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https://twitter.com/lawrence_miles/status/1174357483801980928
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Sep 18, 2019 17:58
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Bobstar posted:Anyone got any recommendations for books about how austerity has ruined things, by people who live/work in those things? Adam Kay's This is Going to Hurt is very good on the state of the NHS
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Sep 18, 2019 18:01
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Ms Adequate posted:There's variance, some say "capitalism bad" some say "capitalism okay but ruined by immigrants" and some say "capitalism amazing but kidnapped by jews; are you a bad enough aryan to rescue capitalism?" Fascism's entire raison d'etre is to take the popularity of socialist arguments among the oppressed and deflect them to anywhere but the ruling classes.
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Sep 18, 2019 18:03
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Eschenique posted:Isn't he that Scottish Centrist who said Corbyn doesn't care about the UK and just wants to destroy the Tory party with no other plans or aspirations? He said he doesn't care about becoming PM, or brexit. I don't agree with that take myself. I think Corbyn is just motivated by simple selfless honesty and Blyth (no e) is just too cynical and into this particular world view to see it.
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Sep 18, 2019 18:09
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goddamnedtwisto posted:Fascism's entire raison d'etre is to take the popularity of socialist arguments among the oppressed and deflect them to anywhere but the ruling classes. Well, they also want to be the ruling classes themselves, but I take your point.  Fake e; Also remember that HorseLord's main objection to Stalin is that he was a bit of a soft touch so tbh I'm willing to bet he was more than just quibbling about the terms used.
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Sep 18, 2019 18:10
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WAR CRIME GIGOLO posted:Mark Blythe - Austerity the history of a dangerous idea An even shorter summary: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tmtK2thXOUs
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Sep 18, 2019 18:17
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OwlFancier posted:Even then i'd argue that "lived experience" is a far more useful way to look at it because it is the basis of the formation of ideas. Have you ever seen an argument about foreign policy at all? That's where this concept gets bandied about most. You will immediately run into people saying poo poo like "you're a tankie and imperialist for denying the lived experience of rhodesians". It's a completely de-classed concept, where the "lived experience" of the most reactionary person from a given place can be cherrypicked and turned into a reason why it's not woke to criticize them. Because if you criticize them you're "talking over a lived experience" and that is the biggest crime you could do. It's not even a particularly new trick, although this terminology is new. People were in different words told not to talk over the lived experiences of sudeten germans. It's radlib bullshit, it exists to give a progressive sheen to reactionary thought in order to trick stupid people. A person's class, their relation to society and power, is the primary influence over the Experience They Live and therefore the ideas they hold. If you do not make this explicit all of the time you will drown under the lived experiences testimony of fascists, mujahideen and other freaks freshly delivered to your door by your nearest pro-war totallynotacop "leftist".
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Sep 18, 2019 18:34
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Ms Adequate posted:Fake e; Also remember that HorseLord's main objection to Stalin is that he was a bit of a soft touch so tbh I'm willing to bet he was more than just quibbling about the terms used. tbf HorseLord stands by their view rather than quibbling about what they actually meant like actual fascists constantly loving do
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Sep 18, 2019 18:34
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Eschenique posted:In the same speech Blythe also said that capitalism will fix global warming on it's own once it gets serious enough. Implying that we shouldn't worry about it now. He elaborates in a different version of that talk where he basically expects the USA to do the right thing when it's tried every other option first - the country will ignore (yup), delay (yup), blame others (sort of, it's coming with China/India for sure), half arse a solution (carbon capture) but when the drinking water in Miami (I think is the example he gave) is permanently rendered undrinkable then suddenly the capitalist forces of the USA and the world will be forced to make the radical changes needed to preserve their own place in the system. The costs to green the global economy are supposedly about 3% of global GDP over a number of years so even if it's actually a lot more than that then it's within the realms of possibility. It ignores tipping points, capitalist selfcentredness and stupidity and the horrendous costs of waiting that long but his general belief is that capitalism is simply too resilient to collapse forever or be replaced so the world system will eventually do whatever it has to to keep existing. namesake fucked around with this message at 18:37 on Sep 18, 2019 |
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Sep 18, 2019 18:35
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Rarity posted:The Twitter replies you see are determined by an algorithm based on your previous activity to show replies Twitter thinks you will be most interested in. So in short, if all you're seeing is people being a dick then it's cause you've got a history of being a dick. Social media putting engagement at any cost, even to the point of messing with peoples mental health, is nothing new. Facebook has been doing it for almost half a decade that we know of, and Twitter really started ramping it up when they started to default to the new timeline where tweets aren't presented in the order they were made in, but rather by what Twitter thinks will drive the most engagement. Only way I know of to avoid it is to stop using Facebook all-together (a good choice in any case, although deleting your account won't make an ounce of difference), and using tweetdeck. So a BBC correspondent just casually trying to egg a witch-hunt, much like  does? And also likes protecting child molesters?What a staggering coincidence.
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Sep 18, 2019 18:36
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I have way more respect for being open about your views than those who try and hide behind decorum language and weasel words
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Sep 18, 2019 18:36
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these posts brought to you by juche gang
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Sep 18, 2019 18:37
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namesake posted:He elaborates in a different version of that talk where he basically expects the USA to do the right thing when it's tried every other option first - the country will ignore (yup), delay (yup), blame others (sort of, it's coming with China/India for sure), half arse a solution (carbon capture) but when the drinking water in Miami (I think is the example he gave) is permanently rendered undrinkable then suddenly the capitalist forces of the USA and the world will be forced to make the radical changes needed to preserve their own place in the system. In my opinion the problem is that by the time the effects of global warming become so bad that it forces the hand of capitalism. It could be too late. If not too late for humanity then at least too late for billions of poor people.
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Sep 18, 2019 18:38
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HorseLord posted:Have you ever seen an argument about foreign policy at all? That's where this concept gets bandied about most. Contrarily I'd suggest that political movements are made up of confluences of lived experiences, and that class can sometimes read as "well you have the same relationship to power therefore you should come to the same conclusion as me" while ignoring all the other pressures that manifestly lead others not to come to the same conclusion as you. Lived experience is the basis of the formation of ideas and so i find it to be a necessary starting point when trying to figure out why people have the politics they have. It's not just relationship to power, it's literally everything they're subjected to over the course of their lives, and while class is useful for identifying problems in people's lives, I don't find it enormously helpful for actually trying to persuade them of anything or very useful when it comes to figuring out why people of the same class might go to any of the various political positions. Like "you are working class whether you realise it or not and therefore you should think this because that's the correct politics for the working class" is not, I think, a very compelling argument to anyone. The concept of lived experience is helpful as a starting point to figure out reasons why people do not adopt the correct politics. I have always been working class but I have not always been a socialist, it is through chance exposure to things in my life that have made me into one of those. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 18:42 on Sep 18, 2019 |
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Sep 18, 2019 18:39
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Tesseraction posted:tbf HorseLord stands by their view rather than quibbling about what they actually meant like actual fascists constantly loving do Entirely fair. Tesseraction posted:these posts brought to you by juche gang When you think about it isn't Planet Earth just one big juche system?
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Sep 18, 2019 18:40
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Ms Adequate posted:There's variance, some say "capitalism bad" some say "capitalism okay but ruined by immigrants" and some say "capitalism amazing but kidnapped by jews; are you a bad enough aryan to rescue capitalism?" And some say "barely disguised feudalism is actually socialism and disagreeing means you're a class traitor"
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Sep 18, 2019 18:44
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ronya posted:you're probably thinking about something pikettyesque, probably not harvey; exogenous growth implies a non-marxist Eschenique posted:Isn't he that Scottish Centrist who said Corbyn doesn't care about the UK and just wants to destroy the Tory party with no other plans or aspirations?
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Sep 18, 2019 18:47
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Eschenique posted:In my opinion the problem is that by the time the effects of global warming become so bad that it forces the hand of capitalism. It could be too late. If not too late for humanity then at least too late for billions of poor people. Oh absolutely, it's rejecting the concept of annihilation entirely but his attitude is forcibly positive - no point accepting inevitable doom until it's actually happening.
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Sep 18, 2019 18:48
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I see "lived experience" in domestic intraorganizational contexts than in foreign policy talk really it is equally neoliberal - lived experience, hence individualist procedural justice, rather than class consciousness and mass action - but the kind of communism that explicitly rejects egalitarian claims to due process (as an illegitimate bourgeois brake on the rule of the working class, &c) does not have much traction today anyway
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Sep 18, 2019 18:52
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As to "lived experiences" I get where HL is coming from but on the other hand it's fairly vital to me that, for example, queer people get to have a voice and a stake as queer people. If we go too far into lived experiences it can be used in a "more women prison guards" sense for sure, but if we discount it entirely then we can end up either with mega-liberal "wait for a more convenient season" or Stalinist "homosexuality is a boojie affectation". Humans seem happy to bend any ideology to being cunts to each other so we really need to have minorities of all stripes get prominent voices and places, because their lived experiences tell us what the problems they face actually are. There's no inherent reason an entirely economically equal society should be equal in other ways as well; it'd be significantly better because, yes, economic injustice is an incredibly potent means of oppressing people, but ultimately having the same position in society as a bunch of good ol' boys doesn't mean they won't beat you to death with baseball bats or drag you behind their pickup for three miles. Which is why intersectionality and inclusivity and the like can't be totally disregarded.
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Sep 18, 2019 18:57
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Understanding lived experience as the basis of idea formation also does not remotely require you to say all conclusions based on it are valid. Because a lot of what people are exposed to are lies, or not representative of the experiences of an important number of other people.
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Sep 18, 2019 19:00
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Ms Adequate posted:As to "lived experiences" I get where HL is coming from but on the other hand it's fairly vital to me that, for example, queer people get to have a voice and a stake as queer people. If we go too far into lived experiences it can be used in a "more women prison guards" sense for sure, but if we discount it entirely then we can end up either with mega-liberal "wait for a more convenient season" or mega-liberal "homosexuality is a boojie affectation". The way that you deal with this is to talk about both their class and their other thing at the same time. You never just do one or the other, you always do both. That's what I'm saying. I'm also saying that we should reject the terminology coming from the hire more women guards camp, because it is tailored specifically for the purposes of that kind of dishonest and malevolent thinking.
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Sep 18, 2019 19:02
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CGI Stardust posted:It was very, very odd. For the first point, the Tory party was falling apart on its own anyway - no way of engaging a younger voter base. And Corbyn was a backbencher, sure, but because his side of politics haven't been driving the Labour Party for decades, not because he doesn't want to take power. For the second point, this is just bad. Markets don't seem to be great at long-term thinking on their own, so we wait until a disaster strikes somewhere important for governments to become aware of the problem (i.e. Global North, doesn't matter to Blyth if a bunch of poors die in the South, not his concern; also it has to be obviously climate-driven or it'll be justified away), and then we'll get a war economy but for climate? It might take a while until that disaster happens, by which time we've pumped a load more CO2 into the atmosphere, so even if magic tech eliminates new emissions there'll still be a certain number of years of worsening on top of that anyway because of the delay between emission and climate effect, and that'll have an effect on the politics, which (he says) will tend right if things get worse, which will make it harder to deal with climate issues. It's a poo poo idea, and that's assuming said tech can actually exist! What about... activism? doing something now instead of waiting? wouldn't those be better, Mark? aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa tbf I don't think Blyth sets out to make any statements about "ought", he's entirely concerned with explaining what he sees as "is" and "will be". And in that lens his analysis is coherent; the global north won't give two shits if half of Bangladesh sinks into the Bay of Bengal and Africa undergoes massive desertification, but when the flood waters start doing real and lasting damage in London and New York gets flattened by a hurricane then we'll start seeing real changes even within the capitalist system. I mean I don't think that's entirely plausible on its own merits because Katrina and Michael and Florence sure don't seem to have done that and major American cities have been practically wiped out, and it certainly doesn't mean capitalism would succeed in its attempts.
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Sep 18, 2019 19:03
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HorseLord posted:The way that you deal with this is to talk about both their class and their other thing at the same time. You never just do one or the other, you always do both. That's what I'm saying. Oh well yeah in that case we're not in disagreement for the most part.
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Sep 18, 2019 19:04
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OwlFancier posted:Contrarily I'd suggest that political movements are made up of confluences of lived experiences, and that class can sometimes read as "well you have the same relationship to power therefore you should come to the same conclusion as me" while ignoring all the other pressures that manifestly lead others not to come to the same conclusion as you. There is also the brownian motion of ideas that we take in when we come into contact with others, so the opinions and knowledge of those people we have met along the way also have a huge influence on how and what we think.
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Sep 18, 2019 19:16
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https://twitter.com/MikeGapes/status/1174298982207676418 (We really need a Gapes crying milk tears gif)
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Sep 18, 2019 19:19
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Anyone have that facebook post of a guy who used to work for the BBC detailing all the important positions that have been filled with tories over the past years?
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Sep 18, 2019 19:22
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Ms Adequate posted:tbf I don't think Blyth sets out to make any statements about "ought", he's entirely concerned with explaining what he sees as "is" and "will be". And in that lens his analysis is coherent; the global north won't give two shits if half of Bangladesh sinks into the Bay of Bengal and Africa undergoes massive desertification, but when the flood waters start doing real and lasting damage in London and New York gets flattened by a hurricane then we'll start seeing real changes even within the capitalist system.
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Sep 18, 2019 19:24
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I liked HL's quote edit it's very HL
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Sep 18, 2019 19:25
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Reported Kuenssberg’s tweet and made a complaint to the BBC. It’ll make gently caress all difference but you’ve got to try, right?
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Sep 18, 2019 19:27
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Shocking that the Lib Dems wouldn't trust Mike Gapes and CUKTIG to lead the Remain fight against the Tories and Labour by themselves imo
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Sep 18, 2019 19:29
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Pesky Splinter posted:https://twitter.com/MikeGapes/status/1174298982207676418 God I love how many times people keep trusting the Lib Dems and being truly confounded when they turn out to be snakes. A Buttery Pastry posted:What American cities have been "practically wiped out"? Katrina was basically used as tool of gentrification, which is like the opposite of what you want if you want capitalists to do anything positive to combat climate change. Pretty sure Blyth is talking about having to actually write off a major city as just lost, causing a cascade of bankruptcies that directly affect the portfolios of rich people due to both the direct effects as well as the devaluation of other at-risk cities. Okay I may have exaggerated a touch but New Orleans' population was halved, almost 2000 people died, 80% of the city flooded, and I can find damage figures anywhere from $70billion to $160bil. It could be worse but I'm not sure that a city hit that hard and not prompting a response beyond Congress going "how can we blame the army corps of engineering" bodes well for future changes in course. Capitalism found a way to turn that to its advantage instead of having to pay higher taxes to deal with climate change; the fact New Orleans got gentrified is exactly why I don't think his arguments about what capitalism will do are entirely credible.
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Sep 18, 2019 19:33
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Coohoolin posted:Anyone have that facebook post of a guy who used to work for the BBC detailing all the important positions that have been filled with tories over the past years? https://twitter.com/WhatEvil/status/1174328695785426949?s=20
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Sep 18, 2019 19:33
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How the mighty are fallen or become LibDems anyway. How many are left in the Cuktigs? https://twitter.com/SmokinKones/status/1174303959353384960
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Sep 18, 2019 19:35
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those three seats all seem like places where the incumbent is nailed-on to lose so the Lib Dems would be pretty stupid if they didn't run candidates there mega s though that people are still surprised about getting knifed by them in tyool 2019
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Sep 18, 2019 19:36
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Ms Adequate posted:As to "lived experiences" I get where HL is coming from but on the other hand it's fairly vital to me that, for example, queer people get to have a voice and a stake as queer people. If we go too far into lived experiences it can be used in a "more women prison guards" sense for sure, but if we discount it entirely then we can end up either with mega-liberal "wait for a more convenient season" or Stalinist "homosexuality is a boojie affectation". Humans seem happy to bend any ideology to being cunts to each other so we really need to have minorities of all stripes get prominent voices and places, because their lived experiences tell us what the problems they face actually are. You can end up in weird places with this, like what about religious groups? What about religious groups whose views are discriminatory. You can even go full disingenuous right wing dickhead and say "no fire codes that don't account for arsonist standpoints" but I think just acknowledging stratified standpoints is a good enough start that we can worry about that when we get there.
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Sep 18, 2019 19:41
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Jaeluni Asjil posted:How the mighty are fallen or become LibDems anyway. How many are left in the Cuktigs?  Soubry, Gapes, Chris Leslie, Joan Ryan, and Ann Coffey (the one everyone forgets because she's such a loving non-entity).
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Sep 18, 2019 19:50
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Guavanaut posted:I blame Pro-Lifers for most of this. Like going back to when my grandma was young, nobody would consider an early miscarriage to be a 'pregnancy loss' and the only people who gave a toss about when life began was the Pope and his lot and their ideological pervert counterparts in the Calvinists, plus the odd judge hemming and hawing about whether the Offences Against the Person Act 1861 covered herbal teas. Ordinary people didn't seem to much care. Part of that was due to appallingly bad sex education and poorer health outcomes, but another part was due to the large number of people trying to end pregnancies by drinking gin and jumping backwards off the kitchen sink or drinking pennyroyal in the absence of reliable contraception. Jumped ahead to reply etc but I went through a miscarriage in 2012 and I wasn't devastated by it because I give a poo poo about pro life or religion or anything else but because we'd just gone through a loving miscarriage, and "was it anything we did/could have done differently?" were among the first thoughts we had between us. I can't speak for others but we certainly bonded with the bump and felt serious loss after the fact, with both of us pro choice atheists. My deepest sympathies to LL and PMs are always open should a stranger that's been through similar feel a useful ear.
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Sep 18, 2019 19:51
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Lmao if you don’t believe the hospital dude was a grand 160th dimensional chess move from Dominic Cummings in a brilliant effort to revive Boris’s popularity
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Sep 18, 2019 19:52
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Lord Ludikrous posted:So a few weeks ago I excitedly announced in this thread that I was going to be a dad. Hadn't spotted this earlier, really sorry to hear it. Hope you and your lady are okay.
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Sep 18, 2019 19:54
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