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Strange Poon posted:I'm not queer but I've had similar experiences with being othered and how that is paralleled by the X-Men. This is why I don't want to dismiss their behavior as cult-ish. I can see how it comes off that way, and it may very well turn out to be as such, but I can also see this being about what mutants start to feel and act like when they "belong", that they're safe, and working toward unity without worrying about integrating or forcing themselves to live and act by the rules and norms of people that are attempting to exterminate them. I'm sure some X-Men will see it differently and it will be explored in the upcoming books but I think Hickman is trying to show what happens when mutants are coming together in solidarity, embracing what makes them weird and different. There's definitely some kind of pod people vibe but I get the sense more that they're being "re-born" through community and collaboration. RE: the cult thing... I think there's a difference between finding a place to be excepted and creating a culture of isolation. I think this is especially true for a group who are actually superior to the rest of the world. In that case, I think there's a fine line between pride in yourself and ideas of supremacy. Not to get too political, but Hickman hasn't been shy about references to Israel, with Magneto literally telling human representatives that MUTANTS ARE THEIR NEW GODS NOW in Jerusalem. Israel is a good example of a group of people who have been brutally treated in the past, found a physical home, and since then, done some extremely questionable things in the belief that their way of life was endangered. This is especially true of the current far-right government. Also, again: when Apocalypse is like "oh, this is loving awesome!" I'm not sure we're supposed to be identifying it as a positive thing. But at the same time, the validity of feeling like you've finally found a home/culture/family when you've been an oppressed person your whole life is extremely important so I'm certainly not judging anyone who is seeing positives in this. RE: this being a setup... It's funny because I'm someone who has been a trade-waiter for almost 20 years now and this is one of the few times I've picked up a book on a weekly/monthly basis, but I suspect issues like this week's will read better in a chunk, where it won't feel so isolated. I think that reading- for the first time anyway- of HoX #2 would hurt that issue.
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Sep 19, 2019 13:30
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danbanana posted:RE: the cult thing... I think there's a difference between finding a place to be excepted and creating a culture of isolation. I think this is especially true for a group who are actually superior to the rest of the world. In that case, I think there's a fine line between pride in yourself and ideas of supremacy. Not to get too political, but Hickman hasn't been shy about references to Israel, with Magneto literally telling human representatives that MUTANTS ARE THEIR NEW GODS NOW in Jerusalem. Israel is a good example of a group of people who have been brutally treated in the past, found a physical home, and since then, done some extremely questionable things in the belief that their way of life was endangered. This is especially true of the current far-right government. I definitely expect there to be trouble in paradise and I have no illusions that this could sour. The scene in Jerusalem with Magneto was great and was very cool (and kind of a quintessential Magneto moment) but I'm hoping this will have a deeper meaning than an eventual, hamfisted "all oppressed people turn into their oppressors" foreshadowing, though. Or if it is, that it's well done contemplation on why that is, you know? Interesting though that the line is thin between Cult and Community and that the issue can be interpreted as at least riding the line. I agree that Apocalypse being there could be a huge red flag but I'm REALLY curious where it will go, because it seems like Hickman is attempting to turn Apocalypse more complex. I mean everything he is shown to have done (waging an impossible war against machines into the far, far future, and battling demons at the dawn of time with magic swords alongside old mutant-gods on a sentient island) turns him into... I dunno a Frank Frazetta Heavy Metal cover badass instead of a Mustache Twirlingly Genocider. Of course, we'll see how it plays out.
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Sep 19, 2019 14:39
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ImpAtom posted:This feels a little harder to justify in the Marvel universe where clones and souls are both known to exist. Like genuinely multiple X-Men have experience with the whole souls thing. Even if Professor X is putting their complete memories and knowledge into their heads perfectly, that just makes them Ben Reily, not Peter Parker. Way cooler?
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Sep 19, 2019 14:47
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The other big thing from the last issue, for me at least was the notion that Synch is now alive. One crappy Gen-X death undone. Let's hope they bring Skin back too.
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Sep 19, 2019 14:49
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I'm not clear on his current powers but I thought it was interesting they brought Angel back with natural wings and somewhere between the egg room and the public address changed them into metal ones. I assume that also explains how Wolverine retains his adamantium. Weird that they at least appear to have kept Scott's brain damage. I mean outside of all this weird Elixer never was like "oh hey let me fix that"
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Sep 19, 2019 14:49
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Strange Poon posted:I agree that Apocalypse being there could be a huge red flag but I'm REALLY curious where it will go, because it seems like Hickman is attempting to turn Apocalypse more complex. I mean everything he is shown to have done (waging an impossible war against machines into the far, far future, and battling demons at the dawn of time with magic swords alongside old mutant-gods on a sentient island) turns him into... I dunno a Frank Frazetta Heavy Metal cover badass instead of a Mustache Twirlingly Genocider. Of course, we'll see how it plays out. His presence in the Excalibur book definitely indicates a turn towards Magneto-like "good guy." Which I find interesting because his character has basically been extremist-version-of-Magneto-who-was-introduced-during-Magneto's-good-guy-period. Another thought along that: in Life IX, Moira kills Mags and Chuck and hooks up with Apocalypse who... creates a mutant-only nation state, isolated from the human world. Other than Krakoa's ability to be all over the world at once, how is that that much different than what we've seen here? Is Moira's "break the rules" thing just reincarnating mutants but keep the same rough strategy?
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Sep 19, 2019 14:52
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Vishass posted:I'm not clear on his current powers but I thought it was interesting they brought Angel back with natural wings and somewhere between the egg room and the public address changed them into metal ones. I assume that also explains how Wolverine retains his adamantium. Weird that they at least appear to have kept Scott's brain damage. I mean outside of all this weird Elixer never was like "oh hey let me fix that" Archangel can switch between being Angel and Archangel and has been able to do so for some time.
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Sep 19, 2019 15:01
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Vishass posted:I'm not clear on his current powers but I thought it was interesting they brought Angel back with natural wings and somewhere between the egg room and the public address changed them into metal ones. I assume that also explains how Wolverine retains his adamantium. Weird that they at least appear to have kept Scott's brain damage. I mean outside of all this weird Elixer never was like "oh hey let me fix that" That was changed years ago. it's a mental thing now, and even though he knows it's a mental block he can't fix it anyway. And even though he knows 100 psychics including his mentor, ex-wife, other ex-wife, ex-girlfriend, other ex-girlfriend but she still loves him, none of them can help him. And even though they have helped him with it in previous stories something something no.
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Sep 19, 2019 15:01
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ImpAtom posted:This feels a little harder to justify in the Marvel universe where clones and souls are both known to exist. Like genuinely multiple X-Men have experience with the whole souls thing. Even if Professor X is putting their complete memories and knowledge into their heads perfectly, that just makes them Ben Reily, not Peter Parker. I personally don't think that's the way it'll be handled here, but it's not impossible, even with souls existing in this setting. I do wonder if this is all going to have something to do with that big Inferno event that Hickman is teasing about revisiting. I never really read much about the first Inferno storyline, so I don't know if it has all that much to do with souls or anything, but it's hard to imagine that this...the supernatural side of the X-franchise...would get two references last week if it didn't mean something important?
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Sep 19, 2019 15:03
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I guess it would be a bit complicated. Farouk is a mutant, but the Shadow King isn't.
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Sep 19, 2019 15:06
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BrianWilly posted:I never really read much about the first Inferno storyline You should fix this. I know part of my love for that story is nostalgia (it was one of the first x-stories I read pieces of), but I think it is legit great and a perfect encapsulation of Claremont's best habits. This video from the guy who is doing the Claremont Run data analysis thing is pretty spot-on for me. There's some spoilers in there, though the story is 30 years old so whatever. Also, the Daredevil portion by Nocenti has him fight a loving vacuum cleaner for a whole goddam issue.
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Sep 19, 2019 15:22
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was reading a review of x-men: grand design over at TCJ and this bit is a good summation of what made claremont's run so good and what PoX/HoX is missingquote:Claremont has a gift for reinterpreting events without rewriting them (see also Avengers Annual #10, which harrowingly recontextualizes Captain Marvel’s departure from the Avengers). But retcons are only one way that he capitalizes on the strengths of episodic storytelling. His work on the X-Men is intuitive and non-linear: he’s frequently jumpstarting issues in the middle of the action, crowbarring origin stories into characters’ real time traumatic events, or planting plot points that won’t pay off for years. The throughline is emotion, not action. It’s messy in the way the characters might themselves be experiencing the events. Some of the non-linear storytelling occurs for practical reasons, like the recapping of past events to give new readers a foothold in the narrative. But those recaps often have a Rashomon effect for longtime readers—each appearance gives shades of fresh insight and added context to familiar beats. As in real life, the present is always remixing the past. http://www.tcj.com/reviews/x-men-grand-design-second-genesis/
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Sep 19, 2019 16:34
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PoX/HoX is not a run. That comes after. It's an event book.
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Sep 19, 2019 16:37
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Aphrodite posted:PoX/HoX is not a run. That comes after. It's an event book. it's... a comic book.
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Sep 19, 2019 16:42
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Parallax posted:it's... a comic book. Sure, but comparing 9 issues to a run that spanned 3 decades maybe doesn't feel completely analogous?
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Sep 19, 2019 16:46
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Yeah, this is all really the prologue to a potentially bigger story. I was thinking about where Moira is, and I thought maybe she was already dead before her powers manifested and that this was the end result of her last life. But that's not the case because Proteus is there. Is she just on ice until Phalanx times? Maybe she uses the cure on herself once she's found a timeline that's a keeper.
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Sep 19, 2019 16:50
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qwewq posted:Sure, but comparing 9 issues to a run that spanned 3 decades maybe doesn't feel completely analogous? it’s not a one to one comparison, it’s a comparison of storytelling. you don’t have to look at claremont’s whole run, you could pull out any 9 issue (or less) run and see it
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Sep 19, 2019 16:51
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qwewq posted:Sure, but comparing 9 issues to a run that spanned 3 decades maybe doesn't feel completely analogous? It also is being written/"showrun" by two very different writers. Some writers are more plot-oriented; some are character-oriented. I think- assuming the actual writers aren't loving bad at being writers, which I think most agree Hickman and Claremont aren't that- it's perfectly acceptable to have personal preference for one style over the other. I totally understand the reaction to HoXPoX as being cold or over-explanatory. But it also matters that this is clearly setup and for someone with a track record like Hickman, the benefit of the doubt at this point is important.
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Sep 19, 2019 16:54
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Sesq posted:I was thinking about where Moira is, and I thought maybe she was already dead before her powers manifested and that this was the end result of her last life. But that's not the case because Proteus is there. Is she just on ice until Phalanx times? Maybe she uses the cure on herself once she's found a timeline that's a keeper. If she's dead before manifestation, then X^0 has to be a different life than HoX is taking place in and the "reveal" by Moira to Xavier/Magneto isn't what's driving the Krakoa thing. I still think that's a possibility- that HoX is not the life we think or that X^0 or X^3 aren't either- but the surface level analysis says Moira's just still in hiding.
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Sep 19, 2019 16:59
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Just wondering if I should be worried about Cerebro being a machine that backlogs all the Mutants similar to how Nimrod digitizes people in a Xmen vs SF tankpod.
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Sep 19, 2019 17:18
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Sesq posted:Yeah, this is all really the prologue to a potentially bigger story. Well like I said earlier, I think this is all a red herring and her real plan is that she's infiltrating Orchis using the X men to eliminate the competition. How better to guarantee victory than be in control of both sides of the war?
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Sep 19, 2019 19:11
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FilthyImp posted:Just wondering if I should be worried about Cerebro being a machine that backlogs all the Mutants similar to how Nimrod digitizes people in a Xmen vs SF tankpod. I noticed this too. It might lead into the Phalanx storyline next week. The new December solicits imply some very interesting things. Jean Grey, still in her weird Marvel Girl costume, about to take over running Cerebro? Apocalypse doing all kinds of weird poo poo? Whatever this is? 
Billzasilver fucked around with this message at 20:43 on Sep 19, 2019 |
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Sep 19, 2019 20:12
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danbanana posted:It also is being written/"showrun" by two very different writers. Some writers are more plot-oriented; some are character-oriented. I think- assuming the actual writers aren't loving bad at being writers, which I think most agree Hickman and Claremont aren't that- it's perfectly acceptable to have personal preference for one style over the other. I totally understand the reaction to HoXPoX as being cold or over-explanatory. But it also matters that this is clearly setup and for someone with a track record like Hickman, the benefit of the doubt at this point is important. Earlier someone said something like "Well things that aren't important to the setup aren't going to be included here" but it's like...convincing worldbuilding is 100% important to the setup? This isn't a small element to be put off till later. Making us understand why all these mutants and X-Men are okay with this new status quo, the complete upending of their previous mission statement of peaceful coexistence with humankind, should absolutely be pivotal to establishing the new status quo. Less than a year ago Jean Grey was flying above the clouds sensing the pangs of everyone around her, promising that she will help them all, and then speaking with the leaders of the world about her dream of a hate-free society. Where is she now? This is just one character out of the dozens appearing in this series whose characterization really ought to be examined in order to establish a believable storyline. We can't take one page or two out of twelve whole issues to do just that for...literally any of them? Even within this series itself there are confusing or conflicting elements. Wolverine and Nightcrawler share a heartrending moment before their suicide run, but the way that they talk, it's as if they're sure that they're definitely going to die and that no one will bring them back. The next issue...it seems that everyone is aware they can be brought back. So what does that make of the heartrending moment? How are we, as readers of this series, supposed to take that other than "Well now I'm confused"? You can't really look at those sorts of issues within this story and go "Hey I'll just leave that for other writers to deal with." This isn't a matter of certain writers having certain strengths over others, this is a matter of these issues being issues with your story so, like, deal with them yourself  . I'm being harsh here despite the fact that I have been interested in this run and certainly haven't given up on it yet, but there's only a scant few issues of this "setup" left and at this point I'm not sure that a last-minute shock reveal like "oops everyone's actually mind-controlled! TBC!" is going be enough to patch these holes.
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Sep 19, 2019 22:03
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It's a backup system. That Wolverine and Nightcrawler still died. They don't wake up in a new body. Scott had to ask if it worked.
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Sep 19, 2019 22:12
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Not according to Magneto. Polaris questions if it's really them if they just grow new bodies for them, and Magneto says Cerebro puts "a soul back into its mutant shell." Scott was asking about the mission, not the resurrection. Xavier responds "It did. You succeeded." I don't think it's true resurrection, but for the purposes of the writing, the characters obviously do, which raises the questions and contradictions that ought to be addressed within the writing.
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Sep 19, 2019 22:33
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Whether or not they have the same soul and everything, they don't have the memories. That means for the consciousness of Wolverine and Nightcrawler in that moment, they died and everything went black.
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Sep 19, 2019 22:35
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I was under the impression this was a soft reboot, is it not one? Was there a lead-up to HoX/PoX? How much of...everything else actually happened in this timeline (which I'll assume is 10)? I'm enjoying it because it is very much broad strokes and as someone that didn't follow the X-Men because haha gently caress that noise too much poo poo happening I don't really know most of the interplay other than the very obvious poo poo - Apocalypse being into Xavier's plan is a big red sign, for instance. edit: also yeah, they keep a backup of everything up to their death, that was my understanding of it. They still die, and it was shown that that's not especially desirable neither for the dead mutants nor for Xavier.
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Sep 19, 2019 22:40
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Aphrodite posted:Whether or not they have the same soul and everything, they don't have the memories. Kinda strange, isn't it. Seems like something that should be addressed.
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Sep 19, 2019 22:42
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BrianWilly posted:And yet everyone seems to be acting like they're back and that this is a resurrection. The narration literally refers to it as resurrection. As far as the not-dead characters are concerned, it's a resurrection. The Scott, Kurt, Jean, etc. who come out of the eggs are the same people they've known for years, minus up to seven days' worth of memories. But they all still died in space.
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Sep 19, 2019 23:04
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If Wolverine and Nightcrawler believe that their souls will be returned to a cloned body -- if they believe that resurrection via the Five is a genuine resurrection of the body and spirit -- then it makes no sense for them to be talking about the afterlife as if that's where they're going. If Wolverine and Nightcrawler don't believe that, and in fact believe that their souls will be dead and gone and someone else will be coming out of Goldballs' balls, then it begs the question of why everyone back on Earth is celebrating their return as if they are really them and not completely new people without Logan and Kurt's souls. If everyone back on Earth believes something different than Wolverine and Kurt -- for instance, if the Krakoans believe the clones will be them but Kurt and Logan think otherwise -- then that begs the question of why they think differently. Seems like something that should be addressed.
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Sep 19, 2019 23:15
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I think it's entirely possible no one but Cyclops knew about the eggs going into that mission
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Sep 19, 2019 23:17
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Didn't at least one text portion say they've never tried it before? Obviously other excerpts are from later files because they've tried it a bunch at some point. If that is time #1 though and Xavier didn't tell Nightcrawler and Wolverine about their backups (probably two people who may not be too keen on a backup), well,
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Sep 19, 2019 23:21
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Seems like it literally just came out yesterday.
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Sep 19, 2019 23:23
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We've already seen deceased characters who are walking around Krakoa, like the Stepfords and Banshee, so at the very least the fact that Xavier is bringing people back to life is an open secret amongst mutants. The codex files talk about the Five's resurrection machine in intricate detail, including the amount of times they have done it before (upwards of 1000 at the very, very least) and how the process is getting easier for them over time. If for some reason the space team didn't know about the details of the eggs then, again, it begs the question as to why because something like that really ought to be addressed.Rick posted:Didn't at least one text portion say they've never tried it before? Obviously other excerpts are from later files because they've tried it a bunch at some point. BrianWilly fucked around with this message at 23:30 on Sep 19, 2019 |
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Sep 19, 2019 23:28
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Rick posted:Didn't at least one text portion say they've never tried it before? Obviously other excerpts are from later files because they've tried it a bunch at some point. I don't remember if that's said explicitly, but it's clearly the case that this is the first successful use of a hypothetical technology. In the previous issue Xavier was apoplectic over the deaths of the team, which makes sense since it means there's a, say, 45% chance that the cloning concept won't work, or will produce defective clones, or whatever. There's a possibility the entire group isn't dead forever, but only a possibility. Then you have the reuse of the very first panel with the weirdly mincing Xavier, and now that we've gotten the context to it it's basically an expression of pure delight and relief. There's also the ceremony afterwards, and presumably they're not gonna have one of those every single time somebody dies.
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Sep 19, 2019 23:32
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Rochallor posted:In the previous issue Xavier was apoplectic over the deaths of the team The sentence right before that is "Even knowing I could bring you back." Xavier knew it would work. There are previously-dead mutants walking around Krakoa. The process has been done before.
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Sep 19, 2019 23:35
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Rochallor posted:I don't remember if that's said explicitly, but it's clearly the case that this is the first successful use of a hypothetical technology. In the previous issue Xavier was apoplectic over the deaths of the team, which makes sense since it means there's a, say, 45% chance that the cloning concept won't work, or will produce defective clones, or whatever. There's a possibility the entire group isn't dead forever, but only a possibility. They probably don't do the ceremony every time but it seems more like it's because they just scored a big victory, not just because they were resurrected.
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Sep 19, 2019 23:38
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Rochallor posted:minus up to seven days' worth of memories. Scott knew of the mission when he got his memories back. I take that Xavier ran an extra backup before the mission, as he knew they were likely to not come back. Like when you update your OS, you know to run an extra backup before that!
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Sep 19, 2019 23:47
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BrianWilly posted:We've already seen deceased characters who are walking around Krakoa, like the Stepfords and Banshee, so at the very least the fact that Xavier is bringing people back to life is an open secret amongst mutants. The codex files talk about the Five's resurrection machine in intricate detail, including the amount of times they have done it before (upwards of 1000 at the very, very least) and how the process is getting easier for them over time. If for some reason the space team didn't know about the details of the eggs then, again, it begs the question as to why because something like that really ought to be addressed. It's possible that it's a practiced routine for recovering long-dead mutants, but this is the first time someone's actually died and been reborn since the process began. I'm sure I'd still be scared of death and wondering about the beyond if I were in Wolverine or Nightcrawler's shoes, even if I knew there's a resurrection protocol in place. Even if I was 100% sure my consciousness and soul would be making the journey to the new body, I'm still about to die.
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Sep 19, 2019 23:58
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I’m sure Kurt has strong feelings about the resurrection process, but the only thing he has more faith in than his religion is the X-Men. I can also understand them letting the villains in. Better to keep them close, than leaving them out in the world unsupervised. Krakoa can just as easily be a prison for any mutant that threatens the dream.
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