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Son of Thunderbeast posted:Rouxls is DR's Gaster Does entering his name at the start of the game cause ctd?
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Sep 16, 2019 17:36
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MariusLecter posted:Does entering his name at the start of the game cause ctd? Apparently it makes the game restart, so almost a ctd
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Sep 16, 2019 17:38
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I like the idea that Deltarune will be something like Contact where it will be an exploration of a player character that doesn't want to be influenced by the player, the other side of the coin to Undertale and how Frisk didn't fight the player's influence.
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Sep 16, 2019 17:40
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Son of Thunderbeast posted:Rouxls is DR's Gaster Rouxls is just Gaster in a lovely wig 
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Sep 16, 2019 21:38
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Kris tossing away the soul in the ending of DR is because the soul is one's single vulnerable point, and by throwing it in a cage and becoming soulless, they become invulnerable The idea that Chara isn't an outright monster seems to conflict with the game's portrayal of them at every turn. Even in the lab they're presented as Pretty Awful and they try to unleash hell after dying and joining souls with Asriel. Zereth posted:And of course don't forget about the part where Ralsei deflects the player's attention to what Susie is doing, then has a conversation with Kris while we're looking elsewhere. This is one of the bigger missing puzzle pieces and I really hope we get to see what that conversation was at some point.
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Sep 17, 2019 01:52
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Zamujasa posted:Kris tossing away the soul in the ending of DR is because the soul is one's single vulnerable point, and by throwing it in a cage and becoming soulless, they become invulnerable https://determinators.tumblr.com/post/159674581147/greetings-uh-so-ive-been-working-on-this
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Sep 17, 2019 03:00
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EDIT: ^^ This too.Zamujasa posted:The idea that Chara isn't an outright monster seems to conflict with the game's portrayal of them at every turn. Even in the lab they're presented as Pretty Awful and they try to unleash hell after dying and joining souls with Asriel. TheArchimage fucked around with this message at 04:33 on Sep 17, 2019 |
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Sep 17, 2019 03:24
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Players: [spends hours killing everyone in the game because they're curious what would happen] Players: Why would chara do this???
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Sep 17, 2019 04:50
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somepartsareme posted:Players: [spends hours killing everyone in the game because they're curious what would happen]  this is also why it's my pet peeve that the name 'Chara' caught on. I recognize that it's a convenient shorthand, but it also completely decouples the player's involvement and narrative impact from being the character you name and steers the conversation in the direction of "game theories" and away from what the game was trying to say
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Sep 17, 2019 05:02
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TheArchimage posted:The idea that Chara is an outright monster seems to conflict with the recurring theme of Undertale where people do bad things for reasons which make sense to them and it doesn't mean they're bad people. The only difference between Chara and the other characters is that we never get to see things from their point of view, we never get their side of the story, and we're never specifically asked to empathize with them. To be sure, in the backstory they have hosed up in a pretty serious way, but it seems premature and counter to the game's message to automatically assume they were just evil and that's the only possible explanation. the more important difference is that chara isn't really "from" undertale, in the sense that they arrived from the outside world where things are far more ambiguous and morally complex (as asriel says in the postgame, things aren't as nice up there as they are underground). it's unlikely at best that they were genocidally malicious, but they were still manipulative, resentful, and willing to place that resentment over their own safety or the happiness of themselves or their loved ones. the main reason their plan "succeeded" only to gently caress up at the "dupe asriel into inciting and killing an angry mob" part is that their motivations were something that that most monsters couldn't even grasp, let alone predict the main point of chara, outside of that whole messily confusing player-analogue thing, isn't whether or not they should be understood or forgiven, because they're long dead and gone and everyone in the story is left to deal with the consequences of their actions. it's that they were basically a foreign contaminant in the underground's happy fairytale world, and their actions poisoned the place for years to come the interpretation above also ties into why i can't stand the "narrator chara" theory, because it quickly devolved into people scraping through every single line of incidental text in the game in an effort to piece together a coherent personality for the fallen child, which in my mind misses the entire point of the character (if you can even call them that outside of the genocide route, and whatever the hell they become in that ending is far removed from whoever they used to be) Oxxidation fucked around with this message at 05:19 on Sep 17, 2019 |
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Sep 17, 2019 05:10
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somepartsareme posted:Players: [spends hours killing everyone in the game because they're curious what would happen] I feel like there's a meme that goes with this.
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Sep 17, 2019 05:11
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'Chara' is pretty universally understood by now, and much more efficient than 'the first fallen human' or whatever but if you aren't naming that weirdo after yourself why even bother. Let their crimes become your own and embrace your sins or whatever.
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Sep 17, 2019 05:12
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Your Computer posted:
This is why I try to separate the character into two versions in my head. Chara is the person who first fell and befriended Asriel and became a part of the Dreemurr family, then pulled their little scheme and died. The Fallen Child is the culmination of your actions across the game, especially your negative ones. Toby said to name them after yourself, particularly so that at the end of the game when you encounter them you can't escape the fact that they are an embodiment of your own nihilism and the path of destruction you carved through the world, and this compact collective of all your sins is crowned with your name.
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Sep 17, 2019 05:14
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Yeah, the name you choose at the beginning of the game basically means different things depending on which route you play. In pacifist it's the name of Asriel's sibling and adopted child of the Dreemurs. While in genocide that's still the case, it gets way more meta because the name also represents you. The child that confronts you at the end isn't Asriel's sibling but a personification of the reasons why you would play that route and go through all the trouble of murdering everyone. These two entities are pretty distinct but they share the same name and it's really confused discussion on them, but there's not much that can be done about that now.
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Sep 17, 2019 05:24
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I always thought that it was a desire of Chara (for lack of a better name) to free his adopted family and people, alongside his own desire to, well, kill all humans. Why not both? It is up to the player to see which part of him gets more play: either, if Frisk is merciful, Chara lends his power to Frisk to save his people and the soul of his brother, or Frisk feeds Chara death and destruction and the bitter child that wants to destroy everything comes out.
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Sep 17, 2019 05:56
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nine-gear crow posted:Toby said to name them after yourself, i think that's a bit of a misquote
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Sep 17, 2019 06:50
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nine-gear crow posted:Toby said to name them after yourself, particularly so that at the end of the game when you encounter them you can't escape the fact that they are an embodiment of your own nihilism and the path of destruction you carved through the world, and this compact collective of all your sins is crowned with your name. Oxxidation posted:the main point of chara, outside of that whole messily confusing player-analogue thing, isn't whether or not they should be understood or forgiven, because they're long dead and gone and everyone in the story is left to deal with the consequences of their actions. it's that they were basically a foreign contaminant in the underground's happy fairytale world, and their actions poisoned the place for years to come
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Sep 17, 2019 07:22
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I mean it's hard to be empathetic towards the Fallen Child because they're more a piece of history or background element than an actual character. E: Not to say that one can't feel sympathy or try and form an actual character for them out of the brief snippets of information we get but I wouldn't say that's the point. SyntheticPolygon fucked around with this message at 07:32 on Sep 17, 2019 |
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Sep 17, 2019 07:30
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MonsieurChoc posted:https://determinators.tumblr.com/post/159674581147/greetings-uh-so-ive-been-working-on-this That's a great write-up.
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Sep 17, 2019 10:56
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It’s also worth noting that Chara, or the original Fallen Child, or Asriel’s sibling/best friend if you prefer. Succeeded in killing exactly one person their plan intended to kill, themselves, and in fact suicide was their first step and implied to be the reason they climbed Mt Ebott in the first place. Add in the facts that they were treated as a future saviour, able to free monsters from the underground some day and their motivations become a lot muddier. Especially, when at the end Asriel was more determined to not kill, than their sibling was too kill.
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Sep 17, 2019 11:30
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quote:it's that they were basically a foreign contaminant in the underground's happy fairytale world, and their actions poisoned the place for years to come I really don't see that as being the point at all. I see the ultimate point of Chara's involvement as that of how them being present helped expose the truth of the monsters' predicament - the nature of their genocide at the hands of the humans. The immediate effect of all that transpired was bad, for sure, but the subtext of the story of Asriel and Chara is the sense that monsters deserve self respect, that they should not meekly accept their imprisonment. The emotional arc of the monsters journey is not a return to a state of grace, to expunge 'the poison'. It's to recognise humans as, well, people, to actually get to the point where the fact that "Chara hated humans" can be understood empathically. For you, throughout the pacifist route, you see monsters with individual desires - to be a comedian, to be a singer, to better themselves, to make friends, to be a popular nutritionist, and the goal is to help them accomplish that and give them their yellow text in the end credits. The entire pacifist journey is about that. So trying to understand what Chara really wanted, to read the subtext in undertale, that follows very naturally. Fangz fucked around with this message at 11:50 on Sep 17, 2019 |
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Sep 17, 2019 11:32
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Wait I thought that Frisk was the one implied to have climbed Mt Ebott because of suicide
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Sep 17, 2019 18:54
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Feel like that's an implied motive for anyone who chooses to visit the mountain of no return.
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Sep 17, 2019 18:56
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Squiddycat posted:Wait I thought that Frisk was the one implied to have climbed Mt Ebott because of suicide Probably him too. It's probably safe to assume that was true of all the kids who climbed the mountain. MonsieurChoc posted:https://determinators.tumblr.com/post/159674581147/greetings-uh-so-ive-been-working-on-this It also helped recontextualize the whole "asgore murdering children and everyone just kinda lets it go" thing. I hadn't really considered that every other child that went down there also had the power to save and reset, and that their deaths implied a loss of their will to continue. I'm still processing that in the back of my head and I still probably won't land too far from "UT Asgore should absolutely face justice" but it does make things at least a little different.
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Sep 17, 2019 19:00
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Squiddycat posted:Wait I thought that Frisk was the one implied to have climbed Mt Ebott because of suicide I don’t believe anything is ever said about Frisk’s past. But Asriel specifically states that Chara didn’t climb the mountain for “a very happy reason”. Which coupled with their apparent hatred for humanity leads one to assume they weren’t treated all that well in their home village and came to Mt. Ebott to escape and/or kill themselves. Larryb fucked around with this message at 19:05 on Sep 17, 2019 |
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Sep 17, 2019 19:00
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Ebott backwards is ttobE. ttob-E. Toby. Coincidence?
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Sep 17, 2019 19:01
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Larryb posted:I don’t believe anything is ever said about Frisk’s past.
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Sep 17, 2019 19:23
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It's also assumed that they're probably an orphan or something similar too, especially when you can just decide to have Toriel look after them after the True Pacifist ending.
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Sep 17, 2019 19:28
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Accordion Man posted:It's also assumed that they're probably an orphan or something similar too, especially when you can just decide to have Toriel look after them after the True Pacifist ending.
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Sep 17, 2019 19:41
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Accordion Man posted:It's also assumed that they're probably an orphan or something similar too, especially when you can just decide to have Toriel look after them after the True Pacifist ending. I think reading them as either an orphan or a child with abusive parents makes a lot of sense, yeah. On the other hand, I think the absence of any actual suggestion of why Frisk climbed the mountain is probably intentional. Adventurous kids love going where they aren't supposed to and climbing fences with NO TRESPASSING signs. Like I don't think not seeing Frisk as suicidal/victimized/both makes you oblivious or dumb or whatever.
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Sep 17, 2019 19:43
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Their friends might have just triple-dog-dared them to climb the mountain to prove they aren't a coward. Frisk's motivations are pretty open to interpretation.
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Sep 17, 2019 19:46
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Yeah, it’s also entirely possible that some of the kids decided to just climb the mountain for the thrill of it and wound up falling in by accident (also even the game’s opening, or at least the extended version later, shows Chara clearly trip on something before falling down so it’s possible even that was unintentional).
Larryb fucked around with this message at 19:48 on Sep 17, 2019 |
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Sep 17, 2019 19:46
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It's also worth noting that young children sometimes feel misunderstood, neglected, or abused when the reality is significantly less sinister than what's going on in their mind. Frisk could've run away from home because they were grounded or their parents had a new baby or something. EDIT: Changed wording a little so as not to imply kids who claim abuse are mostly lying or something, my point is just that children aren't always (usually?) the best at making rational decisions or adjudicating what's fair/warranted Baku fucked around with this message at 19:56 on Sep 17, 2019 |
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Sep 17, 2019 19:48
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Your Computer posted:I was on an Undertale playthrough binge for a while and watched a lot of playthroughs and one thing that surprised me was how often people didn't assume this. A lot of people went through the game with the mission to "go home" and thought it was weird that you could stay with Toriel.
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Sep 17, 2019 20:01
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Yeah, I always saw Frisk's motivations as being deliberately ambiguous. I mean, Asriel posted:Why would you ever climb a mountain like that? is about as close to "there's no canon explanation, think what you want" as you can get without breaking the fourth wall.
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Sep 17, 2019 20:02
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it feels cruel having both papyrus and alphys be so not into frisk. one or the other would have been fine but both sheesh.
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Sep 17, 2019 20:09
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Some people linked the abandoned quiche with Frisk's circumstances, as well as the dialogue for the used bandage they start with.
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Sep 17, 2019 20:24
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Considering at the start of the game you were actually naming the first Fallen Human rather than the actual protagonist (even if you didn’t actually learn that until the very end) I’m curious if the name you entered at the beginning of Deltarune will also come into play at some point later on.
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Sep 17, 2019 20:29
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Larryb posted:Considering at the start of the game you were actually naming the first Fallen Human rather than the actual protagonist (even if you didn’t actually learn that until the very end) I’m curious if the name you entered at the beginning of Deltarune will also come into play at some point later on. considering how the Darkners appear to be born from the lost and forgotten things of the Light World and the Spade King had gone mad with resentment over that fact after his contact with the Knight, my guess is that the abandoned vessel we created at the start screen will turn out to be the Knight itself, and the name we gave it will be the one used when it finally appears in-game bonus conspiracy - our character creation process was intentionally cut short by the mysterious "other" so that they'd be able to repurpose the vessel for that exact reason
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Sep 17, 2019 20:41
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i hope they do that but you never actually see them out of armor so your choices don't matter
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Sep 17, 2019 20:48
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