UKMT September 2019 - A Fish-Abandoning Government

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > UKMT September 2019 - A Fish-Abandoning Government

radmonger: Jun 6, 2011

Comrade Fakename posted:

The Lib Dem�s are backing revocation because they have to. They�ve branded themselves the official party of Remain and if they have the same policy as Labour they have no point to exist.

Doing the thing you have to do is an under-rated virtue in politics.

For example, in order to win the next election, Labour would have to campaign on ending austerity and ending Brexit. This is pretty obvious to everyone; to the point where everyone here gets bored whenever it is pointed out.

Nevertheless, there remain no signs of it being done..

# ? Sep 11, 2019 08:27

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# ? May 27, 2024 06:02

Sanitary Naptime: May 29, 2006; MIWK!

radmonger posted:

Doing the thing you have to do is an under-rated virtue in politics.

For example, in order to win the next election, Labour would have to campaign on ending austerity and ending Brexit. This is pretty obvious to everyone; to the point where everyone here gets bored whenever it is pointed out.

Nevertheless, there remain no signs of it being done..

Labour should kill its electoral prospects over one issue to make sure it can�t deliver socialism, hmm, yes.

Revocation outright is dumb as gently caress, how is the balanced and appropriate position of win an election, negotiate a deal and then offer a referendum without no deal as an option not effectively ending brexit while allowing us to end austerity?

You fubpee cunts are honestly the worst brain worm victims in living memory.

# ? Sep 11, 2019 08:31

Miftan: Mar 31, 2012; Terry knows what he can do with his bloody chocolate orange...

radmonger posted:

Doing the thing you have to do is an under-rated virtue in politics.

For example, in order to win the next election, Labour would have to campaign on ending austerity and ending Brexit. This is pretty obvious to everyone; to the point where everyone here gets bored whenever it is pointed out.

Nevertheless, there remain no signs of it being done..

Yes you're right, if only labour would come out in favour of cancelling brexit they'd easily win the next election. It's OBVIOUS.

# ? Sep 11, 2019 08:31

Sanitary Naptime: May 29, 2006; MIWK!

Also lol that you think �doing what you have to� is an under rated virtue when applying it to the Lib Dem�s who �had to� prop up a Tory government for five years, absolute lmao

# ? Sep 11, 2019 08:34

Junior G-man: Sep 15, 2004; Wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma

Just get Alastair Campbell and all the hashtags. BOOM majority.

# ? Sep 11, 2019 08:34

Aphex-: Jan 29, 2006; Dinosaur Gum

Film chat - I don't care about plot or characters, as long as the cinematography is done by Roger Deakins I'll watch it.

# ? Sep 11, 2019 08:35

CGI Stardust: Nov 7, 2010; Brexit is but a door,
election time is but a window.

I'll be back

Tijuana Bibliophile posted:

That leaves you open to the riposte that "of course we couldn't campaign against brexit because our party was incredibly unpopular"

gently caress! owned once again by facts and logic

ed: another possibility: get them to agree that Brexit is being made worse by the media, then ask why the Lib Dems didn't push harder for media reform around the time of Leveson when they were in coalition

CGI Stardust fucked around with this message at 08:50 on Sep 11, 2019

# ? Sep 11, 2019 08:36

OwlFancier: Aug 22, 2013

You should tell the lib dem peer that you hope one day to see a government that will send them to the wall as traitors to the revolution, OP.

It doesn't have to be true but it'll either make them shut the gently caress up or provoke a funny reaction.

OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 08:42 on Sep 11, 2019

# ? Sep 11, 2019 08:40

Diet Crack: Jan 15, 2001

So Tom Watson is Kate Hoey in drag?

# ? Sep 11, 2019 08:51

Guavanaut: Nov 27, 2009; Looking At Them Tittys
1969 - 1998; Toilet Rascal

Just ask the Lib Dem peer how much it cost.

# ? Sep 11, 2019 08:54

Carborundum: Feb 21, 2013

Ms Adequate posted:

However, I won't be standing for this talk about Interstellar. That movie is superlative and Nolan's best. (You can't) change my mind.

It's a great movie, but it has some terrible politics, like all Nolan's films. Something to the effect of... cultural Marxist relativists take over the government and destroy science (teach that the moon landing was fake, NASA is now a secret organization) resulting in the collapse of all life on earth so that the only choice is to abandon it and presumably most of the people on it. The only ones who can save us are badass astronaut engineers and maths geniuses, implying that societal problems are can be solved with technical fixes, which are best done behind closed doors by a small group of elite people. Then at the end the utopian space colony looks exactly like a small American town, complete with baseball and white picket fences, because clearly that is such an ideal environment we'd want to recreate it in space.

# ? Sep 11, 2019 08:57

DesperateDan: Dec 10, 2005; Where's my cow?

Is that my cow?

No it isn't, but it still tramples my bloody lavender.

Ask the lib dem peer how many disabled people it was worth killing off to get that tax on plastic bags

Or better yet just start pissing on the table while loudly and repeatedly declaring that we all have to work together for the national interest

# ? Sep 11, 2019 08:58

Junior G-man: Sep 15, 2004; Wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma

Came across this and thought it might be interesting for the thread; as BoJo & co want to do an 'australian points' immigration system, what does that look like and is it feasible for the UK?

quote:

How the Australian migration model actually works

SYDNEY � The U.K. is looking to Australia for inspiration in dealing with post-Brexit immigration, with Britain�s Home Office announcing it has commissioned a review of the Aussie system.

Boris Johnson, a long-time admirer of the Australian model, made it a centerpiece of his first speech to the House of Commons after replacing Theresa May as prime minister.

�For years, politicians have promised the public an Australian-style points-based system,� Johnson said. �I will actually deliver on those promises.�

But here�s something British politicians don�t talk about : The Australian system was never designed to cut migration or to stop migrants taking Australian jobs, as Johnson has hinted it would do for the U.K. � just the opposite.

The Migration Advisory Committee�s report on the Australian model isn�t due until January 2020. But who wants to wait that long? Here�s POLITICO�s guide.

Earning points

The current iteration of Australia�s points-based system was rolled out in the mid-1990s to boost the country�s intellectual resources and fill gaps in the labor force.

Under this system, authorities assign points to would-be migrants for desirable characteristics such as youth, level of education, English and foreign language skills and work experience. A pre-determined number of people whose occupations are on a most-wanted list and who score the highest number of points are then invited to apply for a visa, without needing to have a job offer lined up.

People aged between 25 and 33, with �superior� English-language skills, at least eight years of skilled work experience (preferably in Australia), with a high level of education or a trade, who have studied in Australia and speak a foreign language, score most highly on the points test.

Some of the skilled occupations currently on Australia�s list are surgeons, economists, accountants, actuaries, certain types of engineers and scientists, computer programmers, architects and barristers, and also bricklayers, boat-builders, automotive electricians, panelbeaters, plumbers, diesel motor mechanics, carpenters, tennis coaches, electricians and chefs. These desirable jobs change depending on the labor market � for example, choreographers, geophysicists, footballers and multimedia specialists were added to the list this year, while dentists, anesthetists and watch and clockmakers and repairers were removed.

But the points-based program so beloved by some British politicians is only one aspect of the Australian system � and it�s a drop in the ocean.

In the 2017-18 financial year, the last year for which statistics are available, Australia, which has a population of about 25 million, granted 68,111 points-based visas. Compare that to the more than 3 million temporary visas granted, not counting those for tourists, including 378,292 for students, 210,456 for those on working holidays and 64,470 temporary skilled visas; plus 1.9 million visas for New Zealanders, who are allowed to visit, work and live in Australia � the country�s own version of free movement.

Just as EU citizens are a key source of labor for the U.K.�s agriculture and health industries, those temporary migrants take Australia�s hardest-to-fill jobs.

�Australia has a major source of unskilled migrants � and that�s New Zealand,� said Peter McDonald, professor of demography at the University of Melbourne. �And a lot of the temporary migrants, the working-holiday makers, also fill up a lot of the casual, unfriendly-hour type jobs in Australia.�

Meanwhile, in some sectors of the economy in the U.K., such as health and agriculture, cutting off the supply of lower-skilled EU migrants could be disastrous. Particularly as the number of EU workers arriving in the U.K. is already at its lowest level in six years, according to the Office for National Statistics � it has halved since its peak before the Brexit referendum.

The Royal College of Nursing has warned that a sudden end to free movement of EU citizens to the U.K. would cause �untold disruption� to the country�s National Health Service.

And then there�s farming.

�If you take agriculture, particularly seasonal agriculture, it is heavily, heavily dependent on migrant workers, to the extent that the vast majority of seasonal workers come from EU countries,� said Madeleine Sumption, the director of Migration Observatory at the University of Oxford. Sumption is a member of the U.K. government�s Migration Advisory Committee, which has been commissioned to review the Australian system for the Home Office.

�Especially when you look at soft fruit that are difficult to harvest with machines, production has increased significantly since EU expansion, and that�s essentially because migrant workers are there to do the picking. It is very difficult to argue that you could simply replace that workforce.

�The debate in this country is really about does the U.K. need that level of growth, does it need to be producing that much labor-intensive produce. That�s a different question.�

Migration nation

When it comes to Australia and migration, international attention in recent years has often focused on reports of horrific conditions at the country�s off-shore refugee processing centers. But as hostile as Australia is to refugees who arrive in the country by boat, it is much more welcoming to migrants who come by air.

�While Australia�s management of asylum seekers characterizes us internationally, ultimately Australia has been and is still a migration nation � 60 percent of our population growth comes from migration and has done for some time,� said Carla Wilshire, CEO of the Migration Council Australia, an independent migration think tank. �I would characterize us as having a very generous migration program, both in terms of numbers and pathways.�

In fact, almost 30 percent of Australia�s population was born overseas, compared to 14 percent in the U.K.

�It would be wrong for anyone to say that the points system is about keeping our migration numbers small,� George Brandis, Australia�s conservative former attorney general and current envoy to the U.K., told POLITICO�s London Playbook. �Our migration numbers are deliberately large.�

So much so that when Theresa May flirted with an Australian-style model, she ended up dismissing it. �What the British people voted for on 23 June [in the 2016 EU referendum] was to bring some control into the movement of people from the European Union to the U.K. A points-based system does not give you that control,� May said back in 2016.

�It�s generally seen as a liberal model that would increase migration rather than decrease it,� said Sumption.

For Canberra and for the wider Australian population, a high migrant intake is a shortcut to economic growth.

�In Australia, there�s a broad understanding in the community that migration is good for our economy and overwhelmingly most people support running a migration program for our economic interests,� Wilshire said. �In the U.K. the benefits of migration are not recognized by the broader population.�

# ? Sep 11, 2019 09:01

Guavanaut: Nov 27, 2009; Looking At Them Tittys
1969 - 1998; Toilet Rascal

Junior G-man posted:

Came across this and thought it might be interesting for the thread; as BoJo & co want to do an 'australian points' immigration system, what does that look like and is it feasible for the UK?

They want high migration because it's economically advantageous but they can't say that because of their swivel-eyed base.

They're going to end up having to accept the million Indian and half million Nigerian visas because not doing so will mean number not go up, and it's going to piss off the racists so hard they're going to end up pining for 'European Values'.

# ? Sep 11, 2019 09:13

Jose: Jul 24, 2007; Adrian Chiles is a broadcaster and writer

Interstellar is poo poo because it's a full hour too long. Watch sunshine instead

# ? Sep 11, 2019 09:26

Private Speech: Mar 30, 2011; I HAVE EVEN MORE WORTHLESS BEANIE BABIES IN MY COLLECTION THAN I HAVE WORTHLESS POSTS IN THE BEANIE BABY THREAD YET I STILL HAVE THE TEMERITY TO CRITICIZE OTHERS' COLLECTIONS

IF YOU SEE ME TALKING ABOUT BEANIE BABIES, PLEASE TELL ME TO

EAT. SHIT.

Guavanaut posted:

They want high migration because it's economically advantageous but they can't say that because of their swivel-eyed base.

They're going to end up having to accept the million Indian and half million Nigerian visas because not doing so will mean number not go up, and it's going to piss off the racists so hard they're going to end up pining for 'European Values'.

It is is nice to have dreams I suppose, but I very much doubt that.

If they're willing to trash the country to get rid of euros coming over then I wonder how far they'd go to before they'd allow the "ethnics" (to use the apparent government term) more access to the UK.

# ? Sep 11, 2019 09:31

Niric: Jul 23, 2008

Stephen Bush has a succinct and clear-minded take on the Lib Dem's positioning - why it's both unsurprising and unlikely to make a huge difference on its own

quote:

Here�s why a Liberal Democrat government would revoke Article 50

The party thinks that a sharper position will benefit it electorally and get it out of a tricky bind.

A majority Liberal Democrat government would revoke Article 50: if, that is, party members opt to back a new policy proposed by their leader Jo Swinson at their annual conference in Bournemouth next week.

Why the change? In part, it�s because of a sense that the party�s interests lie in occupying as clear and as sharp an end of the Brexit pole as possible, and also because of a belief within the party that, in the highly unlikely event that the Liberal Democrats do win a parliamentary majority, no Brexit option they could negotiate would be a credible option anyway.

They have also observed Labour�s difficulties defending their position of negotiating a new Brexit deal and putting it to a referendum in which the Labour government�s position would be up for grabs, and decided, not unreasonably, to avoid having to do something similar.

Is it a good idea? Well, it depends. There�s an element here of making a virtue out of necessity: Liberal Democrat policy is set by the party membership, and it was clear from their leadership election and from talking to their activists as a matter of course that the rank-and-file is moving towards a revoke position anyway, and there�s a value in owning the decision rather than having it made for the leadership. It provides the Liberal Democrats with two things: that all important third-party commodity of being talked about, and an insurance policy should Labour move into a full-throated second referendum position. And, of course, it positions the party well should the next election really turn out to be a realigning election in which Leave-Remain becomes the new political dividing line.

In practice, I�m not sure how much it will change things. The attack line that the Conservatives will use on Leave voters in Conservative-Liberal Democrat battlegrounds is that the Liberal Democrats want to stop Brexit, while trying to retain Remain voters by talking up their tax cuts and their spending commitments. The line that the Liberal Democrats will use on Remain voters is that they want to stop Brexit, while majoring on their usual themes of local issues, like potholes and recycling, with Leave voters.

I�m frankly unconvinced that people really believe that the Liberal Democrats are going to win a parliamentary majority, and am generally of the view that they judge the party�s platform accordingly. What really matters is that it intensifies the party�s identity as the �stop Brexit� party � which one way or another the party has already bet heavily on.

# ? Sep 11, 2019 09:37

Guavanaut: Nov 27, 2009; Looking At Them Tittys
1969 - 1998; Toilet Rascal

Jose posted:

Interstellar is poo poo because it's a full hour too long. Watch sunshine instead

I like Sunshine because it's based on that physics paper that says you can trigger a wave reaction in the sun by nuking it. Also the music's good.

Private Speech posted:

It is is nice to have dreams I suppose, but I very much doubt that.

If they're willing to trash the country to get rid of euros coming over then I wonder how far they'd go to before they'd allow the "ethnics" (to use the apparent government term) more access to the UK.

The business wing of the Tories want 'global Britain' which means they want to do some disaster capitalism on public infrastructure and then get whoever's cheapest to make number go up once it's their number.

They'll play Rule Britannia as the ships going down but as soon as the dead cat's about to bounce it'll be Filipinos in the fields instead of Romanians, with even worse working conditions.

# ? Sep 11, 2019 09:38

Niric: Jul 23, 2008

Jose posted:

Interstellar is poo poo because it's a full hour too long. Watch sunshine instead

Sunshine is poo poo because it's a full hour too long. Watch La Jet�e instead.

I'm only half joking here: the last ~1/3 of Sunshine is complete dogshit, which is a shame because the first 2/3 is great

# ? Sep 11, 2019 09:41

Jedit: Dec 10, 2011; Proudly supporting vanilla legends 1994-2014

Niric posted:

Stephen Bush has a succinct and clear-minded take on the Lib Dem's positioning - why it's both unsurprising and unlikely to make a huge difference on its own

That's not exactly succinct. The succinct version is "the Lib Dems have to be more anti-Brexit than Labour. If Labour said they'd revoke A50 on day 1, the Lib Dems would campaign for the UK to adopt the Euro".

# ? Sep 11, 2019 09:42

Private Speech: Mar 30, 2011; I HAVE EVEN MORE WORTHLESS BEANIE BABIES IN MY COLLECTION THAN I HAVE WORTHLESS POSTS IN THE BEANIE BABY THREAD YET I STILL HAVE THE TEMERITY TO CRITICIZE OTHERS' COLLECTIONS

IF YOU SEE ME TALKING ABOUT BEANIE BABIES, PLEASE TELL ME TO

EAT. SHIT.

Guavanaut posted:

They'll play Rule Britannia as the ships going down but as soon as the dead cat's about to bounce it'll be Filipinos in the fields instead of Romanians, with even worse working conditions.

Oh yeah sure, but they'll just introduce some new time-limited agri-only worker visa (like Malaysia has) for that. There's no way they'd let in a million+ people more on the existing (i.e. still somehow comparatively generous) visa system that allows for settlement. They might even call it a "point-based" visa for the extra credit with their base.

# ? Sep 11, 2019 09:42

namesake: Jun 19, 2006; "When I was a girl, around 12 or 13, I had a fantasy that I'd grow up to marry Captain Scarlet, but he'd be busy fighting the Mysterons so I'd cuckold him with the sexiest people I could think of - Nigel Mansell, Pat Sharp and Mr. Blobby."

Vlex posted:

Arrival owned, fight me IRL in a parking lot of your choice.

I think I know how this'll end.

So you're on!

# ? Sep 11, 2019 09:42

radmonger: Jun 6, 2011

Miftan posted:

Yes you're right, if only labour would come out in favour of cancelling brexit they'd easily win the next election. It's OBVIOUS.

It�s more that if Labour had a coherent, agreed and sellable Brexit position then a good campaign and high youth turnout might avoid a vote collapse into third place.

# ? Sep 11, 2019 09:47

Guavanaut: Nov 27, 2009; Looking At Them Tittys
1969 - 1998; Toilet Rascal

Private Speech posted:

Oh yeah sure, but they'll just introduce some new time-limited agri-only worker visa (like Malaysia has) for that. There's no way they'd let in a million+ people more on the existing (i.e. still somehow comparatively generous) visa system that allows for settlement. They might even call it a "point-based" visa for the extra credit with their base.

The ironic thing is that the temporary agricultural workers are a big reason that a lot of the rural Midlands thinks that the UK is 60% immigrants and immigrants do crimes and it's all the EUs fault, because farms took to hiring literal crime bosses to traffic around temporary farm labor (the other reason is racism). I'm sure they'll love the different trafficked workers same crime bosses system.

# ? Sep 11, 2019 09:50

ShaneMacGowansTeeth: May 22, 2007; I think this is it... I think this is how it ends

I want a Transformers movie in the style of Bumblebee but with an extended cast and more John Cena

# ? Sep 11, 2019 09:52

Miftan: Mar 31, 2012; Terry knows what he can do with his bloody chocolate orange...

radmonger posted:

It’s more that if Labour had a coherent, agreed and sellable Brexit position then a good campaign and high youth turnout might avoid a vote collapse into third place.

They do have that, though I suppose 'sellable' is subjective. Its also been pointing out about a million times itt and you keep ignoring it.

# ? Sep 11, 2019 09:59

OwlFancier: Aug 22, 2013

It me, the man who invokes sellability but believes the market is an infinite ocean of demand.

# ? Sep 11, 2019 10:00

josh04: Oct 19, 2008; "THE FLASH IS THE REASON
TO RACE TO THE THEATRES"
_{This title contains sponsored content.}

Jose posted:

Interstellar is poo poo because it's a full hour too long. Watch sunshine instead

People happily watch 10+ hours of Netflix garbage, no film is too long anymore.

# ? Sep 11, 2019 10:03

Guavanaut: Nov 27, 2009; Looking At Them Tittys
1969 - 1998; Toilet Rascal

love too be mandatory civil partnered to a hedgehog

# ? Sep 11, 2019 10:04

Jaeluni Asjil: Apr 18, 2018; Sorry I thought you were a landlord when I gave you your old avatar!

Private Speech posted:

A complete chat post but I've been learning Arabic lately and

that is a, uhh, interesting, choice of practice sentence?

e: VVVV

Random note but the web version lets you write everything out manually instead of using the word bank, I find it's quite educational albeit considerably more challenging (I really need to make an Arabic overlay for my keyboard). There's some other extra features too, and a bunch more explanations to go with the lessons. Might be worth trying out if you haven't.

While waiting for a plane at the lovely Bristol Airport ...
One of my accomplishments was getting up to 28wpm copy typing Arabic on a keyboard with no Arabic letters :smug:

Now my keyboard has Arabic letters on it so I don't take my laptop out to play in case I get some idiot refusing to fly on a plane with me on it.

I already have to leave my maths books at home lest someone report me for being a supporter of known terror group Al Gebra.

# ? Sep 11, 2019 10:06

coffeetable: Feb 5, 2006; TELL ME AGAIN HOW GREAT BRITAIN WOULD BE IF IT WAS RULED BY THE MERCILESS JACKBOOT OF PRINCE CHARLES

YES I DO TALK TO PLANTS ACTUALLY

Miftan posted:

They do have that, though I suppose 'sellable' is subjective. Its also been pointing out about a million times itt and you keep ignoring it.

weirdly it's been pointed out no matter which of the dozen or so brexit policies that the labour leadership was on board with at that moment

# ? Sep 11, 2019 10:07

Guavanaut: Nov 27, 2009; Looking At Them Tittys
1969 - 1998; Toilet Rascal

Jaeluni Asjil posted:

Now my keyboard has Arabic letters on it so I don't take my laptop out to play in case I get some idiot refusing to fly on a plane with me on it.

I wondered who this stock image was for.

# ? Sep 11, 2019 10:09

Jedit: Dec 10, 2011; Proudly supporting vanilla legends 1994-2014

Scottish courts just ruled the prorogation unlawful. Watch this space.

# ? Sep 11, 2019 10:11

The_Doctor: Mar 29, 2007; "The entire history of this incarnation is one of temporal orbits, retcons, paradoxes, parallel time lines, reiterations, and divergences. How anyone can make head or tail of all this chaos, I don't know."