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Saoshyant posted:Pretty sure Deadly Genesis didn't feature on Grand Design, as such it's non-canon. And good riddance. How else do you get Vulcan in there? He's on the cover of Uncanny 1.
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Sep 14, 2019 22:10
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Skwirl posted:How else do you get Vulcan in there? He's on the cover of Uncanny 1. Sinister-made embryo from Scott's dad and mom. It's the kid of the thing Sinister would do anyway.
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Sep 14, 2019 22:18
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Saoshyant posted:Pretty sure Deadly Genesis didn't feature on Grand Design, as such it's non-canon. And good riddance. Wait. Did you not read the end of GD? Because the ending makes it pretty clear that the whole thing was an alt universe that segues into the 616. It literally ends by saying "CONTINUES IN UNCANNY X-MEN 143" or something like that (I'm too lazy to get my copy).
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Sep 14, 2019 22:28
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Rick posted:For all the hate of Deadly Genesis most people accept its characterizations of Xavier even thought they're garbage and based on things not any more valid than Nazi Captain America so you might as well read it so you know why Xavier is a murderer pedophile slavemaster instead of just a jerk. I mean to be fair "murderer" "Pedophile" and "slavemaster" were all things Charles Xavier was before that. Onslaught in particular specifically canonized him having the hots for his literal teenage student.
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Sep 14, 2019 22:41
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ImpAtom posted:I mean to be fair "murderer" "Pedophile" and "slavemaster" were all things Charles Xavier was before that. Onslaught in particular specifically canonized him having the hots for his literal teenage student. That was in the original Uncanny run.
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Sep 14, 2019 23:04
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Skwirl posted:That was in the original Uncanny run. Yeah that is my point. I don’t think a bunch of stuff written in the 60s without a single thought about the ethics of superpowers or the idea that these would be characters that survived for 50 years should have been dredged up to be added to permanent parts of characters who had been more thoughtfully written for 30+ years. I used to say “that would be like dredging up the racist Captain America comics” but they decided to do that too.
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Sep 14, 2019 23:22
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Saoshyant posted:Sinister-made embryo from Scott's dad and mom. It's the kid of the thing Sinister would do anyway. Oh man, what if Moira was working with Sinister to create Vulcan? One more Omega level mutant to tip the scales.
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Sep 15, 2019 01:04
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I don't think Sinister would create someone that lame.
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Sep 15, 2019 08:29
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Skwirl posted:That was in the original Uncanny run. I know, I meant that Onslaught made that not just a one-off thing from the early days. Rick posted:Yeah that is my point. I don’t think a bunch of stuff written in the 60s without a single thought about the ethics of superpowers or the idea that these would be characters that survived for 50 years should have been dredged up to be added to permanent parts of characters who had been more thoughtfully written for 30+ years. I used to say “that would be like dredging up the racist Captain America comics” but they decided to do that too. The thing is that Professor X having genuinely uncomfortable/hosed up relationships is not just a one-off thing like Hank Pym's slap. It is an ongoing part of his character and has been for a long time in both unrecognized and very recognized ways. They keep adding more stuff on but short of actively nullifying a lot of what Professor X has done that is his character. He is someone with good intentions and a lot of hosed up ways of going about this intentions. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 08:56 on Sep 15, 2019 |
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Sep 15, 2019 08:53
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Just like "Reed Richards learns to be a good dad." or "Bruce Banner learns to control his anger" , "Perfect Saint Professor X is secretly a scumbag" is one of those symptoms of a shared universe. Every writer want to do it, but when they all get to have their turn he ends up being a douche more often than a good person. It kinda reaches the point where you have to ask yourself "Why would such a horrible selfish person care about peaceful coexistence?"
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Sep 16, 2019 10:21
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Carey's X-Men Legacy did a pretty good Xavier redemption arc for Deadly Genesis. That should have more or less closed the book on it, in my view. I like Xavier and, like many others, I definitely feel like the, "oh no, Xavier kept an important secret and manipulated people!" plot point is done to death.
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Sep 16, 2019 10:25
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I feel like there's a point where even a very valid characterization for a character can turn out to be something...not good for the character on the larger scheme. Batman being a paranoid rear end in a top hat, for instance, is a legit direction for the character that a lot of writers have mined from. But ultimately, it should be something he's trying to work past. We don't want to see Batman being paranoid, we want to see him overcoming this deeply-entrenched flaw. However central the trait might be to this character, it should not overwhelm him to the point that his other central traits -- his heroism and nobel heart -- have become lessened for it. Same with Xavier. No matter how flawed of a person he might be, I think the fact that he's still a good person needs to be central to the character and we have to be careful with how far we venture from those shores. Moreover, I just have a general strong dislike for stories whose entire purpose seems to be to dig through characters' dirty laundries to find the sleaziest, most scandalous things about their lives. Again, there's such a thing as a flawed character, but you have to be careful of running into the Matt Rosenberg problem where you seem to be intimately aware of all the sordid faults of the X-Men, but your way of dealing with these character issues is to just magnify them instead of alleviating them.
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Sep 16, 2019 14:22
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ImpAtom posted:The thing is that Professor X having genuinely uncomfortable/hosed up relationships is not just a one-off thing like Hank Pym's slap. Which of these appeared in comics between the publishing of Giant Sized and Deadly Genesis? I know they've piled a lot of stuff on since then, with First Class, Illuminati and Wolverine Origins and such but none of this was going on in page. As far as I know erasing Magneto's mind was the big sin, and hosed up but hardly came out of nowhere. It definitely did lead to Onslaught but Onslaught was(/is?) its own being.
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Sep 16, 2019 18:13
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I think the root of this really was Onslaught. In the run-up to that storyline (and as part of the continuing "Who is the X-Traitor mentioned in Bishop's future?") thing, Mark Waid and others started referencing some of the dubious Silver Age Era things that Xavier did (his unrequited love for Jean, some morally dubious "I'll just mindwipe everyone so we can wrap up this story" moments) to imply that maybe Xavier isn't such a heroic fellow. Of course once the Onslaught story kicked off properly it was made clear that Onslaught was some sort of weird mix of Xavier and Magneto's brainwaves and no, Xavier is not actually a traitor or a long-scheming villain, but they already opened the door to making Things That Writers in 1964 Didn't Think Were Unheroic an official part of the modern Xavier character makeup. There was a solid 20-25 years that (to my knowledge) no one acknowledged in comics Xavier's silver age foibles anymore than they spent a lot of time harping on how chauvinist the FF were towards Susan sometimes, how Peter would have teenage rage fits that made him sound like a school shooter in some early Lee/Ditko Spider-Man, how manipulative and hosed up (even by superhero standards) some of the gaslighting secret identity ploys Tony Stark, Matt Murdock, and others would pull on their closest friends, etc. By surfacing that stuff in modern comics, other writers/editors/fans sort of go "this is on the table, let's turn it into a core character trait!" Xavier spent several years post-Onslaught kind of out of the spotlight. First he was imprisoned by the government/Bastion, then he got freed by the Brotherhood and agreed to try to rehab them (mostly off-panel) to fight the now-sentient-and-evil Cerebro, then he went off into space to mentor some Skrull mutants, and from what I remember/can find with some light research, didn't really hook back up with the "main" X-Men team/storylines until right before Morrison took over in 2001; he came back when Moira died, then almost immediately was captured and crucified by Magneto in the last story to set the stage for Morrison's run. Immediately after Morrison's run came Joss Whedon's Astonishing X-Men, which had the whole "the Danger Room was a sentient AI that Xavier enslaved/brainwashed for the greater good" as its first storyline, which really officially kicked off the current era of retconning new dubious things into Xavier's past/character. Or maybe I'm forgetting something between Onslaught and Astonishing X-Men? Edge & Christian fucked around with this message at 18:55 on Sep 16, 2019 |
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Sep 16, 2019 18:51
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Listen, we can debate all week about whether retcons and specific portrayals of Xavier have ruined his character and/or made him a villain, or if he's a tragic man who makes tough choices to save his species. But I think we can all agree that Beast is a terrible person who does terrible things and probably should be in jail forever.
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Sep 16, 2019 19:13
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In my mind I've pushed Danger to happening after Deadly Genesis because I didn't read it until a long time after it was out (I don't think I ever finished Whedon's run, actually) so I missed that one. Android Blues posted:Carey's X-Men Legacy did a pretty good Xavier redemption arc for Deadly Genesis. That should have more or less closed the book on it, in my view. I like Xavier and, like many others, I definitely feel like the, "oh no, Xavier kept an important secret and manipulated people!" plot point is done to death. I thought Legacy was really good, and I was happy that we got a seemingly-content and ready to move on from the X-men Xavier at the start of Schism. The fact that they mostly had the restraint to leave him out of that was actually impressive. Schism is the recent era that I thought was going to suck the most that actually ended up being mostly good (other than the Land art here and there) danbanana posted:
Yeah that's easy. Rick fucked around with this message at 19:36 on Sep 16, 2019 |
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Sep 16, 2019 19:30
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danbanana posted:But I think we can all agree that Beast is a terrible person who does terrible things and probably should be in jail forever. Too bad all mutants have diplomatic immunity now.
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Sep 16, 2019 19:44
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Goldballs is confirmed for the next issue.
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Sep 17, 2019 04:24
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Rick posted:Which of these appeared in comics between the publishing of Giant Sized and Deadly Genesis? I know they've piled a lot of stuff on since then, with First Class, Illuminati and Wolverine Origins and such but none of this was going on in page. Claremont plays with this a little bit. Like after Jean dies, Xavier goes through some soul searching about how he partitioned Jean's mind to keep her from accessing the Phoenix powers, and how maybe if he had been more transparent, told her that she had additional power that he had locked away, and worked with her to gradually learn control she wouldn't have wound up where she did. And then later on there's stuff when like, Storm is upset about losing her powers or Rogue is upset about having hers, and he thinks to himself "gee, I could mindwipe them so they weren't upset... but like I learned with Jean, it's better that they work through this on their own." It's a lot more subtle than the modern revisionist take, but the thread is still there.
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Sep 17, 2019 04:45
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Hickman did a lot of work making the FF functional again, instead of Mr Fantastic going off and building Super Prison Blacksites for the “greater good” Iron Man is all over the loving place, but I like the stories where he’s reformed and trying to act with more self-control. Ironheart is a good influence on him. I haven’t read any Namor in about 5 years, idk what he’s like these days.
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Sep 17, 2019 05:40
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Billzasilver posted:Hickman did a lot of work making the FF functional again, instead of Mr Fantastic going off and building Super Prison Blacksites for the “greater good” oh... oh honey, I have some bad news... (I'm actually enjoying Invaders, but hard to see Namor coming back from this anytime soon)
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Sep 17, 2019 06:03
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He has a team of nautical villains in Avengers.
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Sep 17, 2019 07:24
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Soonmot posted:oh... oh honey, I have some bad news...
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Sep 17, 2019 08:19
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Xavier’s whole relationship with Gabriel is super hosed up as she was his patient and then decided to date her.
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Sep 17, 2019 09:02
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ga-who?
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Sep 17, 2019 11:44
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Gabrielle Haller, Legion's mom.
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Sep 17, 2019 12:18
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Doctor Spaceman posted:Goldballs is confirmed for the next issue. spoilers are out fyi, though I'll refrain from posting anything
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Sep 17, 2019 15:52
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Barry Convex posted:spoilers are out fyi, though I'll refrain from posting anything Yeah, saw some discussion Reddit and stopped reading after I saw that bit.
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Sep 17, 2019 16:23
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With the way writers keep going back to that tired old well, the bigger twist these days would probably be a story where Xavier is actually a pretty good and moral person.danbanana posted:But I think we can all agree that Beast is a terrible person who does terrible things and probably should be in jail forever. It's a shame because the last story I can remember enjoying Beast in was the S.W.O.R.D. miniseries where he was back to clowning around. Which writer started the trend of Beast being a self-righteous rear end in a top hat? Was it Morrison where Beast pretended he's gay to the entire world?
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Sep 17, 2019 18:08
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It was Morrison. During the aftermath of the riot at Xavier's if I recall correctly.
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Sep 17, 2019 18:41
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amigolupus posted:Was it Morrison where Beast pretended he's gay to the entire world? Oh God I forgot about that... Uggghhhh. Hickman used him as a replacement for Xavier in the Illuminati which was both nonsensical and very true to his character since... yeah, probably Morrison.
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Sep 17, 2019 18:43
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the Uncanny Eggsmen
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Sep 18, 2019 11:59
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amigolupus posted:With the way writers keep going back to that tired old well, the bigger twist these days would probably be a story where Xavier is actually a pretty good and moral person. I started rewatching the Animated Series with my kid recently. I was like “whoa how come he’s so charming and affable. This isn’t the Henry McCoy I know (a total rear end in a top hat).”
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Sep 18, 2019 12:13
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Hot drat I’m loving everything I’m seeing on HoX #5. How Hickman is using the mutants, how he’s setting up Krakoa and the resurrection. That last loving page, man.. I mean seriously here we have the oldest loving trick in comic books no one really dies, and turned into an a almost mundane effortless process by 5 mutants that in conjunction with Xavier can now bring anyone back. It’s loving ambitious and I love it. Miscellaneous question: Now I need to go back to see if Logan had his adamantium claws for the mission or if this is his first resurrection and is now back to bone claws? Happy Noodle Boy fucked around with this message at 12:22 on Sep 18, 2019 |
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Sep 18, 2019 12:17
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Great issue, but...resurrection seems like an inappropriate word. Xavier is restoring their minds to clone bodies based on a weekly backup he keeps of all mutants. It's the teleporter problem - Scott and Jean and Logan and Kurt et al did actually die, they're still dead, and they didn't come back. There are just perfect copies of them from a week ago hanging out on Krakoa now, being venerated for a sacrifice they never made. The issue kind of skirts that. Seems like something that ought to be addressed.
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Sep 18, 2019 13:20
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No surprises in this issue, but I did like how the process of resurrection was a little more complicated than Krakoa just making bodies and Xavier dropping their psyche in them. But hot drat this cult-like atmosphere is terrifying and Apocalypse being in agreement with everything they're doing is like the second biggest red flag possible next to working with Sinister.
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Sep 18, 2019 13:23
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At least it puts the whole Maker thing to rest goddamn. Also Xavier needs to update his backup policy. Weekly backups? Come on!
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Sep 18, 2019 13:47
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Nothing surprising here, but it's very elegant in it's implementation. I'm really into this new status quo. What happens if Goldballs dies?
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Sep 18, 2019 14:06
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So what I'm getting here is that that Hickman must've heard of Nier Automata and now the X-Men are pretty much YoRHa. 
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Sep 18, 2019 14:07
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Android Blues posted:Great issue, but...resurrection seems like an inappropriate word. Xavier is restoring their minds to clone bodies based on a weekly backup he keeps of all mutants. It's the teleporter problem - Scott and Jean and Logan and Kurt et al did actually die, they're still dead, and they didn't come back. There are just perfect copies of them from a week ago hanging out on Krakoa now, being venerated for a sacrifice they never made.
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Sep 18, 2019 14:21
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