds continue to dictate terms of resource extraction regardless of Indigenous input. As is said, it isn’t consent if you can’t say no. Power dynamics remain what they were and frankly always have been – that is colonial/patriarchal/corporate.

..........


The Gory Details:

Previously-Mentioned 2% Funding Cap: Cumulative Deficit:

This is critical information to frame the discussion:

quote:


“During pre-budget submissions to the Commons finance committee, Dale LeClair of the Assembly of First Nations estimated that about $25.5-billion in federal money has failed to flow to communities since funding was capped in 1996.”

That's a lot of very modern, very missing money.
..........


Funding

This quote from APTN I believes demonstrates the issues nicely:

quote:

The biggest piece of money in the Indigenous envelope—$1.15 billion over five years—targeted on-reserve infrastructure like housing, water treatment systems, health facilities and other similar projects. The money is part of a $4 billion package the Liberal budget said will be spread over 10 years. None of the new infrastructure money will be invested this year. A first instalment of $275 million will flow next year, with a matching amount to follow in 2019-2020, the next election year. The budget says a total of $600 million is slated to roll out in 2021 and 2022.

Liberals promise $1.15 billion (over 5 years) in additional funding for on-reserve infrastructure. However, only $275 million will actually be delivered prior this this current election. The remaining ~$800-850 million are slated post 2019.

Conclusion? More money, but not as much as promised, and most of it is still in the “IOU” pile. It is important to note that national Indigenous leaders such as Cindy Blackstock have continued to call out the LPC funding BS.

Trudeau Score: 3 canoes out of 5*


*2/3 canoes slated for release post-2019

Further Reading:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/saskatoon/trudeau-not-honouring-2-6b-education-promise-first-nations-leaders-say-1.4822749

https://aptnnews.ca/2017/03/22/liberals-budget-2017-promises-additional-billions-to-indigenous-communities/

https://aptnnews.ca/2016/03/11/government-emails-contradict-liberal-claims-on-fate-of-first-nation-education-dollars/

(This last one is an interesting look into political bamboozling in terms of fudged promises.)

One example of critical infrastructure being delivered by Trudeau to our neediest communities:


..........


Education Funding

Same story here as elsewhere. More funding than before, but still not nearly enough, and most hasn’t shown up yet. The Liberals have promised an additional $1,500/student,which would cut the per-student deficit by half. Which is to say, on-reserve schools would still be underfunded by 15+% of public school funding levels. How much credit do you give the LPC for this? I’ll leave that to you. Worth noting that FN leaders claim, as recently as September of last year, that promised funds still weren't being delivered.

This graph shows this nicely:




And here’s the ongoing funding deficit:



Trudeau Rating: 2.5 Canoes out of 5


More Reading:

https://www.thestar.com/politics/federal/2019/01/21/liberals-taking-new-approach-for-billions-in-first-nations-education-funding.html

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/saskatoon/trudeau-not-honouring-2-6b-education-promise-first-nations-leaders-say-1.4822749

https://www.afn.ca/uploads/files/education/fact_sheet_-_fn_education_funding_final.pdf

:siren: Breaking News: Foster Care Human Rights Case: :siren:

Big news came out just a couple days ago that Indigenous people who were removed from their parents will be awarded the maximum $40,000 payout each. With some 56,000 surviving Indigenous peoples who match this category, the payout will be some $2 billion. Not as good as just 1. Keeping kids with their family to begin with and 2. Proactively funding social services with that money in the first place but better than nothing I guess.

https://globalnews.ca/news/5865011/indigenous-children-separated-parents-payout/

..........


Language Funding

This is where the Trudeau gov’t can claim some real success. They have poured about a billion dollars into Indigenous language studies and it seems the money has made it where it is suppose to. Cultural preservation is obviously a big part of any real reconciliation. Granted, so is, you know, education and potable water, but let's take the win here, folks.

Trudeau Score: 4 canoes out of 5


..........


Jordan’s Principle

Briefly:
1. H of C in 2007 voted unanimously to pay for health care costs and let the feds and provinces bicker in the courts over who owes what later (this because a FN 5 year lived their entire life in the hospital – 100s of KM from home – eventually dying there – while MB and CA fought over who had to pay for homecare.
2. 10+ years later, the Canadian Human Rights Tribunal found that nothing had substantially changed and that Jordan’s Principle was not being honoured.
3. Still nothing had changed till this year when, perhaps aware of an upcoming election, Trudeau and the LPC started making noise about healthcare funding. Unsurprisingly, most of this funding and promises are slated to take up after the upcoming election.

Trudeau Score:
0/5. We had promised a drowning Trudeau to send him a canoe right away but we’re presently waiting for them to come on sale at Sport Chek. Give us a sec.

Pictured below, Trudeau opening up the Indian Act:


..........


Boil Water Advisories
A good example of how the bullshit way the LPC campaigned poisons potential goodwill. I think most people would be willing to accept that delivering and upgrading infrastructure can take time. With that perspective, the Liberals have been successful in their game of whack-a-mole attempting to overcome decades of underfunding. There is no question there are substantially fewer reserves with water advisories.

quote:

The government's most recent projection is that by the middle of 2018 there will be 66 advisories left to lift, dropping to 51 in 2019.

The problem of course, is that the LPC didn’t campaign on “substantially fewer” advisories, they promised to have them eliminated by the next election.
And of course I feel obliged to again provide the perspective that “drinkable water” is a laughably low bar we are struggling so mighty to clear wrt FN communities, and that any political perspective not coloured by this reality is pretty uncomfortably revisionist.

Further Reading
https://www.ctvnews.ca/mobile/politics/as-pm-trudeau-restates-drinking-water-pledge-many-communities-still-waiting-1.3912497

Trudeau Score:
This section promises to provide Trudeau with a fully 5/5 safe-to-use canoes. However, only 3 such canoes actually exist, the other 2 still make you poo poo your pants uncontrollably while paddling, but he surely has the patience to wait another few years for that to be solved.


The face of a man mad prairie-dogging on a hard wooden bench:


..........


“Nation-to-Nation”

Respecting/Defining/Asserting Indigenous sovereignty has been… bad. Trudeau talks about sacred obligations, but continues to 1. Not consult FN communities, 2. Fight FNs in court, 3. Not publish court documents and opinions, 4. Push forward on resource development/extraction deals even while Indigenous court cases play themselves out. All of these were TRC Calls to Action, all were promised by Trudeau to be implemented. None have. This has played out both the ongoing Site-C Dam and Trans Mountain debacles, among others. Libs gonna lib.

Here it is said another way that I found fairly compelling:

quote:

But some delegates weren’t happy with the minister’s platitudes.

“She talks about nation to nation, and so does Trudeau. He says the same thing: nation to nation and reconciliation,” said Hart Perley, proxy for Tobique First Nation Chief Ross Perley.

“Well, you know what? Canada is not a nation. It never was and it never will be. Canada is a corporate state. And as soon as you look at that and recognize that and admit it, then maybe the Indigenous peoples across this land will start believing what comes out of your mouth,”


Note on Trans Mountain: My research for this bore some unexpected fruit. Someone has compiled the info on FN communities and who does/doesn’t agree with the pipeline. Roughly 1/3 of FN communities (~40/~130) along the way have signed agreements with the feds. About 20 have formally rejected any interest in coming to an agreement. Apparently the large majority of the rest have refused to even enter into negotiations over the pipeline.


Trudeau Score:

0 Canoes out of 5. This, uh, is, ah, dismal.

Further Reading:

https://pull-together.ca/which-nations-support-kinder-morgan-turns-out-its-a-minority/

https://www.thediscourse.ca/environment/database-tracking-how-indigenous-communities-are-affected-by-kinder-morgan-pipeline

https://www.nationalobserver.com/2016/07/30/analysis/trudeau-just-broke-his-promise-canadas-first-nations

https://www.nationalobserver.com/2017/01/18/news/trudeau-government-retreats-key-promise-first-nations

https://aptnnews.ca/2019/07/23/first-nations-leaders-assess-liberal-track-record-ahead-of-federal-election/

..........


UNDRP

Specifically, bringing Canadian laws into alignment with UNDRP ("UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Persons")

I don't really know what credit to give to who. Yes, the Libs passed a law that promises to bring Canadian law into alignment with UNDRP. However, it was a private member's bill brought forth by Romeo "fuckin" Saganash of the NDP. So how much credit to you get for not blocking it? As well,

quote:

While the bill cannot compel changes in the Canadian system, it would create obligations for the Canadian government to concern themselves the right to self-government for First Nations that they have ignored.
So yes, a law was passed, but it has no real teeth as the gov't is under no obligation to change existing laws because of it. Trudeau promised not to open up the constitution, and it is unclear how to make such a change “stick” without doing so.

Trudeau Score: 4 canoes out of 5 but 2 of those canoes were built and provided by the opposition and the other 2 are actually just crudely drawn pictures of canoes shoved in front of a camera.


..........


Bill S-3 – Amending the Indian Act

This might be the most impactful, long-reaching decision of the Trudeau government, regardless of the upcoming election. Forced into changing the law to remove sex-based discrimination (previously "Indian" women families lost status if they married non-status men). This removes some level of federal control over Indigenous identity (though Canada is still embarrassingly pretty much the only "developed" nation to have blood quantum written into its law books. This will return status to up to almost 500,000 people. That big problem mentioned before sure doesn't seem to be going away on its own. Rather, it just keeps getting bigger. Best not to look.

This is really cool and very important. But is it really a notch in Trudeau's belt if he was forced into doing it?

Trudeau Score: 3 canoes out of 5 stolen out of LPC HQ.



Further Reading:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/indigenous/bill-s-3-indian-act-sex-discrimination-1.5249008


A Haida-tattooed Liberal PM beating the poo poo out of a FN dude seems a little too on the nose as a metaphor. It strains belief. This episode needs better writers.

..........


(Botched?) MMIW

Kind of just embarrassing. Mismanaged by the gov't, loads of resignations and missed deadlines, etc. The MMIW inquiry did begin and end its inquiry. The conclusions were predictably harrowing with some awful statistics crunched and the term "genocide" bluntly applied, and I don't mean to skate past this, but "mere bungling" is kinda small potatoes when it comes to government controversies. Honestly I'm running out of steam here.

..........

Hasty Conclusion

So yeah... that's it. I'm sure I've missed loads, but this should be much of the basics. Even with all this, Trudeau is the best PM in 20+ years for Indigenous Canadians, but that should be read more as an indictment of the Canadian political establishment rather than any glowing endorsement of Trudeau. Things remain "business as usual". Funding is still stuck in "sustained poverty" levels and sovereignty is still just five dollar word. Saganash was right.

I will give the last word to Cindy Blackstock, who speaks to under-funding on the video on the other side of this link:

https://aptnnews.ca/2018/02/22/lack-funding-piling-dreams-first-nations-children-blackstock/

Stickarts fucked around with this message at 21:15 on Sep 8, 2019

  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • Post
  • Reply