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I assume Karl Marx didn't classify the under aged high school students. But for full time college students, I would put the them under their parents class, so some are proletariat, but most are under petty bourgeoisie/middle class.
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Sep 19, 2019 16:00
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Yeah these college students living with their parents years after graduation sure are pretty bourgeoisie
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Sep 19, 2019 16:35
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RocknRollaAyatollah posted:I'm still surprised for some reason that people think the government of the PRC has the interests of anyone, other than themselves and party members, at heart. There's no real social safety net and the only substantive aid that's been given to lower income earners is to buy their apartments or houses from them at a generous value. Housing also suffers similar problems to Hong Kong in major cities but it's only relieved by the fact that you can live in the suburbs, usually 1 hour to 2 hours away by rail. It's like saying the housing situation in New York City is very equitable because you can live in New Jersey. I mean the PRC seems to have a more comprehensive social welfare system than the US, so saying they have "none" doesn't seem accurate. It seems to be linked to the Hukou system so maybe different areas have different services and standards? I think I'd need to see a comparative analysis that compares China's system with the US and Europe and see where it fits on a spectrum. It doesn't make sense to propose "They don't have a social welfare state, ergo they don't care about their people" because first, if you're proven wrong on the premise; then it implies the opposite when a better argument would've served you better. Second, conservatives will claim the opposite; a government only cares about its people when it does nothing at all because hand outs are bad, etc. You should strive for as generalized an argument as possible irregardless of ideology. Like take your argument and make it to Rand Paul and Rand would outside any other information or context go, "Wow! China cares a lot for its people!"
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Sep 19, 2019 17:05
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Raenir Salazar posted:I mean the PRC seems to have a more comprehensive social welfare system than the US, so saying they have "none" doesn't seem accurate. It seems to be linked to the Hukou system so maybe different areas have different services and standards? I think I'd need to see a comparative analysis that compares China's system with the US and Europe and see where it fits on a spectrum. That's a lot of words to say that you don't know anything and refuse to read posts from people who are or have lived in China
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Sep 19, 2019 17:14
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Darkest Auer posted:That's a lot of words to say that you don't know anything and refuse to read posts from people who are or have lived in China I don't know about you or the people in this thread but I do have Chinese business partners who live in Shanghai and Beijing who I talk to about daily Chinese living and I get a very different impression from RocknRollaAyatollah post which I imagine is hyperbole. Also plenty of Americans think their healthcare system is the best in the WHOLE WORLD, the UN says otherwise, who am I supposed to believe, facts or their feelings just because they live there?
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Sep 19, 2019 17:21
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Raenir Salazar posted:I do have Chinese business partners who live in Shanghai and Beijing who I talk to about daily Chinese living and I get a very different impression from RocknRollaAyatollah post which I imagine is hyperbole. How did you type this and not notice it.
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Sep 19, 2019 17:43
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Do you think that literally anyone in this thread thinks the US has a good healthcare system
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Sep 19, 2019 17:43
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Plastic_Gargoyle posted:How did you type this and not notice it. I guess if you squint really hard you could construe my post that way instead of the way it was intended but you do you.
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Sep 19, 2019 18:30
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"I don't see any problems with Chinese society" says businessman from the 40th floor of his Shanghai hotel
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Sep 19, 2019 19:16
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show me a student controlling the means of production and i'll show you a bourgeois student
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Sep 19, 2019 19:17
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Fojar38 posted:"I don't see any problems with Chinese society" says businessman from the 40th floor of his Shanghai hotel You don't know who they are or their background, you're just an rear end in a top hat.
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Sep 19, 2019 19:39
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Jeoh posted:show me a student controlling the means of production and i'll show you a bourgeois student No, wait. That was a guy I met in the Army.
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Sep 19, 2019 22:39
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Raenir Salazar posted:I guess if you squint really hard you could construe my post that way instead of the way it was intended but you do you. So you aren't suggesting that the two random Chinese people you know are a totally accurate barometer of life in China, but Americans can never be trusted to talk about their own country? (No, we do not have the best healthcare in the world)
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Sep 19, 2019 22:55
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Plastic_Gargoyle posted:So you aren't suggesting that the two random Chinese people you know are a totally accurate barometer of life in China, but Americans can never be trusted to talk about their own country? I heard the craziest thing from my taxi driver in Beijing...
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Sep 19, 2019 22:56
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Raenir Salazar posted:I mean the PRC seems to have a more comprehensive social welfare system than the US. They absolutely do not. The U.S. has social security, medicare, medicaid, SNAP, WIC, unemployment and disability insurance to speak only of things available at the federal level. Chinese welfare systems are mostly managed at local levels, but their social security system is a defined contribution system like an American 401k. It's an opt in.
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Sep 19, 2019 23:12
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Bloodnose posted:They absolutely do not. The U.S. has social security, medicare, medicaid, SNAP, WIC, unemployment and disability insurance to speak only of things available at the federal level. Chinese welfare systems are mostly managed at local levels, but their social security system is a defined contribution system like an American 401k. It's an opt in. The original claim made was: quote:There's no real social safety net and the only substantive aid that's been given to lower income earners is to buy their apartments or houses from them at a generous value. There are three claims in RocknRollaAyatollah's post. 1) A "real" social safety net is a requirement for the government to have a legitimate interest in the well being in its citizens. 2) China does not have a "real" social safety net. 3) China doesn't provide any substantial aid to low income earners. (Unless this claim was specific to HK? Not clear to me) To me, it looks like hyperbole, is an over generalization and overly broad and lacking in nuance; especially since as you say in your post there is a social welfare system, it just isn't a national system (like Canada). And it also seems like social welfare in China has been an ongoing work in progress for the past 30 years. Maybe there are flaws and shortcomings to it; I just think there is room for a more nuanced discussion and overview.
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Sep 19, 2019 23:55
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A statement "there's no real safety net" is as fair a statement as you could make, so it's weird to see it being pedantically challenged in various focus. They have a social welfare system that makes the united states' safety net seem comparatively burgeoning and benevolent, which is bad, because most parts of the US likewise have nothing I would call a real safety net either. If it seemed to you like they had a better or more comprehensive social welfare system, you don't know much about the real situation in that country and should probably learn more.
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Sep 20, 2019 00:03
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Raenir Salazar posted:You don't know who they are or their background, you're just an rear end in a top hat. You did refer to them as "business partners" rather than "co-workers," which perhaps gave a different impression regarding their and your socioeconomic class than you may have intended.
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Sep 20, 2019 01:28
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Can a husband be proletariat and a wife be bourgeoisie if the husband spends nothing on excess and the wife spends all her and his money on excesses. If her education is low and his is high,is he then proletariat?
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Sep 20, 2019 03:05
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Welcome to China chat. The thread where nobody knows Marxism and the posts don't matter.
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Sep 20, 2019 03:14
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BrokenGameboy posted:Welcome to Chinese government. The system where nobody knows Marxism and the posts don't matter.
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Sep 20, 2019 03:55
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Yeah Mao abolished class like 50 years ago, we are all the same now I don't see what the arguing is about.
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Sep 20, 2019 04:48
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WAR CRIME GIGOLO posted:Can a husband be proletariat and a wife be bourgeoisie if the husband spends nothing on excess and the wife spends all her and his money on excesses. If her education is low and his is high,is he then proletariat? Do they file joined tax together?
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Sep 20, 2019 07:14
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https://twitter.com/JiayangFan/status/1175323068916555776?s=20 NYT "journalist" tried to meet with protestors without white people providing a protective bubble for her, almost gets jacked up by protestors for speaking Mandarin: https://twitter.com/JiayangFan/status/1175319171892207616?s=20
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Sep 21, 2019 14:23
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tino posted:I assume Karl Marx didn't classify the under aged high school students. But for full time college students, I would put the them under their parents class, so some are proletariat, but most are under petty bourgeoisie/middle class. University students can be issued from any number of different social classes (which is partly why there are many struggles and contradictions within student politics themselves). People go to university either to reproduce their middle / upper class status, or because they aspire to class mobility into those classes. This makes it hard for working class students to have a revolutionary subjectivity since the reason they are a student in the first place is because of the promise of education as an individualist escape from their lower class condition.
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Sep 21, 2019 16:31
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Bob le Moche posted:University students can be issued from any number of different social classes (which is partly why there are many struggles and contradictions within student politics themselves). Funny, I could have sworn I went to college to study history because I love history.
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Sep 21, 2019 16:55
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Plastic_Gargoyle posted:Funny, I could have sworn I went to college to study history because I love history. It's nice for you that you have the privilege and freedom of spending years doing something just because you find it interesting but most people don't have that as an option. In most capitalist countries, people who don't have parents who can pay for college and are forced to live paycheck-to-paychek must borrow money and go into debt if they want to do post-secondary studies and that is not financially justifiable unless they believe that their college years are an investment that will lead to a better-paying position than they would have otherwise and enable them to pay back those debts. This is how most colleges and universities market their degrees to working class prospective students (and it's the reason why taking on that debt is available from lenders in the first place) Bob le Moche fucked around with this message at 17:07 on Sep 21, 2019 |
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Sep 21, 2019 17:04
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I mean in STEM degrees they're supposed to require electives in other fields to give you a more well rounded education; i.e one that includes history, philosophy, ethics, economics and so on; even if it is only a 101 level dabble its presumably better than nothing.
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Sep 21, 2019 18:44
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Raenir Salazar posted:I mean in STEM degrees they're supposed to require electives in other fields to give you a more well rounded education; i.e one that includes history, philosophy, ethics, economics and so on; even if it is only a 101 level dabble its presumably better than nothing. Depends on the country. Like here in Finland universities don't require stuff like that all since we are assumed to have a well rounded education before we go there. Andrast fucked around with this message at 19:08 on Sep 21, 2019 |
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Sep 21, 2019 19:06
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Why do we care what Karl Marx would think
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Sep 21, 2019 19:22
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Ol' Karl 'too swole' Marx posted:"Equal elementary education"? What idea lies behind these words? Is it believed that in present-day society (and it is only with this one has to deal) education can be equal for all classes? Or is it demanded that the upper classes also shall be compulsorily reduced to the modicum of education — the elementary school — that alone is compatible with the economic conditions not only of the wage-workers but of the peasants as well? Marx's opinion on schooling is extremely colored by the state of education in the 1800s and really isn't comparable to anything today.
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Sep 21, 2019 19:58
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When i said proletariat is a state of being i dont want to say yiu can just announce your a proletariart. But your person reflects your class. You can be proletariat own nothing and be very educated. You can also be bourgeoisie and have low education. One of my friends let a college student stay at house rent free for 3 years. the girl was constantly at the beauty shop etc but made dirt money. She is tje very definition of a bourgeoisie. Not because of her education but because of her mindset.
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Sep 21, 2019 21:22
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Hong Kong's government subsidized college education is pretty hard to get, only 1 in 4 applied can get in. So I think if you apply and received the subsidized higher education, you are pretty much a middle class (petty bourgie) because I can't think of any college major that's not designed for the middle class. If you are 3 of the 4 who fail to get in the good universities, you either paid more for a private university, which makes you a middle class, or skip higher education, which makes you a proletariat.
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Sep 21, 2019 21:53
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Bob le Moche posted:privilege and freedom *kramers into the thread*
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Sep 21, 2019 22:01
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Since when did petty bourgeoisie refer to the vauge term "middle class"? Marx class relations are based on relationship to capital and the means of production. Proletariat derives their living through selling their labor. Bourgeoisie derives their living though capital. Petty bourgeoisie mix both, living by labor and capital; or are sometimes a job that puts your interests aligned with capital (e.g. management). As such, how does being a lucky sap who gets an education make you a petty bourgeoisie, unless you were already one? Unless you think class is somehow based on income more than relationship.
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Sep 22, 2019 05:54
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Completing a college course doesn't immediately make you middle class, just look at how many people in Hong Kong still live with their parents
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Sep 22, 2019 10:03
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middle-class types having to live with their parents is entirely possible in as broken a housing market as that in hong kong, though. any analysis that discards anyone with higher education as lost to the revolution or w/e is necessarily going to run into some issues as higher education has become a mass phenomenon in increasing parts of the world. it really isn't the sure ticket to a stable life that it was thirty years ago. students have plenty of revolutionary potential under the right circumstances - the paris spring '68 revolution was betrayed by the workers who were bought off by the pompidou regime honestly, even if the hong kong protests are basically bourgeois they're protesting against a form of base despotism, and should be supported
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Sep 22, 2019 10:42
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If Marx is alive, he would reclassify HK and SF into landlord and landless classes, and also the land price setting capitalists. Since HK has lost all its industries except property speculation, there is no difference between lands and means of production.
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Sep 22, 2019 18:36
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tino posted:Since HK has lost all its industries except property speculation, there is no difference between lands and means of production. Did the seventh largest port of the world suddenly disappear?
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Sep 22, 2019 18:48
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Jeoh posted:Did the seventh largest port of the world suddenly disappear? It will, since shipping from Nansha, Guangzhou saves about $100 per container. Also owners of the HK port and HK lands are the same families so what different does it make?
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Sep 22, 2019 19:04
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