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fuzzy_logic posted:Utopian groups are pretty cool too, Oneida was into free love and weirdly feminist in many ways and really screwed up in other way. They eventually turned into ... a silverware company but managed not to kill anybody: To be true, they were screwed up in many ways, but their most infamous member was screwed up before he even joined them; namely Charles Guiteau. He was so disliked by the Oneida that they gave him the nickname Charles 'Get out'.
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Sep 9, 2019 07:48
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^As the dollop on him noted, a man who literally couldn't get laid at an orgy. Yeah, to be fair cult is a loaded term. I think serious people/academics usually say "new religious movement" or some equivalent. The other side of the problem is that without clear power or structure there's a good chance problems will arise over time just do to lovely human nature. This is probably the best thread to ask, but I remember Last Podcast on the Left covering some serial killer who's early basic rear end in a top hat behavior involved showing up to a hippie commune and just openly stealing stuff and refusing to help anyone. When confronted about it he threw the no private property/pro-anarchy rules back in their face until the de-facto leader just left the community rather than be forced to abandon his beliefs to kick the rear end in a top hat out and things fell apart afterward. Either you have strict power and the issues that come with it, or you're vulnerable. And in general things just get weird with traditional cultish power dynamics. Even Eckankar, which seems to be a fairly harmless church that's just ripping off Zen Buddhism and merging it with new age beliefs, had weird moments. On Oh No Ross and Carrie, they covered a book by a former master's assistant. She recalled a story of her driving the master around with a visiting guest. You see, the master knew all so even though he didn't drive, he "drove" by making every single decision for her. The assistant cheerfully explained the time that the master got distracted and didn't tell her to turn at an intersection, so she just kept going straight toward a cliff. He barely saw in time and screamed for her to stop, so she did. When writing the story down, she described the beauty of it all and the peace she felt, knowing that if they drove off of the cliff it was the master's will and they'd just start flying. And like, it seems to be a chill church that's 99% mediation without any real harm and definitely no suicidal ideation. But you can still get weird devotion and have it go to strange. I'd love an in-depth rundown of Heaven's Gate, I'm hoping LPotL will re-visit their old episode, since supposedly it was a "normal" utopian cult for a while and only made the hard change to a dystopian cult toward the end following a high-ranking member's death.
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Sep 9, 2019 07:58
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Samovar posted:To be true, they were screwed up in many ways, but their most infamous member was screwed up before he even joined them; namely Charles Guiteau. He was so disliked by the Oneida that they gave him the nickname Charles 'Get out'. The Nice Try podcast (about utopian communities) had a good episode about Oneida. At the outset, I was rooting for this sorta-feminist, sorta-socialist dude who couldn't stop whacking off, and by the time he was planning people's marriages and sleeping with their kids I couldn't wait for him to die. The interview with a current head of the corporation (a descendant of Noyes) was great because he's a total company man and flatware enthusiast and freezes when he's asked about his forefather. He says something to the effect of "you must have been talking to people."
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Sep 9, 2019 08:26
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RNG posted:The Nice Try podcast (about utopian communities) had a good episode about Oneida. At the outset, I was rooting for this sorta-feminist, sorta-socialist dude who couldn't stop whacking off, and by the time he was planning people's marriages and sleeping with their kids I couldn't wait for him to die. I ended up having a similar sort of thing with the Jonestown series of Casefiles podcasts. Early on Jim Jones seemed like a pretty decent guy but then nosedived off the steep end pretty fast and welp, then we're doing mass murders in south america that for once aren't sanctioned by the government!
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Sep 9, 2019 08:44
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Absolute power corrupts absolutely and all that.
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Sep 9, 2019 08:51
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Well yeah, that and a buncha speed. Poof! You're more charismatic! Shazam! Your mania isn't in check because the cult mentality means no one is gonna say no to whatever you do, including your idea to do more speed!
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Sep 9, 2019 09:58
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Parakeet vs. Phone posted:
If you haven't already heard it, definitely check out Glynn Washington's Heaven's Gate podcast. It's a deep dive into it by a guy who grew up in the Children of God cult.
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Sep 9, 2019 12:42
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Ghost Leviathan posted:Absolute power corrupts absolutely and all that. A lot of cult leaders were manipulative assholes before they had power too, they just had limitations on what they could get away with.
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Sep 9, 2019 16:54
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buddhist nudist posted:A lot of cult leaders were manipulative assholes before they had power too, they just had limitations on what they could get away with. This. Jim Jones was a kid with some red flag behaviors long before he had a cult.
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Sep 9, 2019 16:57
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ChickenOfTomorrow posted:you can still help the fight in other ways. I forgot to thank you for this.
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Sep 9, 2019 21:43
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I was not expecting this to end with the baby being given back to her parents and apparently living a normal happy life
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Sep 9, 2019 21:56
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Mortal babies need the most attention. 
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Sep 9, 2019 23:50
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My favorite line from the immortal baby article is: “Schafer made numerous remarkable claims. For instance, he boasted that he could automatically dematerialize persons or things that stood in his way.“
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Sep 10, 2019 03:09
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luxury handset posted:this talk of cults reminded me - i vaguely remember some kind of like femme cult in 1950's england that was women who would dress primly and had this whole strict discipline thing going on? i realize this sounds like a bad porn but does this description ring any bells? Ghost Leviathan posted:I remember in the old 'stories about anime weirdos; thread by uglynoodles they went into a weird partly-online subculture about some all-female fantasy world (though with social roles that basically translated to masculine and feminine gender roles) that kinda came off like a throwback to pre-20th century lesbian culture. Mostly that they had a huge issue as it was the early 00s and a shitload of newer members were huge weebs and basically crowbarred in anime fetish ideas that didn't really fit, and after some schisms and dramabombs the whole thing went back underground with minimal online presence. Like Aristasia?
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Sep 10, 2019 04:03
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Antivehicular posted:I was not expecting this to end with the baby being given back to her parents and apparently living a normal happy life WHAT A TWIST 
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Sep 10, 2019 04:03
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dovetaile posted:Like Aristasia? I think that was them. I mostly remembered they followed a teacher/schoolgirl type roleplay.
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Sep 10, 2019 04:13
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Ghost Leviathan posted:... after some schisms and dramabombs the whole thing went back underground with minimal online presence. Amen
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Sep 10, 2019 04:42
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Yeah, probably the smartest thing given they got exposed to some of the most toxic unfiltered Internet. (Don't let anyone tell you that a woman can't do anything just as well as a man can, including being a toxic anime fan) Reminded of Prester Jane's theories about cults, as much mockery and creepy stalkers they get; the basic thing is that a cult on large scale or small that becomes more radical will start shedding membership, but the members who remain will be radicalised along with it and/or more vocal, and the group becomes more dangerous with each cycle of compaction. Any checks and balances that were in place tend to become irrelevant very quickly when a manipulative narcissist is in charge, especially when they're surrounded by either true believers or loyal toadies. (and the latter can easily become the former)
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Sep 10, 2019 05:19
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dovetaile posted:Like Aristasia? this is exactly it, thank you http://www.daughtersofshiningharmony.com/
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Sep 10, 2019 06:28
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hey wtf america I Was Sentenced to Life Without Parole for a Non-Violent First Drug Offense Life without parole for working at a garage that fixed trucks that transported weed. Because, right after 9/11, dealing  was FUNDING TERRORISM, but he also got a harder sentence than actual terrorists.
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Sep 10, 2019 06:28
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Busket Posket posted:My favorite line from the immortal baby article is: “Schafer made numerous remarkable claims. For instance, he boasted that he could automatically dematerialize persons or things that stood in his way.“ drat I knowingly revel in a bit of confirmation bias about walk/don't walk lights changing right as I'm getting to the crosswalk but that's pretty extra.
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Sep 10, 2019 09:22
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cowboy
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Busket Posket posted:hey wtf america I am absolutely SHOCKED this man is white.
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Sep 10, 2019 14:27
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it's unnerving that i know multiple white boomers who are totally into legalizing marijuana, but completely against releasing marijuana prisoners because "they're criminals"
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Sep 10, 2019 15:21
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bamhand posted:I am absolutely SHOCKED this man is white. quote:I was never alleged to have bought, sold, or even used marijuana. Rather, my business repaired semi-trucks for a company that trafficked marijuana. I didn't think I was doing anything wrong as I didn't do anything with marijuana.
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Sep 10, 2019 15:33
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Kanine posted:it's unnerving that i know multiple white boomers who are totally into legalizing marijuana, but completely against releasing marijuana prisoners because "they're criminals" I feel an electrical surge in my brain when I try to bridge that connection.
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Sep 10, 2019 15:36
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Parakeet vs. Phone posted:The other side of the problem is that without clear power or structure there's a good chance problems will arise over time just do to lovely human nature. This is probably the best thread to ask, but I remember Last Podcast on the Left covering some serial killer who's early basic rear end in a top hat behavior involved showing up to a hippie commune and just openly stealing stuff and refusing to help anyone. When confronted about it he threw the no private property/pro-anarchy rules back in their face until the de-facto leader just left the community rather than be forced to abandon his beliefs to kick the rear end in a top hat out and things fell apart afterward. Either you have strict power and the issues that come with it, or you're vulnerable. After the DSA conference thing got into the news a while back (i dont know enough about what happened to say if the reaction online was overblown or not), i saw quite a few people online (here and twitter) with interesting perspectives on situations like this. Apparently groups with a focus on intersectionality and accessibility have a strong appeal to Narcissists, so those groups have to stringently self police for bad actors. This gets more and more difficult to do, the larger the group is. The story of the hippy commune makes me wonder how different and... relaxed? Society could be if we could identify and fix folks like that. How much of what we deal with every day is due to safeguarding against the tiny percentage of people who are just nonstop shitheads?
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Sep 10, 2019 16:57
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Brawnfire posted:I feel an electrical surge in my brain when I try to bridge that connection. Racism. It's racism. One More Fat Nerd posted:After the DSA conference thing got into the news a while back (i dont know enough about what happened to say if the reaction online was overblown or not), i saw quite a few people online (here and twitter) with interesting perspectives on situations like this. Apparently groups with a focus on intersectionality and accessibility have a strong appeal to Narcissists, so those groups have to stringently self police for bad actors. This gets more and more difficult to do, the larger the group is. A lot of LGBTQ+ and other minority support groups have the same problem in being magnets for narcissistic bad actors and sexual predators, since there's not only a focus on accessibility and intersectionality but guaranteed access to vulnerable people, both as victims and as scapegoats to cover for their predations.
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Sep 10, 2019 17:06
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One More Fat Nerd posted:After the DSA conference thing got into the news a while back (i dont know enough about what happened to say if the reaction online was overblown or not), i saw quite a few people online (here and twitter) with interesting perspectives on situations like this. Apparently groups with a focus on intersectionality and accessibility have a strong appeal to Narcissists, so those groups have to stringently self police for bad actors. This gets more and more difficult to do, the larger the group is. It was Leonard Lake who did that. He and Charles Ng kidnapped women in what they called their "Miranda Project", inspired by the book The Collector. Two of the more loathsome individuals in American criminal history.
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Sep 10, 2019 17:13
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One More Fat Nerd posted:After the DSA conference thing got into the news a while back (i dont know enough about what happened to say if the reaction online was overblown or not), i saw quite a few people online (here and twitter) with interesting perspectives on situations like this. Apparently groups with a focus on intersectionality and accessibility have a strong appeal to Narcissists, so those groups have to stringently self police for bad actors. This gets more and more difficult to do, the larger the group is. That’s a really good question. I know Koinonia Farm’s been going ok more or less but no idea how they and others like them manage to keep it up. https://www.topic.com/the-75-year-and-counting-christian-interracial-farm-experiment
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Sep 10, 2019 17:17
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One More Fat Nerd posted:After the DSA conference thing got into the news a while back (i dont know enough about what happened to say if the reaction online was overblown or not), i saw quite a few people online (here and twitter) with interesting perspectives on situations like this. Apparently groups with a focus on intersectionality and accessibility have a strong appeal to Narcissists, so those groups have to stringently self police for bad actors. This gets more and more difficult to do, the larger the group is. "My opinion is now infallible and you may never question it" is a siren song to narcissists and psyhopaths that they will never be able to resist. As soon as you can shut down somebody by just saying a particular word at them or have a get out of jail free card when it comes to bad behavior you're guaranteed to start attracting the worst people. Narcs and psychos will do anything to rig the game in their own favor and definitely exist in every demographic you can think of. If you don't actively keep them out of an organization they'll inevitably take over when you aren't looking.
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Sep 10, 2019 17:31
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Brawnfire posted:I feel an electrical surge in my brain when I try to bridge that connection. It's racism. Drug laws disproportionately target non-white minorities, so (white) boomers want pot for them, but to not help any of the (predominantly black) non-violent drug offenders. One More Fat Nerd posted:After the DSA conference thing got into the news a while back (i dont know enough about what happened to say if the reaction online was overblown or not), i saw quite a few people online (here and twitter) with interesting perspectives on situations like this. Apparently groups with a focus on intersectionality and accessibility have a strong appeal to Narcissists, so those groups have to stringently self police for bad actors. This gets more and more difficult to do, the larger the group is. This is why I straight up don't trust white guys who call themselves woke, and I'm a leftist white guy. From what I've seen, most white guys who call themselves woke are doing so solely to get laid and tend to be abusers. Regarding narcissists and, for lack of a better diagnostic term, psychopaths, I have this little pet idea I call the rear end in a top hat Ratio. The rear end in a top hat Ratio is the ratio of assholes, defined as people who either refuse to work within the rules of a system or use those rules against the system like the serial killer taking advantage of the hippy commune, but not including those who are acting against assholes in power, to non-assholes needed for the system to fail, whether by complete collapse or by transforming into a different system. Once a system has reached a point of failure, rebelling against the assholes who brought it there does not turn one into an rear end in a top hat, as by then the rules of the system have become meaningless. That hippy commune had an rear end in a top hat ratio of 1:however many hippies were in it, since one rear end in a top hat was enough to remove the leader of the commune. Of course, all systems evolve over time, and power tends to ossify so that those in power stay in power while keeping all others out, turning those with power into insular assholes who only care about themselves. When assholes are in power, assholery tends to spread to all of those under them who like the cut of their jib, like, for example, the guards in Jonestown executing those who wouldn't drink the flavor-aid. The takeaway I got from thinking of this is that the strength of any system lies with how many assholes to non-assholes a system can tolerate before failure. Keep in mind that I'm not claiming this is any kind of predictive model or valid metric. Sometimes, it's morbidly fun to think about how many assholes a system can tolerate before reaching a breaking point. All I did here was make a few definitions and slap a name on that idea.
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Sep 10, 2019 17:32
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How did all the Israeli kibbutzim from back in the day shake out? I got the impression that it was a pretty substantial movement at one point with hundreds of communes.
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Sep 10, 2019 17:33
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OutOfPrint posted:This is why I straight up don't trust white guys who call themselves woke, and I'm a leftist white guy. From what I've seen, most white guys who call themselves woke are doing so solely to get laid and tend to be abusers.
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Sep 10, 2019 18:35
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Ghost Leviathan posted:Racism. It's racism. You also run into the thorny issue that people with NPD or other disruptive personality disorders genuinely did not choose to be like they are. In an organization dedicated to inclusiveness and accessibility, its arguable that efforts should be made to accommodate them. But how do you accommodate someone whose reason they arent comfortable with a group is "everything isnt about me all the time" Or "the other people in the group expect me to experience empathy"? Also, If i understand right, you end up with lots of enablers in these disadvantaged groups, no one wants to misidentify someone having a bad day (or month), or making a bad decision (or several) as a bad actor and cut them off from the only source of support they may have. So for every genuine shithead out there you have dozens of people making excuses out of terror of driving an undeserving person out. I, uh, have no idea how to fix any of this.
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Sep 10, 2019 18:50
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luxury handset posted:this is exactly it, thank you It looks like someone in an older thread used to be something of a member and wrote on their experience. https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3444416&userid=0&perpage=40&highlight=&pagenumber=168
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Sep 10, 2019 19:00
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cinni posted:Has there been any successful hippie communes or 'cults' that don't involve taking advantage of their members sexually or otherwise? Ive always been very interested in Jonestown and that if Jim Jones hadn't been loving drugged out/insane that they could have made their social experiment into something awesome. Maybe the Amish? I feel like almost all of these kind of things fall by the wayside eventually when absolute power corrupts absolutely. Would you consider the Quakers maybe, with their peacefulness, but I don't know how many of their communities are still around these days. Are these communes just destined to fail eventually, or can they actually follow through on a utopian way of life? Heaven's gate was pretty cool.
The highly publicized mass suicide gets them a bad rep, but they were actually a really solid group of people to hang out with by all accounts.
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Sep 10, 2019 19:21
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Post Your Favorite (or Request): Coldly Compiled Lists › PYF unnerving article or story: The highly publicized mass suicide gets them a bad rep, but
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Sep 10, 2019 19:36
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Wasn't there a Heavens Gate guy posting on SA? I remember someone making a lot of references to Bo and Peep. McDowell or something?
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Sep 10, 2019 19:38
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joxxuh posted:The highly publicized mass suicide gets them a bad rep, but they were actually a really solid group of people to hang out with by all accounts. new thread title
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Sep 10, 2019 19:39
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joxxuh posted:Heaven's gate was pretty cool. I was under the impression that Applewhites castration came from internal strife over closeted homosexuality, and isn't advocating castration in a group you have control of a form of sexual abuse? To me it feels like when the cult leader decides it's time for everyone to die, that's not really suicide, and when the leader starts telling people to fly down to Mexico to get their balls chopped off, it's probably not really a suggestion.
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Sep 10, 2019 20:02
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