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well yeah, where did Cloth come from
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Sep 10, 2019 21:56
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Discendo Vox posted:The higher mind thing the pale king provides is specifically for the void vessels. I thought that was just some meta stuff addressing the player directly.
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Sep 10, 2019 22:01
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:I have nothing but a vague intuition to base this on, but I kind of feel like killing the Radiance might have negative consequences almost as bad as letting it live. It'll be interesting to see how / whether the Hornet game addresses the aftermath of Hollow Knight. I've seen a few people hoping that Silksong ends with Hornet breaking back into Hollownest and seeing the aftermath. Team Cherry produce a ton of high quality content but I'm not sure that's even remotely reasonable to expect or hope for. On the other hand, they do still have the Hollow Knight level and art assets sitting there...
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Sep 11, 2019 00:23
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SirSamVimes posted:Except there are many bugs from outside Hallownest who have free will despite never having been around during the Pale King's reign. Nah actually the comic shows that the bugs outside Hallownest are dumb beasts and incapable of language SirSamVimes posted:Also even if that were the case, why does being gifted sapience by a wizard/god mean that it's okay to take their free will away from them? EXACTLY. But we don't kill all the bugs, we just destroy Radiance. What happens then.... that's a tough question. Bleck posted:also Silksong seems to imply that bugs outside of Hallownest get along just fine thanks The comic explicitly shows that bugs outside Hallownest are all mindless beasts. There's something going on in Silksong, the eponymous Silksong, which is like some kind of music which gives those other bugs sentience the way Radiance did for Hallownest. All these things can be possible. Hallownest and the area in Silksong are both exceptions to the normal rule of how bugs are in this world. Just because Hallownest was an unusual case doesn't mean it was a unique case. Zaphod42 fucked around with this message at 00:27 on Sep 11, 2019 |
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Sep 11, 2019 00:24
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Zaphod42 posted:Nah actually the comic shows that the bugs outside Hallownest are dumb beasts and incapable of language Cornifer, Iselda and Cloth are all from outside Hallownest, as well as the fact that Elderbug refers to travellers from outside Hallownest coming seeking treasure in the ruins of the kingdom. quote:Over the years, all kinds used the well to wriggle into the ruins, wanderers, thieves, adventurers. SirSamVimes fucked around with this message at 00:34 on Sep 11, 2019 |
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Sep 11, 2019 00:27
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SirSamVimes posted:Cornifer, Iselda and Cloth are all from outside Hallownest, as well as the fact that Elderbug refers to travellers from outside Hallownest coming seeking treasure in the ruins of the kingdom. Quirrel loses his sentience and regains it when he leaves Hallownest, and loses his memory. Its possible they weren't sentient until they happened upon Hallownest and became increasingly so as they approached and stayed there.
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Sep 11, 2019 00:28
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Zaphod42 posted:Quirrel loses his sentience and regains it when he leaves Hallownest, and loses his memory. Its possible they weren't sentient until they happened upon Hallownest and became increasingly so as they approached and stayed there. Then why were Iselda and Cornifer already married when they got here? Why does Cornifer talk about his childhood? Why does Iselda reminisce about having been an adventurer herself?
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Sep 11, 2019 00:35
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SirSamVimes posted:Then why were Iselda and Cornifer already married when they got here? Why does Cornifer talk about his childhood? Why does Iselda reminisce about having been an adventurer herself?   I don't know poo poo's intentionally confusing and mysterious. Those are good points.
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Sep 11, 2019 00:36
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or maybe this is just a world with sapient bugs, it's really not that confusing edit: Even in Hallownest, there were sapient bugs before the Pale Wyrm, the moth tribe.
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Sep 11, 2019 00:38
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 I can't find a pic, maybe I'll try taking a phone pic of my own comic, but he specifically says "Maybe thought is our weakness?" like he's surprised and notes that outside creatures are specifically not sentient Again, there could be other sources of sentience beyond Hollownest or Silksong. There could be like 10 cities of sentient bugs, amidst a wasteland of otherwise dumb bugs. Each ruled by a different "god". SirSamVimes posted:it's really not that confusing I'm not saying the concept is, I'm saying Hollow Knight's story is intentionally not straightforward, like dark souls lore. SirSamVimes posted:edit: Even in Hallownest, there were sapient bugs before the Pale Wyrm, the moth tribe. Right... because of Radiance. A god.
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Sep 11, 2019 00:39
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Animal-like bugs being a thing does not mean all bugs are naturally animals.
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Sep 11, 2019 00:41
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SirSamVimes posted:Animal-like bugs being a thing does not mean all bugs are naturally animals. Of course, but it doesn't mean they aren't either. I'm just explaining why I thought what I did. Jesus, calm down. Its a videogame.
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Sep 11, 2019 00:41
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Zaphod42 posted:Those are good points. This not good enough for you SirSamVimes? OKAY YOU'RE RIGHT AND I'M TOTALLY WRONG Happy?
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Sep 11, 2019 00:43
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Okay I pulled out the drat comic, the full line is "Out here, only the simplest adapt, those that bear no burden of mind, only the drive for survival. Perhaps thought is our weakness?"
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Sep 11, 2019 00:44
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"This is the greatest civilization, if you leave here you will be reduced to nothing" is exactly the kind of thing that the people who built a place like the City of Tears would say. Also "pay six hundred dollars to rest at this park bench."
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Sep 11, 2019 00:48
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Is he specifically referring to the wilderness? There could still be plenty of other bug civilizations around. I guess we will see with the release of Silksong.
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Sep 11, 2019 00:48
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Broken Cog posted:Is he specifically referring to the wilderness? There could still be plenty of other bug civilizations around. I guess we will see with the release of Silksong. I suggested exactly that on the last page, there's probably a few cities each with their own god. The question that started this though was whether bugs in this world are innately sentient or have to be given it.
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Sep 11, 2019 00:54
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OzFactor posted:"This is the greatest civilization, if you leave here you will be reduced to nothing" is exactly the kind of thing that the people who built a place like the City of Tears would say. Also "pay six hundred dollars to rest at this park bench." This is the kind of arrogance that leads to experimenting on sleeping primordial gods and also whatever the gently caress happened in Soul Sanctum
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Sep 11, 2019 07:41
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Zaphod42 posted:Again, there could be other sources of sentience beyond Hollownest or Silksong. There could be like 10 cities of sentient bugs, amidst a wasteland of otherwise dumb bugs. Each ruled by a different "god". I'm pretty sure there are. Godseeker had a deity their life revolved around, and now desperately seeks to replace. There is a recurrent theme of "gods" that tie bugs together into a civilization and define their existence. But are the bugs naturally sentient? I don't think the game gives a straight answer. Brumm, the member of the Grimm Troupe that asks you to banish Grimm has a line that teases at the question: Yes. We are merely vessels for the flame. But... were we always empty? If you banish the Troupe, he remains in the town but loses his costume and his memory of his past existence.
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Sep 11, 2019 08:11
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Where is the HK Comic from?
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Sep 11, 2019 15:00
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Flipswitch posted:Where is the HK Comic from? A pdf was given to preorders, and a physical (miniature) is in the physical collector's box I don't think its on sale, so google is your best bet
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Sep 11, 2019 19:37
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Flipswitch posted:Where is the HK Comic from? https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0X-Ea_EAXhoTEZVeTJMdVBfcTQ/view?usp=drivesdk
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Sep 12, 2019 14:15
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Could free will be a matter of perspective? Perhaps those under the influence of the Pale King look to those who aren't just like those under the influence of the Radiance do to us. If you are under the influence of a god, everyone else looks like a mindless automaton, no matter which god. And maybe to the unaligned everyone else looks like slaves. When your priorities are so fundamentally different it's hard to see that the others are making conscious decisions at all.
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Sep 14, 2019 14:03
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One sounds like a Monarchy and one sounds like a Borg-like hivemind. Like a Monarchy still allows for things like dissidence and rebellion, the corruption doesn’t seem to have any wiggle room
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Sep 14, 2019 14:05
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Bust Rodd posted:One sounds like a Monarchy and one sounds like a Borg-like hivemind. Like a Monarchy still allows for things like dissidence and rebellion, the corruption doesn’t seem to have any wiggle room Does it, though? Did any member of Hallownest regard the Pale King with anything other than reverence and love, except for those that joined the Radiance?
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Sep 14, 2019 15:07
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The traitor guy, yes and the Soul Master.
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Sep 14, 2019 15:16
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the pale king grants free will through virtue of having eliminated the influence of the radiance - presumably the warning of not leaving the kingdom is to avoid the influence of other similar entities I think most of the stuff in-story about losing minds outside of Hallownest is supposed to be more poetic than literal
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Sep 16, 2019 04:23
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Storywise, what's going on with the Grimm Troupe? I didn't totally grasp what was going on from the in-game dialog but did really like the NKG fight
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Sep 16, 2019 04:57
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QuarkJets posted:Storywise, what's going on with the Grimm Troupe? I didn't totally grasp what was going on from the in-game dialog but did really like the NKG fight My vague recollection of The Lore combined with checking the wiki is that Grimm wants you to feed the Grimmchild flames to turn it into a suitable vessel so that after you kill him he can transfer his consciousness to the Grimmchild. Grimm himself is a puppet of the nightmare heart in the background of the Nightmare King fight. Grimm has to sacrifice himself to the heart for its continued existence. A lot of this can only be figured out by cross-referencing minor dialogue from various sources.
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Sep 16, 2019 05:27
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Also if you are quick after the first Grimm fight, you can Dream Nail Grimm and he'll name-drop the Pale King as if they know one another, which gives you some sense of how long this Grimm Troupe has been operating in one form or another.
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Sep 16, 2019 05:35
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SirSamVimes posted:And that is why even if you get the void heart, the "bad ending" will still result in Radiance breaking free. You are not a truly empty vessel. The game should determine if you were truly an empty vessel or not by whether you bowed to the Mantis Lords or not.
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Sep 16, 2019 05:42
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Pigbuster posted:The game should determine if you were truly an empty vessel or not by whether you bowed to the Mantis Lords or not. How do you bow to them, just press down? I bowed but I don’t think I pressed anything.
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Sep 16, 2019 05:53
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Bust Rodd posted:How do you bow to them, just press down? I bowed but I don’t think I pressed anything. Pressing down slightly tilts your head down and it does nothing but I do it every time anyway.
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Sep 16, 2019 06:19
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QuarkJets posted:Storywise, what's going on with the Grimm Troupe? I didn't totally grasp what was going on from the in-game dialog but did really like the NKG fight The Nightmare Heart is like another god such as Radiance or the Pale King, it grants power to its troupe but in return charges them with raiding different villages to gather energy for the heart. They roll up, kill dudes, grow Grimmchilde off the energy of the living creatures of the region, and then roll on somewhere else. Brumm points out that this cycle is never-ending, it never goes anywhere, it never accomplishes anything, it just seems to go on forever to perpetuate the existence of the Nightmare Heart. So he seeks to work with you to end the ritual, so that he might be free from it, and also to cease the plundering of other kingdoms.
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Sep 16, 2019 06:48
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Wait, where does it say the Troupe kills dudes?
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Sep 16, 2019 06:53
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SirSamVimes posted:Wait, where does it say the Troupe kills dudes? IDK that's what they make you do if you participate. I guess you could say stealing the flames from people's nightmares is totally chill and non-destructive but that's not the vibe I get from Brumm.
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Sep 16, 2019 06:59
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C-Euro posted:Also if you are quick after the first Grimm fight, you can Dream Nail Grimm and he'll name-drop the Pale King as if they know one another, which gives you some sense of how long this Grimm Troupe has been operating in one form or another. As though I have any idea how long ago anything was in this game  How long has Hallownest been in decline? How old is Hornet? When did the Radience begin to reassert herself? Can we assume a vaguely human-based timescale or do all of these insect characters only live for a week and the entire game takes place over a few days? Anyway I have no idea when anyhing happened in this game, and I don't know if 1) I'm bad at context clues 2) I missed the lone NPC who gives an annotated timeline with footnotes 3) Dark Souls-ish are just Like That or 4) #aesthetic
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Sep 16, 2019 13:15
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I mean Hallownest is contructed geographically to replicate aeons of build up and fossils and ancient beasts so I've always viewed it as like a Dark Souls style "Untold Aeons have passed since anything relevant happened"
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Sep 16, 2019 13:56
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So is Hornet, like, a million years old? Okay so Hornet is Herrah's daughter, and knew her before she became one of the Dreamers and sealed away the Hollow Knight. Which happened before Hallownest fell into decline? Are all the bugs really old or is just Hornet really old. Is Hallownest falling into ruin unrelated to the Radiance Orange Goo Plague? This is what I mean by having trouble with context clues. Idk I don't really want a calender or anything, but a general outline of when poo poo happened wouldn't go amiss. I might be over-thinking this. Or under-thinking. I'm flexible.
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Sep 16, 2019 14:20
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YggiDee posted:So is Hornet, like, a million years old? Since they were both born before The Radiance was sealed away, the knight would be almost the same age
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Sep 16, 2019 14:37
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