|
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-49625233"BBC" posted:Some are carrying banners reading, "President Trump, please save Hong Kong" and "Make Hong Kong great again".
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2019 02:30
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 7, 2024 05:42 |
|
|
Bob le Moche posted:https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-49625233 Hopefully the pepes liberation army can assist hong kong police in asserting order.
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2019 02:41
|
|
|
Bob le Moche posted:https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-49625233 You’ve opened my eyes! Asia actually does not exist! Thank you, good sir!
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2019 02:49
|
|
|
Snipee posted:https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/sep/08/hong-kong-protesters-call-on-donald-trump-to-liberate-territory I mean don’t all protests run into this problem eventually? People are sympathetic up until a point where the disruption in their life is worse than the thing they are protesting about. The airport and metro / seeing fire and Molotov’s I think is a real tightrope they have to walk across, and like you I’m not sure I really have an answer for that.
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2019 05:42
|
|
|
teacup posted:I mean don’t all protests run into this problem eventually? People are sympathetic up until a point where the disruption in their life is worse than the thing they are protesting about. It's an emotion based protest movement. It stop making sense past the early stage. The radical fraction also abuse the system because the city administrator has no national guard to call for like Macron did. You know like in some family fight people like to throw their own appliances out of the window. It makes no sense but I have heard people do it. The core of the emotion is the anti integration sentiment. HK is also a sick person with high degree of complication. There is no simple surgical operation that can fix her. The numbers will come out soon and it has done major damage to retail and tourism. tino fucked around with this message at 09:20 on Sep 9, 2019 |
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2019 08:16
|
|
|
Yeah I work in travel in Australia and we would book Hong Kong heaps- ex pts, families, holidays, business, stopovers. Now I can’t even convince someone to fly Cathay pacific to Europe from Australia even if they are hundreds less than even something like say, Philippine airlines or China southern. Cathay has an amazing reputation- Hong Kong does not at the moment. It’ll be a while before people feel ok going. I just don’t know what’s long term though. Like part of me doesn’t understand why China is cracking down- they waited 100 years for the drat island just wait another 30 now- but also what is going to happen in 30 years time? Will the sentiment be this extreme? Will it get stronger? Or fade away?
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2019 09:13
|
|
|
Think of HK as a former A list actor who has way past his prime but is still a primadona and still think he can command A list attention. No agent in the world can convince him he need to face the reality and start taking C list gigs. It will take a major meltdown-and-rehab episode to put him in the right frame of mind and accept to be a team player and start taking support roles.
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2019 09:27
|
|
|
tino posted:Think of HK as a former A list actor who has way past his prime but is still a primadona and still think he can command A list attention. No agent in the world can convince him he need to face the reality and start taking C list gigs. It will take a major meltdown-and-rehab episode to put him in the right frame of mind and accept to be a team player and start taking support roles. In terms of the city’s economic importance to the mainland, this is true, but considering the protestors’ desire to maintain their own legal system with relatively strong respect for rule of law and more protections for various civil/political freedoms, it seems much less reasonable to suggest that Hong Kongers need to face “reality” and become just another Chinese city. The reality is that they currently enjoy rights that they probably won’t have in a few decades if not sooner. That’s a reality worth resisting against. Snipee fucked around with this message at 10:30 on Sep 9, 2019 |
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2019 10:16
|
|
|
“Only A-listers (the most wealthy and profitable) deserve due process” a key tenet of modern socialism
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2019 10:19
|
|
|
Snipee posted:In terms of the city’s economic importance to the mainland, this is true, but considering the protestors’ desire to maintain their own legal system with relatively strong respect for rule of law and more protections for various civil/political freedoms, it seems much less reasonable to suggest that Hong Kongers need to face “reality” and become just another Chinese city. The reality is that they currently enjoy rights that they probably won’t have in a few decades if not sooner. That’s a reality worth resisting against. That was before the extradition bill was withdrawn. Now they are not fighting against the extradition bill, what are they fighting against. You can't blame the police butrality on the Chinese systems. Frankly all of their demands are issues that happened under their current system under Common Law. You can't make a logical argument with them. Most if not all of their arguments are emotional arguments. Also one big issue is HKers think they can resist change come 2047, but they can't. The Basic Law was written by the Chinese National Congress. Basic Law is not a joined document. Even if China become a democratic country, the next iteration of China still need to integrate HK to southern China. Unless HKers are secretly praying for China fall into chaos and civil war, they can't possibly expect a version of future without change to the HK systems.
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2019 10:52
|
|
|
tino posted:That was before the extradition bill was withdrawn. Now they are not fighting against the extradition bill, what are they fighting against. You can't blame the police butrality on the Chinese systems. Frankly all of their demands are issues that happened under their current system under Common Law. You can't make a logical argument with them. Most if not all of their arguments are emotional arguments. There are 5 clear, consistently repeated demands. One of them has been promised to be met. The rallying cry of the protesters is "five demands, not one fewer" so that means there's four more to go. In case you need them repeated, the four remaining are: Retract the characterization of the protests as a riot Release and exonerate all arrested and charged protesters Form an independent commission to investigate police brutality Hold a free and fair election for the office of the chief executive
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2019 10:57
|
|
|
It's pretty weird to characterize HK and the protests as a family feud, as a celebrity in need of rehab, or any other kind of personification yet neglect the main demands of the protesters in order to promote the agenda that the protests are anti-Mainlander, whatever your personal views on the five demands are. At the end of the day, your argument against it is no different from any other wumao or family member spouting "Hong Kong is and always will be a part of China". Still doesn't address the true cause of taxation without (proportional) representation.
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2019 11:10
|
|
|
Has somebody that know zero about this topic. HK is part of china. This is a part that I don't think anyone disagree with. China likes HK so much has to copied the model. I am wrong here? is a good model, good for china. The take over of the politics and legal of china seems rushed and poorly implemented. Somebody in the china government want HK to merge with the normal china sooner or ignoring acords. This chinese clumsiness is strange. Theres something I don't know, .... theres a lot I don't know.
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2019 11:31
|
|
|
tino posted:That was before the extradition bill was withdrawn. Now they are not fighting against the extradition bill, what are they fighting against. You can't blame the police butrality on the Chinese systems. Frankly all of their demands are issues that happened under their current system under Common Law. You can't make a logical argument with them. Most if not all of their arguments are emotional arguments. I don’t want to sound like an rear end in a top hat, but your idea of the protests seems rather short-sighted to me. The problems with the extradition bill are not cleanly limited to the existence of the extradition bill. These problems include the fact that the bill was put forth by a government in HK that was appointed by the CCP and that continues to splits its loyalty between the CCP and the people of HK. These problems also include the fact that millions of people needed to go protest on the streets in order to stop the bill from being implemented, so it logically means the protestors’ demands for an independent investigation into police conduct, the release of the arrested, and the protection of these protestors from any politically motivated charges of rioting are all demands that directly relate to the extradition bill. These related problems don’t immediately disappear after the extradition bill is withdrawn. The protestors want to guard against these sorts of behaviors from future HK governments and to guarantee that they would be safe to express opposing viewpoints without legal retaliation should it happen again. It is necessary to see this issue in its larger context. The five demands are highly interconnected and are all important in order to fully move on from the extradition bill. quote:Also one big issue is HKers think they can resist change come 2047, but they can't. The Basic Law was written by the Chinese National Congress. Basic Law is not a joined document. Even if China become a democratic country, the next iteration of China still need to integrate HK to southern China. Unless HKers are secretly praying for China fall into chaos and civil war, they can't possibly expect a version of future without change to the HK systems. Dude, I agree with you that HK is probably hosed. The PRC is too powerful. However, it is still worthwhile to resist and to make it harder for the CCP to destroy their way of life. And to go further on your tangent. if the mainland suddenly shifted towards a democracy, HK would have much better chance of maintaining local autonomy. I would imagine that one of the CCP’s fears is that any political concessions in HK would encourage mainland cities to similarly rebel. However, if the mainland is already democratic, then a more autonomous HK would be less of a threat to their political system.
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2019 11:47
|
|
|
Lady Galaga posted:It's pretty weird to characterize HK and the protests as a family feud, as a celebrity in need of rehab, or any other kind of personification yet neglect the main demands of the protesters in order to promote the agenda that the protests are anti-Mainlander, whatever your personal views on the five demands are. At the end of the day, your argument against it is no different from any other wumao or family member spouting "Hong Kong is and always will be a part of China". Still doesn't address the true cause of taxation without (proportional) representation. Well I make geopolitical argument that HK has to integrate into part of China, and alot of the causes of protest are from long term problems of HK's current systems, actually not dissimilar to arab springs. I don't care if you call me a wumao. I am glad at least you don't use the word tankie because that term holds even less meaning than wumao. What do you mean by taxation without representation?
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2019 12:29
|
|
|
Snipee posted:I don’t want to sound like an rear end in a top hat, but your idea of the protests seems rather short-sighted to me. The problems with the extradition bill are not cleanly limited to the existence of the extradition bill. These problems include the fact that the bill was put forth by a government in HK that was appointed by the CCP and that continues to splits its loyalty between the CCP and the people of HK. These problems also include the fact that millions of people needed to go protest on the streets in order to stop the bill from being implemented, so it logically means the protestors’ demands for an independent investigation into police conduct, the release of the arrested, and the protection of these protestors from any politically motivated charges of rioting are all demands that directly relate to the extradition bill. These related problems don’t immediately disappear after the extradition bill is withdrawn. The protestors want to guard against these sorts of behaviors from future HK governments and to guarantee that they would be safe to express opposing viewpoints without legal retaliation should it happen again. It is necessary to see this issue in its larger context. The five demands are highly interconnected and are all important in order to fully move on from the extradition bill. I reread my previous posts. My post was not talking about whats wrong whats right, my post only pointed out the action the protester (however decentralized you believe they are) have taken only make it worst. In other words, they would have had a 50 years of near autonomous rules but under a British drawn blueprint, with continue encroachment of the Chinese central government. But taking the fight in this particular time and public method will basically end the 50 years gentlement's agreement sooner. The Beijing central government will remake One Country Two Systems in their own image. I think we are kind of agree on other points.
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2019 13:18
|
|
|
Bloodnose posted:There are 5 clear, consistently repeated demands. One of them has been promised to be met. The rallying cry of the protesters is "five demands, not one fewer" so that means there's four more to go. These demands outside of the last wouldn't be accepted at the bare minimum in the west, it's cute that they think China will give them these at any given time.
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2019 20:50
|
|
|
Considering China isn't even letting them do the last what choice do they have aside from physically resist at this point?
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2019 20:55
|
|
|
Mans posted:These demands outside of the last wouldn't be accepted at the bare minimum in the west, it's cute that they think China will give them these at any given time. Not sure about that. See Australian royal commissions into police and regular coronial inquests.
|
|
#
?
Sep 10, 2019 02:07
|
|
|
Mans posted:These demands outside of the last wouldn't be accepted at the bare minimum in the west, it's cute that they think China will give them these at any given time. This is another thing that tickles me is that China is basically acting no differently than the US or any other western country in these regards. Occupy Wallstreet and the anti-ICE protests and BLM and Antifa get about the same sort of response. I get increasingly concerned looking at China that gradually we're approaching a "One World Two Systems" new world order where late stage capitalism and globalism has blurred the lines between living under a democracy and living within an authoritarian system. Snipee posted:Dude, I agree with you that HK is probably hosed. The PRC is too powerful. However, it is still worthwhile to resist and to make it harder for the CCP to destroy their way of life. And to go further on your tangent. if the mainland suddenly shifted towards a democracy, HK would have much better chance of maintaining local autonomy. I would imagine that one of the CCP’s fears is that any political concessions in HK would encourage mainland cities to similarly rebel. However, if the mainland is already democratic, then a more autonomous HK would be less of a threat to their political system. Like this, this strikes me as being incredibly naive. The US is a democracy right? Yet the US has been systematically breaking down the negotiated treaty rights they gave natives, the federal government reigns supreme over the autonomy of the states originally held under federalism and many regressive state governments in turn strip away the rights and ability of cities to not be poo poo. A "democratic" China is a China in which politics still exists, and HK bucking the trend of other Chinese cities is something that isn't going to last long either; not to make an argument that a democratic China would be more "nationalistic" only that I don't see how something like HK would be tolerable under a democratic system where one city gets special treatment. If HK were a State under the US system it would be unconstitutional de jure as an arrangement. "Destroy their way of life" seems a little overblown though I must say. Most of urban China from an outside perspective seems not much different from HK.
|
|
#
?
Sep 10, 2019 02:31
|
|
|
Raenir Salazar posted:The US is a democracy right? No.
|
|
#
?
Sep 10, 2019 02:37
|
|
|
Raenir Salazar posted:This is another thing that tickles me is that China is basically acting no differently than the US or any other western country in these regards. Occupy Wallstreet and the anti-ICE protests and BLM and Antifa get about the same sort of response. Weird, I must have missed when the cops started randomly teargassing malls and subways because of Occupy
|
|
#
?
Sep 10, 2019 02:52
|
|
|
fishmech posted:Weird, I must have missed when the cops started randomly teargassing malls and subways because of Occupy Fishmech gunna fishmech. "No you see, the US used a different kind of rubber bullets so you can't say they are similar at all!" Also literally five seconds of google Edit: I had to go past another 5 pages of HK news before I could find older stories but American police I am pretty sure are no strangers to teargas, especially against minorities. Also apparently the Hong Kong teargas is made in the US, China does import American stuff!!!! 
Raenir Salazar fucked around with this message at 04:08 on Sep 10, 2019 |
|
#
?
Sep 10, 2019 04:00
|
|
|
Is it time again for "things can be bad in the US and also bad in China" again? Do we need to add a corollary that "things can be bad in the US and also bad in Hong Kong" was that part not clear? Someone print me out a sign to tap so I can say "I'm tapping the sign."
|
|
#
?
Sep 10, 2019 05:23
|
|
|
Raenir Salazar posted:Fishmech gunna fishmech. Cool so you admit there was nothing like what the Hong Kong cops have been doing, like gassing random malls and subway stations! Thanks you could have just said that from the start, instead of trying the world's worst backpedal ever.
|
|
#
?
Sep 10, 2019 05:34
|
|
|
fishmech posted:Cool so you admit there was nothing like what the Hong Kong cops have been doing, like gassing random malls and subway stations! Thanks you could have just said that from the start, instead of trying the world's worst backpedal ever. Do you actually think this is convincing to anyone and not just something obviously being said in bad faith?
|
|
#
?
Sep 10, 2019 05:49
|
|
|
Raenir Salazar posted:Do you actually think this is convincing to anyone and not just something obviously being said in bad faith? Do you think that your rambling posts defending Hong Kong's abusive cops is convincing anyone? By the way I didn't say anything in bad faith, I merely didn't agree with your whataboutist rant.
|
|
#
?
Sep 10, 2019 05:51
|
|
|
Weird, I didn't say anything whataboutist; I merely remarked about how two countries sucked equally; while you, again, appear to be talking to some other poster who made some other argument than the one you are arguing with, I shall leave you to your windmills, while I shall resume the discourse with the actual functioning adults in this thread.
|
|
#
?
Sep 10, 2019 05:57
|
|
|
Raenir Salazar posted:Weird, I didn't say anything whataboutist; I merely remarked about how two countries sucked equally; while you, again, appear to be talking to some other poster who made some other argument than the one you are arguing with, I shall leave you to your windmills, while I shall resume the discourse with the actual functioning adults in this thread. They don't actually suck equally. That is the whataboutist thing I mentioned. For example, as you well understand because you tried a backpedal, Occupy Wall Street wasn't responded to by tear gassing the Manhattan Mall by Herald Square. Yet we just in the past week had HK cops toss tear gas grenades in a HK mall where there were no protests happening - they just gassed a bunch of random shoppers and the journalist who reported the story.
|
|
#
?
Sep 10, 2019 06:07
|
|
|
Raenir Salazar posted:.... You don't even need to go to the US, Catalonia local government voted for independence and Spain central government promptly arrested 12 leaders for secession charges. This is basically the law behind article 23. The fact that Hong Kongers think they can bargain and resist article 23 (secession and independent related law) IMO is ridiculous and childish. Beijing backed off on imposing article 23 at the time only for other considerations including Taiwan. And HK took it as a sign that they could haggle any political issue they want on the street. tino fucked around with this message at 08:34 on Sep 10, 2019 |
|
#
?
Sep 10, 2019 08:23
|
|
|
tino posted:article 23 (secession and independent related law) article 23 is more importantly an anti-sedition law. Back when the huge protests got it shelved in 2003, secession, localism, and independence weren't even things on the political radar of Hong Kong. People were worried about good old fashioned free speech.
|
|
#
?
Sep 10, 2019 09:36
|
|
|
tino posted:You don't even need to go to the US, Catalonia local government voted for independence and Spain central government promptly arrested 12 leaders for secession charges. What do you think would be the correct way for Hong Kong to express itself politically? If there is a political issue important to the city, how can the people bargain for it legitimately? Are there any situations when street protests are justified?
|
|
#
?
Sep 10, 2019 14:33
|
|
|
Raenir Salazar posted:"Destroy their way of life" seems a little overblown though I must say. Most of urban China from an outside perspective seems not much different from HK. I'm glad you offered the caveat "an outside perspective." The effective rights and freedoms of a person in urban China are extremely different, so you are speaking of wildly different circumstances relating to equity and protection of rights – situations immediately relevant once you are charged with committing a crime, so relevant at all times. quote:I merely remarked about how two countries sucked equally Then don't. False equivalency arguments are bad enough when it's about the two american political parties. Nothing's ever equivalent and the idea of equivalency is used primarily as a cover for the behavior of the worse party.
|
|
#
?
Sep 10, 2019 15:04
|
|
|
Wait so are the protests fizzling out because of the bill's withdrawal? Isn't this a false flag operation? Aren't the tanks still rolling in?
|
|
#
?
Sep 10, 2019 16:32
|
|
|
Raenir Salazar posted:"I don't see how something like HK would be tolerable under a democratic system where one city gets special treatment. If HK were a State under the US system it would be unconstitutional de jure as an arrangement." This is loving dumb. It wouldn't be special treatment because the rights in question would be the same in both places and there wouldn't have been the need for two systems from the jump. Everyone opposed to the protests keep twisting themselves in knots to avoid mentioning the biggest right in question. Just own your poo poo and say what this right is and say that you support China tearing this right from the citizens of Hong Kong.
|
|
#
?
Sep 10, 2019 17:09
|
|
|
Raenir Salazar posted:This is another thing that tickles me is that China is basically acting no differently than the US or any other western country in these regards. Occupy Wallstreet and the anti-ICE protests and BLM and Antifa get about the same sort of response. I get increasingly concerned looking at China that gradually we're approaching a "One World Two Systems" new world order where late stage capitalism and globalism has blurred the lines between living under a democracy and living within an authoritarian system. Which treaty with native nations has the US backpedaled on in the last 20 years and what in the gently caress does that have to do with China and Hong Kong.
|
|
#
?
Sep 10, 2019 19:29
|
|
|
Plastic_Gargoyle posted:
Fixed this post for you. The Hong Kong protests don’t have anything to do with the US and invoking that state’s past behavior is nothing but an obvious apology for the PRC’s. Two things can be bad at once.
|
|
#
?
Sep 10, 2019 20:53
|
|
|
I wish people would be more creative in Whataboutism. Like come bursting in with "Actually while you come down in China for this, did you know Fiji recently did something similar if you squint? Don't see anyone posting about that."
|
|
#
?
Sep 10, 2019 21:49
|
|
|
Free Corsica!
|
|
#
?
Sep 10, 2019 22:58
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 7, 2024 05:42 |
|
|
It's a decent comparison because the legal status of Native groups/land (and bizarre limbo that forces them to exist in) wrt the US is fairly similar to HK's connected yet autonomous thing that they've gotten used to. Even the use of state violence is similar between the two, and there's a lot of overlap between the issues that fueled the movement (eg desiring autonomy and freedom from a punitive legal system that didn't give a flying gently caress about them). The differences between the two are meaningful, I don't mean to fully equate them, but they do share many similarities as they are both facing an existential question of forced political, social, and legal assimilation (at best, or subjugation at worse).
|
|
#
?
Sep 11, 2019 00:11
|
|