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Crusader posted:seriously though, how the gently caress does Dirty Deeds Done Dirt Cheap work. Like a week ago, I was thinking "Man, if some people had that big of a problem with the minor inconsistencies of what King Crimson could do, how are they going to react to the D4C chapters?"  Granted, we already saw how it mainly works after Lucy stabbed Valentine, so I think it's less that there wasn't a solid concept of how it worked beforehand and more like we're supposed to be as confused as the people experiencing suddenly being thrown into the Berenstein Universe.
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Sep 17, 2019 03:41
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dancingbears posted:EDIT: Yeah, let's hold off until I can talk about this without spoilers So y'all remember Sandman/Soundman? Now that we know about D4C, here's an idea I've heard and quite like: Sandman and Soundman are two different characters, from different universes, and Valentine swapped them around. Remember back when Diego got introduced to his new partner?  Appearing suddenly from beneath a seemingly empty door, huh? I'm not saying Sandman couldn't do that, yeah. But watching this encounter is President Valentine, with his D4C, which, like, appearing suddenly from behind something that couldn't possibly be concealing you, and being suddenly and subtly different, is entirely within D4C's ability. I'm doubtful Araki intended for this, but with that theory, that Valentine swapped Sandman out for a more agreeable version in Soundman, Sandman works consistently. His tribe calls him Sandman in the beginning, and then later, when he claims that, no, his name is actually Soundman among his tribe, that works, they're just describing their slightly different lived experiences. Same with the quick hints of Sandman's Stand (a glimpse of an arm and a hint of sand powers) not matching In A Silent Way; they're different people, and thus have different Stands. This would also mean that Sandman probably survives, trapped in another dimension. (or maybe an AU Johnny and Gyro killed him) (fake edit: and i realize that any theories about alternate dimensions are really unsatisfying, but come on, it's literally d4c's power) dancingbears fucked around with this message at 05:54 on Sep 17, 2019 |
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Sep 17, 2019 05:48
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So how do people feel about Mormonism being canon in the SBR verse.
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Sep 17, 2019 06:19
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i kind of really hate a lot of the stuff surrounding lucy steel but to some really stupid degree i can maybe assume that araki was possibly going for some virgin mary analog given all the overt themes happening which i guess would maybe also explain why lucy is 14 because mary was thought to be around 14 or so at the time i still hate it, even if that is what he might have been going for, and wish that all the weird, creepy poo poo involving her wasn't a thing. and like i said super early on in a spoiler there's a reason why i don't have an issue with the whole stephen steel and her situation so i guess this segment clears that up anyways yeah the like overall 1% of part 7 that i really despise is pretty much over, all of it involving lucy, and the ending sequence in part 7 is bar-none my favorite in the entire series so i guess look forward to finding out why? it's pretty cool. there's a reason why i call part 7 my favorite part despite me bringing up multiple times how i hate a certain aspect of the story.
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Sep 17, 2019 06:44
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anyways everyone rise for the anthem of the united states of valentine https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UIE4UjBtx-o
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Sep 17, 2019 06:46
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Crusader posted:seriously though, how the gently caress does Dirty Deeds Done Dirt Cheap work. Accordion Man fucked around with this message at 07:15 on Sep 17, 2019 |
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Sep 17, 2019 07:11
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Hello this theory rules, good job. Funky Valentine posted:So how do people feel about Mormonism being canon in the SBR verse. I like that the implication that the corpse parts are only in one universe means that either 1) Jesus died for our sins, but only in one universe. 2) Jesus died in every universe but then only came to America in one universe. Johnny Joestar posted:i kind of really hate a lot of the stuff surrounding lucy steel but to some really stupid degree i can maybe assume that araki was possibly going for some virgin mary analog given all the overt themes happening which i guess would maybe also explain why lucy is 14 because mary was thought to be around 14 or so at the time If nothing else, the President of the United States sexually assaulting a 14-year-old is weirdly prophetic. 
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Sep 17, 2019 13:22
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I love how DI-S-CO's only line is saying his Stand's name.
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Sep 17, 2019 15:18
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So why did Valentine need to guide Lucy to the ship with Jesus eye telepathy instead of just having his men take her there?
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Sep 17, 2019 16:24
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part of the idea was so that no one would know where she went
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Sep 17, 2019 16:34
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dancingbears posted:So y'all remember Sandman/Soundman? Now that we know about D4C, here's an idea I've heard and quite like: Hell I believe that now
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Sep 17, 2019 16:48
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MAKE HER DOCILE LIKE A WINTER CATFISH
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Sep 17, 2019 17:12
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Johnny Joestar posted:part of the idea was so that no one would know where she went Kinda dumb of him to get his own guys killed for that when he could have just taken her there through a different reality and nobody would be any wiser in this one. dancingbears posted:Sandman/Soundman theory I consider this canon from now on.
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Sep 17, 2019 20:35
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Dragonwagon posted:Kinda dumb of him to get his own guys killed for that valentine doesn't give a gently caress about a couple of dudes, he's assembling the corpse of jesus christ so he can run the world
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Sep 17, 2019 21:32
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Waffleman_ posted:MAKE HER DOCILE
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Sep 17, 2019 23:13
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Waffleman_ posted:MAKE HER DOCILE Other than Gyro's song and weird jokes this is probably the one thing I want to see anime-only fans react to the most
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Sep 17, 2019 23:24
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Johnny Joestar posted:valentine doesn't give a gently caress about a couple of dudes, he's assembling the corpse of jesus christ so he can run the world
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Sep 18, 2019 00:29
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Accordion Man posted:Yeah, its pretty clear Valentine is only in it for himself, he just talks a big game. Really makes me wonder where the characterization of Valentine being a guy who does things for the greater good, no matter the cost, comes from. He's been nothing but skeevy and scheming up until this point. The man wants to start a hereditary dictatorship and take over the world by showing the public that he has Jesus Christ's body, implying that with the second coming of Christ, he was chosen personally. Is it because he got hotter??
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Sep 18, 2019 00:53
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BaDandy posted:Really makes me wonder where the characterization of Valentine being a guy who does things for the greater good, no matter the cost, comes from. He's been nothing but skeevy and scheming up until this point. The man wants to start a hereditary dictatorship and take over the world by showing the public that he has Jesus Christ's body, implying that with the second coming of Christ, he was chosen personally. It's probably because he's the first main villain to be a public figure in an office that would command a level of automatic respect from most Americans. He also manages to not check off any of the boxes that the previous main villains did: Dio, Super vampire, DIO, serial killer, schizophrenic mafioso, or someone fulfilling the will of DIO. Everything you said is true and he's pretty similar to at least a few of the other villains but he's different enough that the audience is willing give him more of a pass. And he got hotter. zetamind2000 fucked around with this message at 01:36 on Sep 18, 2019 |
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Sep 18, 2019 01:11
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some people regularly say 'valentine did nothing wrong' which is infamously used to more commonly say 'hitler did nothing wrong' so that should give you an idea of how stupid those particular people are
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Sep 18, 2019 01:16
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BaDandy posted:Really makes me wonder where the characterization of Valentine being a guy who does things for the greater good, no matter the cost, comes from. He's been nothing but skeevy and scheming up until this point. The man wants to start a hereditary dictatorship and take over the world by showing the public that he has Jesus Christ's body, implying that with the second coming of Christ, he was chosen personally. A lot of people tend to totally take what villains say at face value, and Valentine is pretty far up his own rear end on how righteously patriotic he is.
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Sep 18, 2019 01:32
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Also us Americans are pretty much indoctrinated from birth to think fascistic levels of patriotism is good and normal.
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Sep 18, 2019 01:39
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Accordion Man posted:Also us Americans are pretty much indoctrinated from birth to think fascistic levels of patriotism is good and normal. Considering the age most of the people saying that grew up, their formative years were probably also during the really heightened post-9/11 jingoism.
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Sep 18, 2019 01:43
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Prior to reading this, I thought Valentine merely had a narcissistic version of patriotism. Turns out he's always been a scumbag and the patriotism is just a thin veneer of justification for taking over the world.
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Sep 18, 2019 01:47
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overmind2000 posted:It's probably because he's the first main villain to be a public figure in an office that would command a level of automatic respect from most Americans. He also manages to not check off any of the boxes that the previous main villains did: Dio, Super vampire, DIO, serial killer, schizophrenic mafioso, or someone fulfilling the will of DIO. Everything you said is true and he's pretty similar to at least a few of the other villains but he's different enough that the audience is willing give him more of a pass. I, for one, will never respect the President.  It does kind of remind me of what Araki was talking about the concept of DIO, like a villain who exerts a lot of social control, which isolates the protagonists from getting help from anyone else. The President of the United States (of Valentine) would be a logical reworking of that. Johnny Joestar posted:some people regularly say 'valentine did nothing wrong' which is infamously used to more commonly say 'hitler did nothing wrong' so that should give you an idea of how stupid those particular people are I can never tell if Those JoJo Fans are actually serious because people said that all the time for Dio and that was supposed to be a joke. Then again, "ironically fascist" is still fascist, so you know. Zerilan posted:A lot of people tend to totally take what villains say at face value, and Valentine is pretty far up his own rear end on how righteously patriotic he is. I guess it's a sign of good writing if so many people actually take him seriously.
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Sep 18, 2019 01:49
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overmind2000 posted:Other than Gyro's song and weird jokes this is probably the one thing I want to see anime-only fans react to the most The first time I read it, I thought the insistent terminology was just him being weird but then I caught that it seems to have been Valentine gave them the order in a flowery way and the guy is ALSO weird but just following orders to the letter.
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Sep 18, 2019 02:07
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Aw man, Joseph only drew a map? Well there goes that funny image. Josephs: Never as good as another Jo. Valentine's back scars loving slay me. I'm glad Lucy got to murder him at least the one time. This guy really doesn't care about anyone but himself. She's not wrong to consider him the devil. Funky Valentine posted:So how do people feel about Mormonism being canon in the SBR verse. Except for the well known premise of their stories (Jesus came to America in ancient times), the stories are almost polar opposites. A lot of Mormonism is transparent (to me anyway) justification for why genocidal settler colonialism is cool and good actually. SBR is about how Jesus is the best Stand user ever and was friends with all the people of the world including the Natives who missed him after he died. They're just...not the same thing at all.
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Sep 18, 2019 02:55
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Joseph Smith may have introduced his own biases into the story. Oh, by the way. The reckoned true name of Jesus is Joshua bar Joseph. He a Jojo.
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Sep 18, 2019 03:01
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paragon1 posted:Except for the well known premise of their stories (Jesus came to America in ancient times), the stories are almost polar opposites. A lot of Mormonism is transparent (to me anyway) justification for why genocidal settler colonialism is cool and good actually. SBR is about how Jesus is the best Stand user ever and was friends with all the people of the world including the Natives who missed him after he died. This is a really good point because Araki's interpretation is just really wholesome and nice. Like you'd think it'd be a little weird that he's clearly drawing a parallel from Jesus to the other Joestars, who are also known for world travel and making everywhere they go a better place, but Jesus being a JoJo rules, actually. I like how America the place is shown as this almost mystical fairy tale land of potential where anything can happen. Like of COURSE Jesus laid himself to rest here, changing the very landscape itself and creating a Devil's Palm, or a mythical tree that grants wishes.
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Sep 18, 2019 04:12
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Valentine is fascinating because in his mind, Operation TAKE THE NAPKIN is the most correct and unclouded path to ensure the permanent happiness of America. This man spent his teens fighting the Civil War and got tortured and nearly died in the desert in the process. Nothing bad will ever happen to America, ever again. And it will be him who achieves it, he who has suffered so much for his country. drat the consequences, the bodies he steps on, and the rest of the world. He can't comprehend how absolutely insane "become king of the world with the power of Jesus's corpse" is.
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Sep 18, 2019 04:58
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WHOA BOY I HAVE SOME SERIOUS THOUGHTS ABOUT WHATS HAPPENING TO THE LADY whoaaaaaaaa boy im not done reading thru yet but whoaaaaaaaaa boy
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Sep 18, 2019 08:17
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I'm pretty sure that Valentine actually believes his own grift. His actions are those of a man who clearly wants to obtain power for himself and become the lifelong dictator of the United States, and the way he justifies himself with nationalist rhetoric is at odds with that. It's likely that he's fooled everyone, including himself, into believing that the best and only way for the United States to prosper is to have him at the helm, and this self-righteous belief has propelled him forward. Let's not forget that he's the President of the United States of America, and elections aren't won by chance.
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Sep 18, 2019 10:11
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Araki seems fond of trapping villians in eternal hells that they can't escape.
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Sep 18, 2019 14:12
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as much of a weird surreal horror movie as Lucy's story has been, that sort of how the virgin mary's tale is when you remove the mythologizing.Electric Phantasm posted:Araki seems fond of trapping villians in eternal hells that they can't escape. Magenta Magenta didn't really deserve that.
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Sep 18, 2019 14:45
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The moral of the story is never trust a Dio to save you.
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Sep 18, 2019 15:12
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MachuPikacchu posted:Let's not forget that he's the President of the United States of America, and elections aren't won by chance. The United States of Valentine, you mean.
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Sep 18, 2019 16:41
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Dragonwagon posted:The United States of Valentine, you mean. Previously, it was known as the United States of Cleveland.
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Sep 18, 2019 18:10
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Funky Valentine posted:Valentine is fascinating because in his mind, Operation TAKE THE NAPKIN is the most correct and unclouded path to ensure the permanent happiness of America. This man spent his teens fighting the Civil War and got tortured and nearly died in the desert in the process. Nothing bad will ever happen to America, ever again. And it will be him who achieves it, he who has suffered so much for his country. drat the consequences, the bodies he steps on, and the rest of the world. I think this is where some people would get tripped up by Valentine because you're right. His motivations are really interesting and thought provoking. There's something to be said about a nation's collective trauma and implying a connection between the trauma experienced after the Civil War and post 9/11 America. The public was really, deeply hurt after 9/11, and this is pretty much the same kind of response that Bush had. He even called it a crusade. That's clearly what's going on with Valentine, except for him, he's a Civil War veteran and POW. That and the downplaying of how bad American imperialism was, and with Valentine not really getting revenge on other countries specifically, makes him look a bit better than Bush, even though they're having the same basic response. Nothing bad will ever happen to America, ever again. That and there's the basic confusion of a villain having an understandable motivation, it doesn't mean that you're supposed to go "Maybe they have a point." It's just...good character writing.
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Sep 18, 2019 18:32
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BaDandy posted:That and there's the basic confusion of a villain having an understandable motivation, it doesn't mean that you're supposed to go "Maybe they have a point." It's just...good character writing.
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Sep 18, 2019 19:37
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I feel like the Venn diagram of people who thought Thanos was right and people who thought Valentine was right is a circle but yeah, basically that. Also, pretty interesting that Diego wasn't planning on actually killing Johnny while Johnny was ready to murder him at a moment's notice, lol.
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Sep 18, 2019 20:37
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