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https://twitter.com/OsitaNwanevu/status/1172535347277905920
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Sep 13, 2019 17:02
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Office Pig posted:You wouldn’t get the impression of a commitment from what’s given in this article, and if her idea of single-payer is the plan posted on her site that vaguely promises as much while leaving mental healthcare to private wolves, the answer is a resounding ‘no’. I get the impression that Warren just doesn't really know what she's talking about when the topic of healthcare is discussed (which in terms of her hypothetical presidency likely translates to "she would pass something approved by industry/think tanks"). She's just extremely vague and sometimes self-contradictory on the topic. To increase my confidence that she actually supports the bill in question, I would at least want to see specific references to it being single-payer and involving zero cost at point of service. Any sane person should respond with deep skepticism when a politician isn't specific on something like this, and Warren doesn't have the sort of background that should make people default to a generous interpretation of her words (with the possible exception of the topic of banking regulation, where she has some actual history to speak of). The fact that Warren almost never talks about specifics of the actual Medicare for All bill (and just uses the term like it's some vague goal) should be a huge red flag. I don't think she's maliciously trying to trick people or anything, but I get the impression she just kinda means well but is personally ignorant and will likely have the instinct to trust authorities like industry and think tanks (which is one of the bigger differences between her and Sanders - she still functions as part of the "Democratic establishment," which encompasses all the organizations, think tanks, etc that guide Democratic strategy and policy).
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Sep 13, 2019 17:07
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My hunch is that Warren actually does support M4A, specifically Bernie's bill (she said this last night), but is afraid to say it too loudly, lest she receive the full brunt of the "she's a socialist!" criticism that Bernie is receiving. And of course she is leaving open the possibility that she can change to something "better" (worse, actually!) down the line to appeal to more moderates.
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Sep 13, 2019 17:16
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Top story on CNN.com right now:
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Sep 13, 2019 17:22
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Mahoning posted:My hunch is that Warren actually does support M4A, specifically Bernie's bill (she said this last night), but is afraid to say it too loudly, lest she receive the full brunt of the "she's a socialist!" criticism that Bernie is receiving. And of course she is leaving open the possibility that she can change to something "better" (worse, actually!) down the line to appeal to more moderates. Regardless of what she really believes, she's tacking right on rhetoric and making compromises compared to Bernie's plans before the fight even begins.
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Sep 13, 2019 17:25
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Mahoning posted:My hunch is that Warren actually does support M4A, specifically Bernie's bill (she said this last night), but is afraid to say it too loudly, lest she receive the full brunt of the "she's a socialist!" criticism that Bernie is receiving. And of course she is leaving open the possibility that she can change to something "better" (worse, actually!) down the line to appeal to more moderates. This is true. Also, https://twitter.com/johnlevenstein/status/1172545868441931776
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Sep 13, 2019 17:26
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DaveWoo posted:Top story on CNN.com right now: lmao at the media punishing this guy for the only good political thing he's done.
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Sep 13, 2019 17:29
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DaveWoo posted:Top story on CNN.com right now: As if the republican candidate wouldn't have done this if Beto hadn't done this?
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Sep 13, 2019 17:30
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DaveWoo posted:Top story on CNN.com right now: Well they're right.
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Sep 13, 2019 17:30
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Mahoning posted:My hunch is that Warren actually does support M4A, specifically Bernie's bill (she said this last night), but is afraid to say it too loudly, lest she receive the full brunt of the "she's a socialist!" criticism that Bernie is receiving. And of course she is leaving open the possibility that she can change to something "better" (worse, actually!) down the line to appeal to more moderates. My hunch is that the "capitalist to my bones" lady who is leaving handwritten notes in Chuck Schumer's lunch is being intentionally obscure because if she said what she really thinks about health insurance she'd lose a ton of support immediately and not so she can avoid the socialist label Bernie gave himself 40 years ago.
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Sep 13, 2019 17:32
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Mahoning posted:My hunch is that Warren actually does support M4A, specifically Bernie's bill (she said this last night), but is afraid to say it too loudly, lest she receive the full brunt of the "she's a socialist!" criticism that Bernie is receiving. And of course she is leaving open the possibility that she can change to something "better" (worse, actually!) down the line to appeal to more moderates. So by "hunch" you mean "something I've decided to believe with no evidence"
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Sep 13, 2019 17:33
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Klob isn't a choice in this post-debate poll even in the second tweet that featured the lower-tier candidates https://twitter.com/Politics_Polls/status/1172350407445831680 zetamind2000 fucked around with this message at 17:49 on Sep 13, 2019 |
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Sep 13, 2019 17:41
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kidkissinger posted:So by "hunch" you mean "something I've decided to believe with no evidence" Yes. Something literally all of us do all day on this website.
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Sep 13, 2019 17:42
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gohmak posted:Well they're right. The Republicans weren't going to wait for a Democrat to say something like this before they called dems gun grabbers. If beto didnt say anything, the Republicans would just make it up.
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Sep 13, 2019 17:43
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Meatball posted:The Republicans weren't going to wait for a Democrat to say something like this before they called dems gun grabbers. but they don't have to make it up because he said it.
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Sep 13, 2019 17:44
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Mahoning posted:Yes. Something literally all of us do all day on this website. idk, i'd say that claiming a politician secretly supports something when they've shown publicly that they really don't is different than most assumptions people here make edit: 
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Sep 13, 2019 17:44
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kidkissinger posted:idk, i'd say that claiming a politician secretly supports something when they've shown publicly that they really don't is different than most assumptions people here make She said last night in an interview that she supports Bernie's M4A bill and that she doesn't have a competing plan because its not about who comes up with plans first. Call me crazy for using that as my basis for her silently supporting M4A until something "better" comes along.
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Sep 13, 2019 17:47
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Mahoning posted:Yes. Something literally all of us do all day on this website. Doubting the sincerity of a candidate who won’t shy away from money given by the people she says she wants to regulate while having hush meetings with the Clintons and their machine has a bit more meat than a “hunch” that relies upon what’s in someone’s heart of hearts.
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Sep 13, 2019 17:48
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gohmak posted:but they don't have to make it up because he said it. Theres functionally no difference between a dem saying it and the Republicans making it up. The dem base wont listen and the Republican base isnt even in this reality. Plus since hes not going to win the primary it could be spun as "yeah we aren't doing that, that's one of the reasons beto lost" though I'd agree it would be different if beto had a chance of taking the nomination.
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Sep 13, 2019 17:48
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Office Pig posted:Doubting the sincerity of a candidate who won’t shy away from money given by the people she says she wants to regulate while having hush meetings with the Clintons and their machine has a bit more meat than a “hunch” that relies upon what’s in someone’s heart of hearts. also while putting out plans that are at odds with M4A, such as her mental healthcare plan
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Sep 13, 2019 17:50
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Mahoning posted:My hunch is that Warren actually does support M4A, specifically Bernie's bill (she said this last night), but is afraid to say it too loudly, lest she receive the full brunt of the "she's a socialist!" criticism that Bernie is receiving. And of course she is leaving open the possibility that she can change to something "better" (worse, actually!) down the line to appeal to more moderates. are you channeling Robbie Mook and doing the 2019 version of not campaigning in Michigan and Wisconsin is a tactically brilliant move?
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Sep 13, 2019 17:53
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kidkissinger posted:also while putting out plans that are at odds with M4A, such as her mental healthcare plan You do realize that Medicare for All is a 4 year rollout (even in a best case scenario) and that Behavioral Health Coverage Transparency Act would help millions of people during the transition period, don't you? Phone posted:are you channeling Robbie Mook and doing the 2019 version of not campaigning in Michigan and Wisconsin is a tactically brilliant move? I'm not defending that as a good strategy. In fact, I'm saying it is bad and saying she is two-faced for hedging her bets. I'm not sure how this turned into me being an Elizabeth Warren shill.
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Sep 13, 2019 17:54
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Mahoning posted:You do realize that Medicare for All is a 4 year rollout (even in a best case scenario) and that Behavioral Health Coverage Transparency Act would help millions of people during the transition period, don't you? Yeah that’s right, give me that good stuff. Gimme that showing up to the $15 an hour minimum wage debate arguing that $12.50 is more realistic.
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Sep 13, 2019 17:55
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Ytlaya posted:I get the impression that Warren just doesn't really know what she's talking about when the topic of healthcare is discussed (which in terms of her hypothetical presidency likely translates to "she would pass something approved by industry/think tanks"). She's just extremely vague and sometimes self-contradictory on the topic. To increase my confidence that she actually supports the bill in question, I would at least want to see specific references to it being single-payer and involving zero cost at point of service. This sounds plausible to me, but it leaves an important deeper question unanswered: if she doesn't know what she's talking about when it comes to healthcare, then why doesn't she? She doesn't have a background in climate policy either, but that hasn't stopped her from issuing a detailed climate plan. As the wonkish "I have a plan for everything" candidate, presumably she either read up on the subject until she understood it, or she consulted experts and advocates to learn about it and formulate a plan with their help. Similarly, she went from not knowing a drat thing about Native issues to offering a decent Native American policy within a couple of months. Why wouldn't she do the same for healthcare? The most obvious answer is the same reason that she didn't bone up on Native issues during her years in politics until it finally blew up in her face. Which was because she didn't really care, and just went along with the political flow without really caring what the details turn out as. Medicare For All is popular, so she's signaling her support for it as a general buzzword, but she's clearly not too set in what the details will be.
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Sep 13, 2019 17:55
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DaveWoo posted:Top story on CNN.com right now: Cilizza is loving brain cancer made sentient.
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Sep 13, 2019 17:56
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Mahoning posted:You do realize that Medicare for All is a 4 year rollout (even in a best case scenario) and that Behavioral Health Coverage Transparency Act would help millions of people during the transition period, don't you? This is a huge indictment of Warren as the candidate with "plans" since she never ever mentions this plan you're proposing. If BHCTA was intended to be only a stop-gap as an element of a larger plan, it is sure a shame that Warren refuses to release a healthcare plan and instead forces people like you to guess what she intents.
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Sep 13, 2019 17:59
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Fundamentally it’s easy to not care about the details when you actually don’t care at all. For all of the plans and brilliant 9th dimensional chess, she clearly doesn’t care because giving the answer “we can figure it out in post” is kicking the ball down the road. What are you going to do? Call her bluff? We all know how that worked out with Guantanamo.
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Sep 13, 2019 17:59
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Mahoning posted:My hunch is that Warren actually does support M4A, specifically Bernie's bill (she said this last night), but is afraid to say it too loudly, lest she receive the full brunt of the "she's a socialist!" criticism that Bernie is receiving. And of course she is leaving open the possibility that she can change to something "better" (worse, actually!) down the line to appeal to more moderates. If she's afraid to say it then she's afraid to do it.
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Sep 13, 2019 18:03
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Mahoning posted:She said last night in an interview that she supports Bernie's M4A bill and that she doesn't have a competing plan because its not about who comes up with plans first. To add to your point, quote:Ady Barkan: You are a supporter of a medicare for all single payer system that makes the private insurance industry irrelevant and phases everybody into medicare. Why is that approach better than the others on the table? This exchange makes it sound like she's in favor getting rid of private insurance companies and adopting single-payer. https://twitter.com/AdyBarkan/status/1171402259437162497?s=20
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Sep 13, 2019 18:04
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Trabisnikof posted:This is a huge indictment of Warren as the candidate with "plans" since she never ever mentions this plan you're proposing. I completely agree. After I saw that interview with her last night I am wondering what on earth she is thinking by not saying "I support Bernie Sanders' Medicare for All bill. Full Stop. We agree on that even if we disagree on other things." But there is this SUPER weird thing where not only do Sanders and Warren refuse to attack each other, they barely even acknowledge or engage each other. Like both campaigns have refused to disagree OR AGREE with each other to try to gain support on their own and keep away from the "these two are the same" takes that still seem to come from the lovely centrist Dems. I just don't understand Warren's campaign at all and disagree with the conventional wisdom out there that says she is running the best campaign. The best strategy I think I can come up with that would explain her campaign's actions or lack thereof is that she is being as vanilla as possible while spitting out wonky "I've got a plan for that poo poo" to run out the clock until either Bernie or Biden are eliminated and will shift her position to gather up either the centrist or progressive wings based on whoever bows out. To be clear: I think this strategy is bad and makes her bad. Bad. temple posted:If she's afraid to say it then she's afraid to do it. I agree. Me (poorly) explaining her actions/motivations is not me endorsing those actions or motivations. Stop acting like I'm supporting or defending her. Mahoning fucked around with this message at 18:12 on Sep 13, 2019 |
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Sep 13, 2019 18:09
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Mahoning posted:But there is this SUPER weird thing where not only do Sanders and Warren refuse to attack each other, they barely even acknowledge or engage each other. Like both campaigns have refused to disagree OR AGREE with each other to try to gain support on their own and keep away from the "these two are the same" takes that still seem to come from the lovely centrist Dems. I don't think it's that weird. They knew going in that escaping a Biden or Harris presidency would be difficult, and they almost assuredly agreed to non-aggression before the campaign even started. I'd be willing to bet they also have an agreement to endorse one another should one of them drop out. They don't want to appear as Team Bernie+Warren though because their politics genuinely differ, and they are playing to different demographics. It's not super helpful for either of them to appear to be the two-headed communist giant or whatever.
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Sep 13, 2019 18:16
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Mahoning posted:To be clear: I think this strategy is bad and makes her bad. Bad. Then stop saying poo poo like “I believe in Warren’s kokoro (translator’s note: ‘heart’) that she is going to implement Bernie’s m4a proposal”.
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Sep 13, 2019 18:17
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ihatepants posted:To add to your point, Yet it falls short of a commitment to action for the sake of nodding in agreement to a nice idea she can easily find a ‘path’ to M4A that can packaged as any number if incremental reforms. Extolling the benefits is one thing but it’s not really a guarantee that it would remain a priority after securing any more power within a party she has already chosen to temper her image with.
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Sep 13, 2019 18:19
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Phone posted:Then stop saying poo poo like “I believe in Warren’s kokoro (translator’s note: ‘heart’) that she is going to implement Bernie’s m4a proposal”. I didn't say that, I said she supports it quietly (her own interviews back this up. one is posted on this very page, go check!) but for some strange reason (ie. she is planning on NOT supporting it at some point) doesn't really bring it up that often or place it prominently on her webpage.
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Sep 13, 2019 18:20
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 skylined! posted:Cilizza is loving brain cancer made sentient. That's far too kind. Brain cancers hold Republicans to account. Ague Proof fucked around with this message at 18:33 on Sep 13, 2019 |
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Sep 13, 2019 18:23
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Mahoning posted:I didn't say that, I said she supports it quietly (her own interviews back this up. one is posted on this very page, go check!) but for some strange reason (ie. she is planning on NOT supporting it at some point) doesn't really bring it up that often or place it prominently on her webpage. I suspect it's because she thinks either A) there's no way anything eliminating private insurance passes so promising it is a bad idea, or B) because finance is clearly her priority she think she won't have any remaining political capital for a second fight with a major industry after her flagship stuff goes through. I think that's a poor and overly cautious attitude but I don't think it's coming from a position of 'she secretly hates healthcare'.
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Sep 13, 2019 18:26
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Chilichimp posted:oh just die already
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Sep 13, 2019 18:29
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fool_of_sound posted:I don't think it's that weird. They knew going in that escaping a Biden or Harris presidency would be difficult, and they almost assuredly agreed to non-aggression before the campaign even started. I'd be willing to bet they also have an agreement to endorse one another should one of them drop out. They don't want to appear as Team Bernie+Warren though because their politics genuinely differ, and they are playing to different demographics. It's not super helpful for either of them to appear to be the two-headed communist giant or whatever. It's also a good rope-a-dope strategy that helps them both out. Bernie takes heat for being too far left thereby making Warren look more palatable, especially to the media class. Bernie gets to be Bernie, Warren gets a nice bump. Together they push the Overton window left. The Warren campaign needs Bernie since he acts as a shield for them, giving them legitimacy. The Bernie campaign needs Warren because she forces the media to actually discuss policy, so it doesn't become a succdem coronation. Having to actually, you know, talk about issues is what made the Harris and Beto campaigns collapse and it's prevented the Buttman from gaining traction beyond "hip new face". So the establishment has defaulted to Biden as the great hope while hedging with Warren. If the Biden campaign implodes, Warren will start differentiating herself from Bernie much more starkly to appeal to moderates.
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Sep 13, 2019 18:34
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Well, I made a tweet about Biden having a lovely debate and the responses were interesting 
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Sep 13, 2019 18:38
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The Glumslinger posted:Well, I made a tweet about Biden having a lovely debate and the responses were interesting I gotta think that's somebody takin the piss.
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Sep 13, 2019 18:52
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