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GATOS Y VATOS posted:Considering that only three, or arguably four, of the Japanese Godzilla films could be considered capital C cinema and the rest are fun kids films a whole lot of you have some kind of elevated view of them. Get out of the thread imo.
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Sep 12, 2019 20:07
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:"World building" isn't real and there isn't a single franchise that doesn't discard/mutate both thematic and plot elements from one film to another. I agree, and discarding certain elements can be done well to tell a story that people connect with, or poorly to create dissonance between two related movies. KOTM felt very much like the latter to me, particularly with regards to Godzilla's new characterization as a vengeful and petty titan.
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Sep 12, 2019 21:38
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Get out of the thread imo. you would think 15 Godzilla movies getting added to the Criterion collection would get people to accept they're actual movies but i guess not
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Sep 12, 2019 21:43
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Uncle Boogeyman posted:you would think 15 Godzilla movies getting added to the Criterion collection would get people to accept they're actual movies but i guess not They should have added all 30+ 
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Sep 12, 2019 21:44
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Shouldn’t “capital C cinema” have an actual capital C?
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Sep 12, 2019 21:46
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DeimosRising posted:Shouldn’t “capital C cinema” have an actual capital C? lol
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Sep 12, 2019 21:48
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Dammerung posted:I agree, and discarding certain elements can be done well to tell a story that people connect with, or poorly to create dissonance between two related movies. KOTM felt very much like the latter to me, particularly with regards to Godzilla's new characterization as a vengeful and petty titan. The end of Godzilla '14 is "Savior of the City? this dude wrecked a whole bunch of stuff" and KOTM is "savior of all humanity, actually, and yeah he wrecks stuff"
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Sep 12, 2019 21:52
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:The end of Godzilla '14 is "Savior of the City? this dude wrecked a whole bunch of stuff" and KOTM is "savior of all humanity, actually, and yeah he wrecks stuff" "For now" is the last stated line in the movie. It hardly seems to establish him as a savior of humanity out of anything other than convenience. Compare the bridge scene in 2014 and his brief encounter with Ford Brody to his return/resurrection in KOTM, there's a huge distinction in how he treats and responds to humanity.
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Sep 12, 2019 21:55
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He looks at them and shows off. The movie is obsessed with displays of power from the good-guy kaiju in it, whether it be Mothra unfurling her big beautiful glowing wings or Godzilla blowing big blue atomic fireworks. I do agree that some of the "I'm too old for this poo poo" angle of Godzilla from '14 got dropped but it wasn't replaced by malevolence.
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Sep 12, 2019 22:07
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:He looks at them and shows off. The movie is obsessed with displays of power from the good-guy kaiju in it, whether it be Mothra unfurling her big beautiful glowing wings or Godzilla blowing big blue atomic fireworks. I’d actually pinpoint that as being the main failure of the movie: the monsters have this almost desperation to impress that ultimately makes them come across as smaller. Like, psychologically small. The gold guy bites a power line and blasts the entire sky with electricity, and I can’t for the life of me tell you how this makes him more dangerous than he was previously - let alone why he didn’t do it earlier.
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Sep 12, 2019 22:27
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:He looks at them and shows off. The movie is obsessed with displays of power from the good-guy kaiju in it, whether it be Mothra unfurling her big beautiful glowing wings or Godzilla blowing big blue atomic fireworks. Why do they feel the need to show off and intimidate humans? To me, it made them look either needlessly cruel or frightened of humans. Which is an interesting direction to take the titans in, it almost reminded me of GINO. And I would disagree about Godzilla not acting negatively - if this isn't malevolence, it's the next closest thing.
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Sep 12, 2019 22:39
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:I’d actually pinpoint that as being the main failure of the movie: the monsters have this almost desperation to impress that ultimately makes them come across as smaller. Like, psychologically small. I mean, that's a fair criticism. G'14 destroys your town without even intending to because it's an anthill to him and he's on the way to a Big Rumble. G'19 flexes and poses and shows off to you. Look at meeeeee! Good thing I did, in fact, want to look at him. Dammerung posted:And I would disagree about Godzilla not acting negatively - if this isn't malevolence, it's the next closest thing. It's a badass glower, gimme a break. If Godzilla wanted those guys dead they're fuckin' dead. Again it's "I'm so badass, look at how badass I am!"
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Sep 12, 2019 22:45
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:It's a badass glower, gimme a break. If Godzilla wanted those guys dead they're fuckin' dead. Again it's "I'm so badass, look at how badass I am!" Godzilla 2019 seems small and insecure and the furthest thing from a badass, especially because he wouldn't be alive without those guys that he's glowering at. And your characterization of Godzilla in the 2014 movie has some holes in it. Have you ever had this kind of a moment with an ant? It seems telling to me that Godzilla 2019's characterization can be reduced down to "he's trying to be a badass" whereas Godzilla 2014 is a bit less easily defined.
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Sep 12, 2019 22:57
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Dammerung posted:Godzilla 2019 seems small and insecure and the furthest thing from a badass, especially because he wouldn't be alive without those guys that he's glowering at. Those guys also hosed him over in the first place. He was winning. I've never said Godzilla thinks people are ants, but it's totally in the film's text that he fucks up most of Oahu with a tsunami and doesn't give a poo poo, nor does he give a poo poo about the skyscraper he turfs the male MUTO into. BTW if I find an ant or a spider in my house I put it outside. But I've definitely hosed up all their poo poo when gardening and not particularly cared. Things to do.
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Sep 12, 2019 23:09
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The G14 Godzilla was doing pest control. The G19 Godzilla was facing a challenger for his crown; he acknowledges humans helped him but he makes sure they recognize he is in charge, especially considering humans reacted to every move he made in the movie with aggression, up to trying to kill him. If humans want to join the fight, they need to recognize their place as a subordinate to his rule. Godzilla enforced peaceful coexistence between titans and humans, but that ultimately keeps both groups in check. He's not really protecting us from titan aggression, he's keeping everyone in line
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Sep 12, 2019 23:11
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DeimosRising posted:Shouldn’t “capital C cinema” have an actual capital C? No that would just be “Cinema” instead of explaining it as “capital C cinema” for emphasis. I love G movies and have been watching them for longer than most of you have probably been alive but I wouldn’t call most of them important movies or anything. But they are great fun.
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Sep 12, 2019 23:14
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Arcsquad12 posted:The G14 Godzilla was doing pest control. The G19 Godzilla was facing a challenger for his crown; he acknowledges humans helped him but he makes sure they recognize he is in charge, especially considering humans reacted to every move he made in the movie with aggression, up to trying to kill him. If humans want to join the fight, they need to recognize their place as a subordinate to his rule. Godzilla enforced peaceful coexistence between titans and humans, but that ultimately keeps both groups in check. He's not really protecting us from titan aggression, he's keeping everyone in line You might even say he's the king....of the monsters.
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Sep 12, 2019 23:21
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GATOS Y VATOS posted:No that would just be “Cinema” instead of explaining it as “capital C cinema” for emphasis. Honestly you're probably about right on Movies that Try To Be Actual Movies, related to Godzilla. Just on the Japanese side, since all of the American ones have done so with gusto even if the end result can be questionable, you have G'54, Godzilla VS Mothra '64, (GRA is way too much of a quickie cash grab for its own good. It COULD Have been a classic if they gave it more time and some more script passes but they didn't) G'84, and Shin Godzilla Godzilla VS Destroyah is an interesting one as is Biollante, but neither try to be as cinematic as the other films. They're borderline cases. This does not denote The Best or even My Favorite Godzilla films- because Godzilla VS MechaGodzilla '74 is one of my all time favorite Godzilla films ever- but yeah. VS Mothra is the big exception to the VS rule because it's tackled with a lot of sincerity and earnestness, where it really is about the over all story rather than the title fight.
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Sep 12, 2019 23:45
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:Those guys also hosed him over in the first place. He was winning. Both of those things are in the film's text, but they don't support a Godzilla which can be as easily defined as him wanting to act like a badass. I guess that's where a lot of my love for his characterization comes from - he's certainly powerful, but much more enigmatic and less easily comprehensible or defined. Arcsquad12 posted:The G14 Godzilla was doing pest control. The G19 Godzilla was facing a challenger for his crown; he acknowledges humans helped him but he makes sure they recognize he is in charge, especially considering humans reacted to every move he made in the movie with aggression, up to trying to kill him. If humans want to join the fight, they need to recognize their place as a subordinate to his rule. Godzilla enforced peaceful coexistence between titans and humans, but that ultimately keeps both groups in check. He's not really protecting us from titan aggression, he's keeping everyone in line The MUTOs were implied to be responsible for the deaths of his relatives way back when and almost killed him in a straight fight. I'm not sure if I would agree with it being only pest control in that context! Ford Brody's role in 2014 was only different from those within Monarch in 2019 by virtue of him not being part of a larger group/organization. Godzilla didn't feel the need to react to humanity's previous efforts to kill him in 2014 or threaten them (as highlighted by his reaction to getting shot at, interactions with Ford, and peaceful departure at the end of the film.) Going along the new motivations for the actions of the 2019 Godzilla, it seems that what distinguishes him from how he was in 2014 is that he's more frightened and insecure, which are interesting traits for sure! Not ones that I necessarily like, but they do seem part of an interesting interpretation of the character.
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Sep 13, 2019 00:28
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Dammerung posted:Why do they feel the need to show off and intimidate humans? To me, it made them look either needlessly cruel or frightened of humans. Which is an interesting direction to take the titans in, it almost reminded me of GINO. Because humans are the other Apex predator. They literally state this in the movie.
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Sep 13, 2019 03:19
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Vince MechMahon posted:Because humans are the other Apex predator. They literally state this in the movie. Humans aren’t apex predators.
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Sep 13, 2019 03:56
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Vince MechMahon posted:Because humans are the other Apex predator. They literally state this in the movie. It seems like the Oxygen Destroyer would have been what convinced Godzilla, but we also see him pitching tantrums while Monarch is monitoring him. What was the moment wherein the switch happened in Godzilla's mind? It's another weird detail that doesn't seem to go anywhere and is only confusing when 2014 is brought into the equation.
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Sep 13, 2019 04:05
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Dammerung posted:It seems like the Oxygen Destroyer would have been what convinced Godzilla, but we also see him pitching tantrums while Monarch is monitoring him. What was the moment wherein the switch happened in Godzilla's mind? It's another weird detail that doesn't seem to go anywhere and is only confusing when 2014 is brought into the equation. He only started getting aggressive to humanity when he realized they were about to release Ghidorah. That wasn't him being a dick for no reason, that was him telling them to KNOCK THAT poo poo OFF
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Sep 13, 2019 04:10
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Burkion posted:He only started getting aggressive to humanity when he realized they were about to release Ghidorah. How would he know that?
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Sep 13, 2019 04:46
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Burkion posted:He only started getting aggressive to humanity when he realized they were about to release Ghidorah. Why didn't he go there to stop them? Why screw around for years threatening researchers?
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Sep 13, 2019 04:52
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:How would he know that? Because he could hear the signal they were using. This isn't very difficult. They set off the signal to wake up Ghidorah, Godzilla gets pissed off You can make it more than it is and question it but that is the intent
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Sep 13, 2019 04:52
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Burkion posted:Because he could hear the signal they were using. But the scene with the Orca being used to awaken Ghidorah doesn't happen until after Godzilla threatens the Monarch researchers. And why did he threaten them if they weren't the ones waking up Ghidorah?
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Sep 13, 2019 04:58
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Humans aren’t apex predators. I mean this is wrong but I think I get what you mean: a lion or whatever can eat one human just fine. A group of humans, especially ones who live in some sort of society, are absolutely a 'collective apex predator', so to speak. The film then tries to extrapolate this out to 'human civilisation is the newest kaiju', which is dumb, because even an idiot animal could look at humans and figure out there's a bunch of different groups all fighting each other. We're not even a bunch of smaller organisms working together like a man o' war, because man o' wars don't nuke themselves.
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Sep 13, 2019 07:13
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ungulateman posted:I mean this is wrong but I think I get what you mean: a lion or whatever can eat one human just fine. A group of humans, especially ones who live in some sort of society, are absolutely a 'collective apex predator', so to speak. No, it’s like the ‘alpha’ thing - what you’ve written is how the scientific term is used in everyday speech, but it’s not really true except under very specific conditions. Apex predator status is determined by what’s called a species’ ‘trophic level’, and humanity is collectively too omnivorous to qualify. The amount of plants in the human diet puts them near the middle of the metaphorical pyramid. (From what I understand, human trophic levels only begin to approach the apex in specific communities that rely heavily on fish for sustenance.)
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Sep 13, 2019 13:41
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Likewise, Godzilla, who seems to subsist primarily on radiation, is more similar to plants or some hydrothermal bacteria than a predator of any sort.
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Sep 13, 2019 16:22
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Schwarzwald posted:Likewise, Godzilla, who seems to subsist primarily on radiation, is more similar to plants or some hydrothermal bacteria than a predator of any sort. Exactly - Earth’s top apex predators are actually killer whales, and they are usually considered endangered species. (Imagine Godzilla crushing a pod of orcas because he feels threatened by their apex predator status. Shamu, Queen Of The Animals!) People are (mis)using these terms to express value judgements, so “apex predator” here means best at violence. And this concept of apex/alpha predator is then conflated with the concept of “alpha males” to create this fantasy ecology where the animals who are ‘best at violence’ become the dads of other species. SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 17:03 on Sep 13, 2019 |
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Sep 13, 2019 17:00
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Remember that when you use words you must use them only in their most strick scientific usage.
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Sep 13, 2019 18:14
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UmOk posted:strick Please do not troll
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Sep 13, 2019 18:28
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UmOk posted:Remember that when you use words you must use them only in their most strick scientific usage. You don’t have to do anything, but actions have consequences. In this case, the consequence is that the characters in the film are pseudoscientists and their explanations for the animals’ behaviour are false.
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Sep 13, 2019 18:33
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I totally understand ignoring the "human parts" of a Godzilla movie to enjoy the monster fights. I'd argue that they're one story and it doesn't make sense to do that, but I get it. But the family drama in this Godzilla movie is too obnoxious to be ignored.
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Sep 13, 2019 18:34
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Captain Invictus posted:imagine thinking kotm is more than just okay with a bucket full of caveats, what an oblivious existence 
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Sep 13, 2019 19:02
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Halloween Jack posted:I totally understand ignoring the "human parts" of a Godzilla movie to enjoy the monster fights. I'd argue that they're one story and it doesn't make sense to do that, but I get it. But the family drama in this Godzilla movie is too obnoxious to be ignored. And yet, I ignored it.
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Sep 13, 2019 19:07
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Why would you watch a movie like KOTM with boring characters when you can watch a movie like Godzilla vs Megalon about an inventor guy with a cool houseand his "friend" that races cars and their robot that can changes size at will.
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Sep 13, 2019 19:24
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:And yet, I ignored it. “I don’t care that the human character suck; I just watch these movies for the monster action.” Ok, so what are the monsters actually, like, doing? Their actions and motives are really unclear. “Well according to the human characters...” SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 19:56 on Sep 13, 2019 |
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Sep 13, 2019 19:37
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:And yet, I ignored it. I think that any film which is only enjoyable/tolerable if half of it is ignored can't be considered a good film. Enjoyable, sure, but certainly not good. Would it perhaps be more accurate to say that there are a number of scenes in the movie that, when removed from context, you find very enjoyable?
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Sep 13, 2019 19:56
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