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This is Colorado so 'play hard' means running a marathon or doing an ironman or something 
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Sep 19, 2019 20:10
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Ferdinand the Bull posted:Ah I see. That's still a pretty big ask from a "Work to live, don't live to work" perspective. What is 'dicking around' anyway? I have some of my most helpful thoughts when I'm *not* banging on the keyboard trying to get code done, and instead take an hour to bullshit about something unrelated with a colleague.
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Sep 19, 2019 20:20
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Cuntpunch posted:That's still a pretty big ask from a "Work to live, don't live to work" perspective. What is 'dicking around' anyway? I have some of my most helpful thoughts when I'm *not* banging on the keyboard trying to get code done, and instead take an hour to bullshit about something unrelated with a colleague. Hey man, if that works it works. If youre getting youre work done and it is solid then youre doing your job. Everybody needs to step away from code every once and a while.
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Sep 20, 2019 02:06
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i think many (most?) dev teams would be more productive if you actually reduced their "effort" whether in hours or work items
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Sep 20, 2019 02:41
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shrike82 posted:i think many (most?) dev teams would be more productive if you actually reduced their "effort" whether in hours or work items That's socialist! /s
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Sep 20, 2019 06:55
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Wibla posted:That's socialist! /s The funny part is that it really is very capitalist to seek to maximize profit instead of following a "rule" of hours works equals pay.
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Sep 20, 2019 07:29
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Keetron posted:The funny part is that it really is very capitalist to seek to maximize profit instead of following a "rule" of hours works equals pay. One-Cookie Capitalism compared to Two-Cookie Capitalism, I suppose
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Sep 20, 2019 13:56
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Ferdinand the Bull posted:It is fair to your employer that you give maximal effort 
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Sep 21, 2019 00:40
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Wtf is wrong with trying hard at your job? Who says you have to stay late, just try hard while youre there.
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Sep 21, 2019 11:11
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Ferdinand the Bull posted:Wtf is wrong with trying hard at your job? Who says you have to stay late, just try hard while youre there. I think there's probably some curiosity on exactly what you envision as 'maximal effort' and 'trying hard'.
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Sep 21, 2019 12:38
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To change the subject, anyone have any advice on getting better at grooming stories? We have grooming sessions and we go through all the stories and everyone nods their heads and says they are good and then they start their story and are instantly blocked by some question or missing bit of info. Edit: I guess the answer is “everyone pay more attention”, just frustrated. smackfu fucked around with this message at 14:40 on Sep 21, 2019 |
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Sep 21, 2019 13:53
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Cuntpunch posted:I think there's probably some curiosity on exactly what you envision as 'maximal effort' and 'trying hard'. I dont mean licking loving boots. I really mean do your own work and dont offload it on someone else. Ferdinand the Bull fucked around with this message at 14:23 on Sep 21, 2019 |
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Sep 21, 2019 14:21
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smackfu posted:To change the subject, anyone have any advice on getting better at grooming stories? We have grooming sessions and we go through all the stories and everyone nods their heads and says they are good and then they start their story and are instantly blocked by some question or missing bit of info. Ask this question at the retro?
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Sep 21, 2019 15:31
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Ferdinand the Bull posted:I dont mean licking loving boots. It's likely a miscommunication thing, but when you say 'maximal effort' that sounds a lot like being *that guy* that glowers if colleagues are peeking at their phones or talking informally for too long, when you say 'trying hard' it conjurs up the image of getting frustrated when someone isn't keyboard-monkeying enough. I don't think you'd see nearly the same response with terms like 'professionalism' or 'responsibility', for example. But that's got nothing to do with hours at the desk, or effort put in, at least not directly. smackfu posted:To change the subject, anyone have any advice on getting better at grooming stories? We have grooming sessions and we go through all the stories and everyone nods their heads and says they are good and then they start their story and are instantly blocked by some question or missing bit of info. There's two traits that overlap here - unfortunately neither are commonly found. One is being able to know what you don't know and admit to it. The other is being able to take fuzzy or incomplete information and extrapolate from it downstream problems or missing requirements. Lots of devs in my experience hate speaking up, especially in group settings, going "Hey wait I don't know what that means". And even with that, devs are also notoriously bad at 'that doesn't sound hard' syndrome: Where at a glance something sounds easy and *then* they get to building it and realize that there's a lot of hidden complexity they didn't realize existed at the start.
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Sep 21, 2019 15:39
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lifg posted:Ask this question at the retro? Yeah, this is an excellent "what didn't work well?" topic. My guess is that you're trying to groom too many issues at once or are working too far down the backlog. All you really need to have groomed is the current sprint and a half or so. Otherwise people check out because poo poo's gonna change anyway and/or the meeting gets too long and boring. Having a separate board for grooming could help, too, with issues getting progressively more detail as they move across and only th far-right column being considered Ready to pull into a sprint. But yeah, retro. It's up to your team to figure out what works best.
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Sep 21, 2019 16:01
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Cuntpunch posted:It's likely a miscommunication thing, but when you say 'maximal effort' that sounds a lot like being *that guy* that glowers if colleagues are peeking at their phones or talking informally for too long, when you say 'trying hard' it conjurs up the image of getting frustrated when someone isn't keyboard-monkeying enough. Definitely not that guy. I do work with that guy and he sucks. It seems like my choice of words was poor. I am the guy who cares about doing a good job and getting the work done that I say I am going to do. Ill change the words i used.
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Sep 21, 2019 17:52
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Ferdinand the Bull posted:All the jobs I've had there has been an expectation that I'm making noticable progress every day. I cherish the days when I have 8 hours to code and my work day isnt clogges up with meetings that just go on and on.
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Sep 21, 2019 17:53
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smackfu posted:To change the subject, anyone have any advice on getting better at grooming stories? We have grooming sessions and we go through all the stories and everyone nods their heads and says they are good and then they start their story and are instantly blocked by some question or missing bit of info. How much time are you spending on refinement and spikes/investigation? If you're doing new things rather than maintaining and incrementally extending a well-understood existing system, there's a good chance you're not doing enough. I'd say that a story is refined and ready for planning if at least two people on the team have a rough idea of how they'd attack the solution, and they're 80% confident it will work. If you can't get to that point in a refinement meeting, turn it into a spike and have someone spend dedicated time on requirements gathering and sketching out potential solutions and tradeoffs. Also - are these blockers actually real, hard blocking questions or resource limitations? It's perfectly normal to get into a story and realize that you don't have every single edge case accounted for. The only solution is open communication between the dev team and product owner. But, when you do run into a blocker, you can usually code up, unit test, and maybe even functionally test the basic cases while you wait for clarification on the weird extras. People sometimes get trapped into an approach that says "if I don't know everything, I can't do anything," and the only solution there is to change team norms.
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Sep 21, 2019 19:02
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I don't give a single iota of a gently caress what is "fair to my employer"
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Sep 21, 2019 23:46
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Gildiss posted:I don't give a single iota of a gently caress what is "fair to my employer" you shouldnt care about what is fair to yoyr employer as much as your team members. I agree that being fair to your employer isnt tge point cuz youre just another disposable goon. Hopefully you care enough to not make poo poo code for everyone else. Also fair to your employer isnt my wording, its the wording of tge person I responded to. Ferdinand the Bull fucked around with this message at 02:15 on Sep 22, 2019 |
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Sep 22, 2019 02:07
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Thanks for the advice on the grooming issues. Have some good ideas to try.Space Gopher posted:But, when you do run into a blocker, you can usually code up, unit test, and maybe even functionally test the basic cases while you wait for clarification on the weird extras. People sometimes get trapped into an approach that says "if I don't know everything, I can't do anything," and the only solution there is to change team norms. Yeah, definitely a lot of that going on. “I’m blocked because I’m waiting on a question about wording.” Lots of newly hired junior devs right now so not surprising.
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Sep 22, 2019 13:32
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smackfu posted:To change the subject, anyone have any advice on getting better at grooming stories? We have grooming sessions and we go through all the stories and everyone nods their heads and says they are good and then they start their story and are instantly blocked by some question or missing bit of info. We attach the list of stories that are up for grooming on the meeting invite, and you’re expected to have looked at them before the meeting. It buys more time for discussion because the person running the meeting doesn’t have to read the tickets out loud. And everyone can discuss it better when they’ve read the tickets ahead of time and slept on it or let it permeate their shower thoughts.
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Sep 22, 2019 17:20
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Ferdinand the Bull posted:you shouldnt care about what is fair to yoyr employer as much as your team members. I agree that being fair to your employer isnt tge point cuz youre just another disposable goon. Hopefully you care enough to not make poo poo code for everyone else. nah, coworkers can be poo poo also
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Sep 22, 2019 18:37
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Gildiss posted:I don't give a single iota of a gently caress what is "fair to my employer" This a bit too nihilistic for my taste. You still willingly entered into a contract with your employer so what's "fair" should at least be within the limits of that contract. There's a huge gray area between "working overtime just because your boss asks nicely" and "doing as little as possible just to gently caress your boss over", but I at least like to take pride in my work, and "do my best". But keeping my work-life balance in check is also part of "fair to my employer". It I get burned out everybody loses.
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Sep 25, 2019 11:39
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Messyass posted:But keeping my work-life balance in check is also part of "fair to my employer". It I get burned out everybody loses. I think of it in terms of priorities: First is my health. Next is family and friends. Third is my career. Doing work that I am proud of and continually learning are both good things for my career, but I don't let them impact my wellbeing or relationships.
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Sep 25, 2019 12:21
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Taking pride in your work in unrelated to what's fair to your employer in my experience.
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Sep 25, 2019 15:53
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Employers do take advantage of your "pride in work" to get you to work under unreasonable conditions.
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Sep 26, 2019 00:54
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shrike82 posted:Employers do take advantage of your "pride in work" to get you to work under unreasonable conditions. That is the drat truth. Also re: unlimited PTO and not taking enough time off: set aside vacation blocks in your calendar and take on slightly less work (if possible) so you're not creating a bow wave. That being said - you sometimes have to let things go and let other people deal with poo poo falling into their laps for things to change Or they might not change, which is a good indicator that you should get the gently caress out.
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Sep 26, 2019 01:53
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You can take pride in your work at 35 hours a week. It's great.
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Sep 26, 2019 02:48
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If anything my pride per hour is higher
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Sep 26, 2019 02:51
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shrike82 posted:Employers do take advantage of your "pride in work" to get you to work under unreasonable conditions. Yea, I got lucky and learned to say gently caress that early.
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Sep 26, 2019 03:30
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I like my job and I want to do less of it.
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Sep 26, 2019 05:29
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Working in Development: I like my job and I want to do less of it.
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Sep 26, 2019 13:12
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Regarding PMs not knowing what they're supposed to be doing, the rate of that seems to be the same as developers that don't know what they are supposed to be doing either. I think it's just more stark to me to see a PM failing like because it's a different domain. I can feel their absence because it's a place where I can't readily step in to fix it because I definitely don't know certain aspects of it. Yet, they try to pawn the work on everybody else just like I see developers doing. It's just a lot easier to snap out of it with PM work and ask "wait, when the hell did this become my problem?"
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Sep 26, 2019 19:57
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csammis posted:Working in Development: I like my job and I want to do less of it. yes
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Sep 26, 2019 20:03
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Sep 26, 2019 20:12
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This week, I'm the bad PM.
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Sep 26, 2019 20:24
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Good employers that want to have a sustainable business know they can’t screw over workers too much or face some crippling problems that will be unsustainable if your company is built on human IP. People work hard where I am and many teams will take a vacation for like 2 weeks together even to stave off the burn-out. Unicorns to me are not companies that raise a shitload of money and grow fast, they’re ones that treat people well, don’t act like a goddamn cult, make money for investors with realistic plans, and turn-over is low. I am at a unicorn working on cool poo poo, have plenty of advancement room, and almost no amount of money can make me leave. It took some time for the company to get here but culture and trust is important up and down and left and right. My CEO may be an ex VC partner probably put in charge to keep the investment from tanking but he has been the most transparent, down to earth, and friendly CEO I’ve ever been under and I know that he could have made way more money selling us off to someone else but he didn’t. He’s already pretty rich and that lets you maybe be more human instead of if I was in charge hungry for my first millions in the bank.
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Sep 26, 2019 20:48
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I need an SAcron app. I want to complain but if I do all my co-workers will immediately know I'm the goon. Let's just say people are making fairly bad decisions about refactoring code. Also,
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Sep 26, 2019 22:33
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necrobobsledder posted:Good employers that want to have a sustainable business know they can’t screw over workers too much or face some crippling problems that will be unsustainable if your company is built on human IP. People work hard where I am and many teams will take a vacation for like 2 weeks together even to stave off the burn-out. Unicorns to me are not companies that raise a shitload of money and grow fast, they’re ones that treat people well, don’t act like a goddamn cult, make money for investors with realistic plans, and turn-over is low. I am at a unicorn working on cool poo poo, have plenty of advancement room, and almost no amount of money can make me leave. It took some time for the company to get here but culture and trust is important up and down and left and right. My CEO may be an ex VC partner probably put in charge to keep the investment from tanking but he has been the most transparent, down to earth, and friendly CEO I’ve ever been under and I know that he could have made way more money selling us off to someone else but he didn’t. He’s already pretty rich and that lets you maybe be more human instead of if I was in charge hungry for my first millions in the bank. Don't anthropomorphize companies, or CEOs for that matter. Sure, work hard to support your team in accomplishing cool stuff but it's not like your CEO is paying you more than the value you're providing your company. I've seen way more examples of employees getting taken advantage of by organizations than the other way around. And lol at quote:People work hard where I am and many teams will take a vacation for like 2 weeks together even to stave off the burn-out. shrike82 fucked around with this message at 02:03 on Sep 27, 2019 |
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Sep 27, 2019 02:00
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