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OwlFancier posted:Anyone who looks at the world right now and thinks "facts actually matter" is deranged. If they mattered we wouldn't be here. They matter for things like "chlorine is better than rat's piss for sanitizing water" and "clean water is a good way to avoid cholera" and "cholera is a disease spread by microorganisms". What you then do with these facts is based on values judgments like "people deserve access to clean water" which is only factual so long as people believe it, but without the little boxes of facts you could be going "people deserve access to clean water, therefore we should put rat's piss in the water." Little boxes, on the hillside, and they're all made of epistemology. e: 164CE - Marcus Aurelius gets married.
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Sep 10, 2019 11:52
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Grey Hunter posted:Didn't someone say the Welsh have them? if so, and Bojo refuses, whats to stop them from releasing something parliment has asked for. They're kept under the State Secrets Act so they could be on the hook for light treason, I believe.
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Sep 10, 2019 11:52
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ThomasPaine posted:My friend have you considered chilling the gently caress out and learning to laugh about things every now and again AOF does live in the Netherlands but refuses to visit a licensed cannabis seller because he, and I quote him directly here, "might get stabbed"
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Sep 10, 2019 11:53
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I bet that BoJo's voters will keep voting for him even if he's caught on tape masturbating with the Union Jack and swiping his arse with the Act of Union. Facts don't matter. Hail Hydra.
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Sep 10, 2019 11:54
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JeremoudCorbynejad posted:AOF does live in the Netherlands but refuses to visit a licensed cannabis seller because he, and I quote him directly here, "might get stabbed" By what, a red-light-district penis?
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Sep 10, 2019 11:54
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Gyro Zeppeli posted:We can probably slip two more PMs in by the end of December, so maybe. He'll have to hurry up and start building a big football stadium then! Bobby Deluxe posted:The rest of Italy, Rome is an overpriced shithole. We're gonna see the Vatican but we wanted to see the ruins of the Romans and stuff. We're staying in an apartment above a bar so it's Peronis in the street every night before bed lol
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Sep 10, 2019 11:55
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Guavanaut posted:I suppose the question is "for what?" Right but that follows from the idea that humans can be rational but it isn't, like, an essential trait of them. I can walk but I am currently sat on my arse, walking is not essential to my being, so it is with being rational except I'd probably suggest rationality is harder, though both are systemically disincentivized by the society we live in.
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Sep 10, 2019 11:55
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Bobstar posted:Shut up and take my vote! Mint chocolate is absolutely haram
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Sep 10, 2019 11:56
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Bobstar posted:If you outlaw mint chocolate as well I'll even volunteer to drive old people to the polling station (if they too hate incorrect chocolate). 
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Sep 10, 2019 11:56
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Angry Lobster posted:I bet that BoJo's voters will keep voting for him even if he's caught on tape masturbating with the Union Jack and swiping his arse with the Act of Union. The Deleter posted:We're gonna see the Vatican but we wanted to see the ruins of the Romans and stuff.
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Sep 10, 2019 11:56
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Angry Lobster posted:I bet that BoJo's voters will keep voting for him even if he's caught on tape masturbating with the Union Jack and swiping his arse with the Act of Union. Masturbating with the union jack is very patriotic though. The only thing more patriotic is doing cum tributes on a fiver, which incidentally is why they made them plastic.
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Sep 10, 2019 11:56
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To sum it up, facts matter to people who care about facts mattering, but people who find facts inconvenient will trust their gut over the obvious staring them in the face and slapping them and going JESUS CHRIST MAN THIS IS CHLORINE GAS GET OUT OF THE ROOM while they carry on wanking through the pain.
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Sep 10, 2019 11:57
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OwlFancier posted:Anyone who looks at the world right now and thinks "facts actually matter and people are rational" is deranged. If they mattered we wouldn't be here. But does that mean we need to bow to their level? At the very least even if it doesn't cause the results we want, even if we lose, even if it causes harm by complete accident, we can with a completely clear conscience say "this isn't our fault, we did what the data told us."
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Sep 10, 2019 12:01
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Guavanaut posted:I suppose the question is "for what?" Somebody should write a thing about Ought vs Is. Like when the LibChuks start to chuck libs about not having an ideology, I want to hit them over the head with this concept. Or when fact fiends start to worship "evidence-based policy". Yes, of course you should use evidence to determine the Is (what happens when I do this?) but there's always going to be a fundamental Ought at the bottom of the pile, even if it's a really obvious one (people dying is bad). Like, evidence-based drugs policy is good (cf David Nutt), but you can't assume harm reduction as the Ought - you can perfectly well have an Ought of "drug users deserve to suffer and go to prison, regardless of wider consequences". That's a thing that can be believed, and can't be disproved with "facts". Angry philosophy drop-out rage intensifies...
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Sep 10, 2019 12:02
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AceOfFlames posted:But does that mean we need to bow to their level? At the very least even if it doesn't cause the results we want, even if we lose, even if it causes harm by complete accident, we can with a completely clear conscience say "this isn't our fault, we did what the data told us." The point of politics isn't to absolve your conscience you sniveller it's to do things. And that means yes, getting down in the filth of ideology with everyone else and screaming and planting your banner and rallying people to it on emotion and anger and desperation, and riding that writhing mess all the way to a different future. The person who could sit atop a pile of the dead and say "well the data indicated this was the most rational action so it's not my fault" is deluding themselves.
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Sep 10, 2019 12:03
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Guavanaut posted:Little boxes, on the hillside, and they're all made of epistemology. Not an emptyquote
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Sep 10, 2019 12:03
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Reposting from the last month because it is quite fun to read and it's somewhat topical, the leaked summary from mid August. Veracity unknown but a bunch of papers quoted from and wrote articles about it, so YMMV.
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Sep 10, 2019 12:04
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AceOfFlames posted:But does that mean we need to bow to their level? At the very least even if it doesn't cause the results we want, even if we lose, even if it causes harm by complete accident, we can with a completely clear conscience say "this isn't our fault, we did what the data told us." You're assuming here that gathering data and prioritising the data you wish to act on is an entirely neutral process. Which, lol.
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Sep 10, 2019 12:04
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Beefeater1980 posted:Not an emptyquote This doesn't trick the mods you know Just do a normal emptyquote, you won't get probed for it
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Sep 10, 2019 12:05
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Guavanaut posted:Half of them are pissy little English nationalists anyway. The Roman Catholic stuff has my monkey brain going "oooh pretty" and my anti-catholic brain going "BURN IT" so I understand how Julian felt 
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Sep 10, 2019 12:05
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AceOfFlames posted:But does that mean we need to bow to their level? At the very least even if it doesn't cause the results we want, even if we lose, even if it causes harm by complete accident, we can with a completely clear conscience say "this isn't our fault, we did what the data told us." Yeah, I can see rational arguments and facts working well against the school bully and his cronies.
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Sep 10, 2019 12:07
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Bobstar posted:a really obvious one (people dying is bad) quote:Like, evidence-based drugs policy is good (cf David Nutt), but you can't assume harm reduction as the Ought - you can perfectly well have an Ought of "drug users deserve to suffer and go to prison, regardless of wider consequences". That's a thing that can be believed, and can't be disproved with "facts". 2) Saying the part where my ought and your ought aren't the same out loud is gauche, because it implies there are legitimate disagreements which I just can''t be bothered to deal with
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Sep 10, 2019 12:08
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I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
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This desire to be able to just not be political is just the desire to ignore all the bits of the world that you don't like and focus on a problem you believe you understand, and then to go on to say that this is actually the only part of the world that matters because it's the part you think you understand. It's trying to universalise your own limitations which is decidedly not rational.
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Sep 10, 2019 12:10
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AceOfFlames posted:But does that mean we need to bow to their level? At the very least even if it doesn't cause the results we want, even if we lose, even if it causes harm by complete accident, we can with a completely clear conscience say "this isn't our fault, we did what the data told us." Facts are interpreted. Not just interpretable, but always, universally, interpreted. No human viewpoint is capable of Universal Truth, because no fact can be understood without the (faulty) reference frame of the understander. What the "we" above thought the data told "us" is influenced by human subjectivity; there is no unequivocal single correct path, and the belief that there is one is itself an ideological position that can, and should, be argued. In short, examine your priors. You believe things most people in this thread don't about the nature of human beings.
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Sep 10, 2019 12:10
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chuka ummana is a progressive who likes to get thigns done
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Sep 10, 2019 12:11
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Angry Lobster posted:Yeah, I can see rational arguments and facts working well against the school bully and his cronies. Which is why the irrational should be fought. If they don't listen to reason then they should be removed somehow, either by law or by force. Live by the sword, die by the sword. If you don't listen to reason like a human, then get disciplined like an animal.
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Sep 10, 2019 12:14
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A deeply British/Bourgie attitude
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Sep 10, 2019 12:17
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AceOfFlames posted:Which is why the irrational should be fought. If they don't listen to reason then they should be removed somehow, either by law or by force. You didn't read a word everyone just wrote dis you. God you're obnoxious
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Sep 10, 2019 12:17
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AceOfFlames posted:Which is why the irrational should be fought. If they don't listen to reason then they should be removed somehow, either by law or by force. So the opposite of your last post?
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Sep 10, 2019 12:17
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AceOfFlames posted:Which is why the irrational should be fought. If they don't listen to reason then they should be removed somehow, either by law or by force. "I'm very rational" I proclaim as I advocate for rounding up everyone who isn't like me and putting them in camps. I'm not like them, you see, they're fascists, I'm just doing what's necessary to improve humanity by removing the animal elements.
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Sep 10, 2019 12:19
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Very long article (I have only quoted first few paragraphs) and not finished reading yet.quote:UK government to target “far left” in revised Counter Extremism Strategy https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2019/09/10/extr-s10.html
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Sep 10, 2019 12:19
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I can't tell if I like Eddie Dempsey or not. I don't agree with him about much to do with Brexit but otherwise he seems pretty on point. Absolutely going for Bercow today tho, maybe justifiably? https://twitter.com/EddieDempsey/status/1171315901267959809?s=19 E: oh Owen Jones too https://twitter.com/EddieDempsey/status/1171371358393196546?s=19 Just a frustrating case of the left eating itself again I fear.
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Sep 10, 2019 12:20
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Tesseraction posted:They're kept under the State Secrets Act so they could be on the hook for light treason, I believe. Which begs the question of why information directly in the public interest is a state secret.
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Sep 10, 2019 12:20
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AceOfFlames posted:But does that mean we need to bow to their level? At the very least even if it doesn't cause the results we want, even if we lose, even if it causes harm by complete accident, we can with a completely clear conscience say "this isn't our fault, we did what the data told us." Beep boop, you should really go back to your programmer to get them to make you a bit less like Marvin the Paranoid Android. My politics are formed by my emotions, it's impossible (and undesirable imo) to separate them. I am a socialist because it feels deeply hosed up that people can live in grotesque excess while others struggle to get by. I couldn't give a gently caress if tackling that reduces GDP by 3%. Technocracy only favours the status quo which ensures that grotesque inequality continues.
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Sep 10, 2019 12:20
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AceOfFlames posted:Which is why the irrational should be fought. If they don't listen to reason then they should be removed somehow, either by law or by force. strong words from the guy dragging his rear end along the carpet itt
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Sep 10, 2019 12:21
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OwlFancier posted:"I'm very rational" I proclaim as I advocate for rounding up everyone who isn't like me and putting them in camps. Then what makes me different from the people ITT constantly yelling about guillotines? Maybe that's the true issue: mankind is inherently violent, oppressive and has a group they would like to see destroyed. We just differ on who.
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Sep 10, 2019 12:21
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https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1171348817830207488
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Sep 10, 2019 12:21
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Jedit posted:Which begs the question of why information directly in the public interest is a state secret. The modern role of government is to keep the proles as uninformed as possible. This is why Corbyn is considered unstatesmanlike.
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Sep 10, 2019 12:23
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Chinese Gordon posted:The real problem, which I suspect was Big Brain Jo's plan all along, is this definitely rules out an electoral non aggression pact with Labour. Prior to this move I reckon there was a decent chance of that happening given that pressure would be overwhelming to prevent the remain vote splitting and letting the Tories win despite their leader being repeatedly publically humiliated/in prison. Now it's impossible for Labour to consider such a pact, and the single issue remain voters - of which there are more than enough to swing the result - will flock to the Lib Dems and likely swing the result. Liberals hate socialists more than fascists AceOfFlames posted:Don't say this even as a joke. It makes us the same as the idiots destroying the world. gently caress offfffffffffff
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Sep 10, 2019 12:23
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ThomasPaine posted:I can't tell if I like Eddie Dempsey or not. I don't agree with him about much to do with Brexit but otherwise he seems pretty on point. Absolutely going for Bercow today tho, maybe justifiably? Blue Labour being very poo poo is one of those rare topics where ronya and I agree. They aren't just bad on the EU, they are racists, straight up.
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Sep 10, 2019 12:23
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