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OneSizeFitsAll posted:the rest of their fellow men and women. Just highlighting the obviously deliberate trans-exclusionary nature of this sentiment in case someone fancied joining the pile-in and can't think where to get started. 307, the number of dead poor people OneSizeFitsAll's kids step over on their way into school every day.
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Sep 23, 2019 16:12
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If you think about it we're all shareholders in our own happiness.
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Sep 23, 2019 16:13
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poo poo I've gone into administration.
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Sep 23, 2019 16:13
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AceClown posted:If you can afford to spend 60k a year (ballpark figure based on what I've read in the thread) to send your two children to a private school when a free state alternative exists while there are people loving starving and dying is why you're getting pigeonholed. Probably more 20k-30k a year for most private schools, only the really posh or boarding omes charge around 30k per year per pupil (from someone with a better understanding of private schools.
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Sep 23, 2019 16:15
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Nah, they need to go. I say as someone who was offered an assisted place in the 80's, but didn't take it up.
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Sep 23, 2019 16:16
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Nothingtoseehere posted:Probably more 20k-30k a year for most private schools, only the really posh or boarding omes charge around 30k per year per pupil (from someone with a better understanding of private schools. Merely the entire average household income
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Sep 23, 2019 16:16
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Nothingtoseehere posted:Probably more 20k-30k a year for most private schools, only the really posh or boarding omes charge around 30k per year per pupil (from someone with a better understanding of private schools. So "only around the average household disposable income" (housing is counted as disposable in that metric btw)
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Sep 23, 2019 16:16
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OneSizeFitsAll posted:So you slag me off for politely offering my view, misprepresent me, then when you're corrected this is your response? If only the left hadn't been mean to me, I have no choice but to vote for the neoliberal consensus 
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Sep 23, 2019 16:16
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Tesseraction posted:poo poo I've gone into administration. I've taken out Credit Default Swaps on Tess and now I'm rolling in it.
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Sep 23, 2019 16:16
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People who send their kids to private school don't vote labour, they vote conservative. If mr cannotreadaroom here is being genuine that he would never vote conservative then five gets you five and a penny he votes lib dem.
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Sep 23, 2019 16:16
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MrFlibble posted:People who send their kids to private school don't vote labour, they vote conservative. could also be the lovely kind of green
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Sep 23, 2019 16:17
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OK, I knew I would get piled on for this, but I simply can't reply to every post, especially the ones basically calling me a oval office because I dare to make the most of my fortunate position and invest in my children's education, rather than have them be miserable in my local very poo poo schools. I think there is a debate to be had and some of you have engaged in it, and even though you likely strongly disagree with me I thank you for doing that, rather than just slag me off or flagrantly misrepresent my views.
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Sep 23, 2019 16:18
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MrFlibble posted:he votes lib dem. Ding ding ding, we have a winner
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Sep 23, 2019 16:18
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Nothingtoseehere posted:I think the point that the power imbalance from private schools mostly comes from the top 10% poshness private schools (yes there's differences in poshness). To abolish all of them - and to burden the costs of teaching their pupils - over the excesses of the worse of them may be overreacting, and will be costly. Since they are run as non profits the high fees don't actually get siphoned off in profit, they get spent on new buildings and extra members of staff like a "debating coach". If you did nationalize them, and change their intake to local pupils bases om catchment area you'd probably move from rich parents paying for this school to getting to for free- unless you slashed the funding so they couldn't make use of their better facilities and staffs passion for stuff outside of the curriculum. It's not that class warfare is bad, but it's pretty blatent and I don't think would attack the seeds of privilege that effectively for the outrage - just abolish boarding schools instead and you achieve most of the class war on the upper classes without as costly a burden. I mean if it was me doing it I'd close them down, either keep their building as museums to the shittiness of the class system, or knock them down and build social housing on them, and redistribute their funding and their staff to the state education systems in the area. Keeping the whole concept of one school being wildly better than others in the area just makes the problem one of access to housing being the thing that costs obscene amounts of money, rather than access to the school itself. You can guarantee that if you forcibly acquired eton and made it a state school, the people who own it would (if they don't already own them) just buy all the buildings in the catchment area and make it into a default private school anyway. The problem doesn't get removed until the institutions as a whole no longer exist. Rarity posted:Ding ding ding, we have a winner No they explicitly said the didn't vote Tory. OneSizeFitsAll posted:because I dare to make the most of my fortunate position WHy do you believe you deserve it, as opposed to any of the hundreds of thousands of less fortunate people who don't have it? thespaceinvader fucked around with this message at 16:21 on Sep 23, 2019 |
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Sep 23, 2019 16:18
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Continuity RCP posted:could also be the lovely kind of green I was going to say "or some other joke party" but my gut says lib dem or no vote at all.
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Sep 23, 2019 16:19
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http://wondermark.com/c/2014-09-19-1062sea.png
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Sep 23, 2019 16:19
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OneSizeFitsAll posted:OK, I knew I would get piled on for this, but I simply can't reply to every post, especially the ones basically calling me a oval office because I dare to make the most of my fortunate position and invest in my children's education, rather than have them be miserable in my local very poo poo schools. Dude, you came into a thread that you knew was full of socialists, communists and anarchists and you attempted to defend education structures that reinforce hierarchical class divides. What did you think was gonna happen?
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Sep 23, 2019 16:20
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My boss went to Eton. I say bulldoze the fucker.
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Sep 23, 2019 16:20
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I don't know why everyone is always so angry about the giant feet first meat grinding machines. They get a terrible press from people who've either lost loved ones to them or have come out chewed up to the waist but I never experienced anything like that . Sure, it gets a bit mushy underfoot, but that's why we have Wellington boots and if you sing a happy song you can almost not quite hear the noise from the grinding and rending flesh, and the incessant screams. The solution isn't to get rid of the giant feet first grinding machines entirely, that just means state teachers get bigger class sizes and need to spend a portion of their day hacking off feet by hand. But I like to think I came out of there a better person, in that I came out of there at all, and you really can't put a price on that
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Sep 23, 2019 16:20
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Alan BStard posted:Thought I'd post something to lighten the mood. gently caress's sake, Chris Weston is a Fubpee? On the other foot, I at least get the chance to laugh at a Fubpee using Judge Dredd as his Twitter avatar.
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Sep 23, 2019 16:21
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bitterandtwisted posted:My boss went to Eton. I say bulldoze the fucker. And then get rid of Eton too
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Sep 23, 2019 16:21
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OneSizeFitsAll posted:OK, I knew I would get piled on for this, but I simply can't reply to every post, especially the ones basically calling me a oval office because I dare to make the most of my fortunate position and invest in my children's education, rather than have them be miserable in my local very poo poo schools. It's not that you send your kids there; if in a certain position I might do the same as we all have to do the best we can in the society we live in. It's your utterly ludicrous assertion that private schools are in some way an innate good, and that their existence is a net benefit to state education and indeed to society as a whole.
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Sep 23, 2019 16:21
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OneSizeFitsAll posted:OK, I knew I would get piled on for this, but I simply can't reply to every post, especially the ones basically calling me a oval office because I dare to make the most of my fortunate position and invest in my children's education, rather than have them be miserable in my local very poo poo schools. Like I said earlier, I can understand why people support the private school system right now. I'd just argue that in a world where Labour abolish private school, they would be making it so every school is as nice as a private one. Perhaps nicer.
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Sep 23, 2019 16:22
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Rarity posted:Dude, you came into a thread that you knew was full of socialists, communists and anarchists and you attempted to defend education structures that reinforce hierarchical class divides. What did you think was gonna happen? Respectful, good faith discussion? Very naive, I now realise. I am probably on the same page as most of you on most issues, so that probably coloured my expectations.
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Sep 23, 2019 16:23
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thespaceinvader posted:I mean if it was me doing it I'd close them down, either keep their building as museums to the shittiness of the class system, or knock them down and build social housing on them, and redistribute their funding and their staff to the state education systems in the area. You could make them special schools for troubled but bright children. You do have a point though. I have heard talk in posho circles that if the private schools where outlawed in this country they would just relocate them to a friendly country.
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Sep 23, 2019 16:23
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OneSizeFitsAll posted:OK, I knew I would get piled on for this, but I simply can't reply to every post, especially the ones basically calling me a oval office because I dare to make the most of my fortunate position and invest in my children's education, rather than have them be miserable in my local very poo poo schools. Nobody here said it wasn't understandable that you might want the best for your kids and that right now that meant putting hem into private school. We all here understand it. What we also all here understand is that only the richest can afford to do so and the quality of your education should not be set by your families money, plus segregating the richest from the rest of society for their formative years is super bad. We want rid of private schools because they're bad for social cohesion and their existence damages willingness to pump more funds into state schooling. Diane Abbott's kids went to private school IIRC, we do all understand wanting to take advantage of the potential benefit if it's there, were all arguing that benefit shouldn't be there.
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Sep 23, 2019 16:23
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JeremoudCorbynejad posted:And then get rid of Eton too 
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Sep 23, 2019 16:23
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mehall posted:So "only around the average household disposable income" (housing is counted as disposable in that metric btw) Oh yea, in my experience only people on really high paying jobs in london or couples both earning top 10% bracket incomes could afford to pay for private school in the first place. I swear I've seen moaning in the guardian about the rocketing price of private school since provincial wage earners are being priced out, but not exactly weeping. And the majority certainly will vote Tory or lib dem, but a minority of rich Blairites who Labour also sent their kids.
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Sep 23, 2019 16:24
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OneSizeFitsAll posted:Genuinely sorry for those that went to private school and had a bad time. Counterpoint (and I post this with slight wariness of being dogpiled but want to air my view): I went to one and really enjoyed my years there. While it certainly instilled confidence and a sense that I could shoot high, I don't recognise this "automatic right to be above the proles" thing. In addition, both my kids are in private schools and they love them. My very academic daughter in particular adores hers and how much she is stretched. She would be having a vastly worse time in any of our local states, and I consider her school fees a no-brainer. Both my kids are receiving a superb, broad education which includes instilling them with excellent values towards life and other people of any social background. I am going to be very generous here and not just bite your head off. Which I will warn you is against my instincts so I might slip, I guess because my povvo school never instilled me with excellent values towards people of other social backgrounds. I don't doubt you enjoyed your time at a private school and I'm sure your sprogs do too. If I was a parent and I could afford to send my kids to private school (or they could get a scholarship) I would at least consider it too, because the advantages are significant. I don't know if my school had ever actually sent someone to Oxbridge, certainly none during the 6 years I attended. It's not that applying was discouraged exactly, it just wasn't a consideration that anyone would bother. And at least 3 of those years before there were differences in tuition costs between England & Scotland. Today, certainly, it's a no-brainer for a Scot to go to a Scottish university because you're saving yourself a whole lot of tuition debt. Not so much in 1996. So I at least understand the inclination. I also accept that not every school is an Eton or Westminster or one of those public schools. But. Firstly "it's terribly illiberal" is not an argument that will hold any sway in a thread which generally holds most elements of liberalism in contempt. Something being illiberal is at worst value-neutral and it probably a net-positive. As for the money argument, don't you think that if little Tarquin & Gideon had to go to the same school as Mohammad & Jim that the parents of Tarquin & Gideon would suddenly feel a whole lot less pissy about paying the requisite tax to actually support a fully comprehensive public school system? See, that's the benefit of a universal system, people get angry about taxes when they don't benefit from it and if everyone benefits then suddenly there's only the weirdo libertarians gurning away. But it's simpler than that. Private schools certainly aren't the sole cause of inequality in this country but they don't help, at all. The kids of the wealthy get to make contacts with each other, the same for the kids of the middle classes going to your lesser private schools just so they can say they sent their darling to the special school in case minimum wage jobs are contagious. My poor comprehensive brain has seized up right now and so I can't remember where I read a breakdown of the percentages of private school graduates in various professions but the gist is the high paying & prestigious professions have an absurd over-representation of the privately educated (I found it, by the Sutton Trust. 7% of the populace privately educated, 65% of senior judges, 52% of diplomats, 44% of news columnists which is a special lol, 20% of popstars, 16% of university vice chancellors, look at the acting profession, at where so many of our most famous actors attended school). Sorry for your sprogs but that level of inequality is intolerable when it's proven time & time again that a more equality society is a happier society. Oh yeah, and that people not starving to death is good.
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Sep 23, 2019 16:24
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Rarity posted:Dude, you came into a thread that you knew was full of socialists, communists and anarchists and you attempted to defend education structures that reinforce hierarchical class divides. What did you think was gonna happen? Who are you calling a socialist?
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Sep 23, 2019 16:25
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bitterandtwisted posted:They bussed in substitute teachers from elsewhere for the pupils doing highers, but not adv higher as there were so few of us. We tried to muddle through as best we could but we only had a vague overview of the syllabus and there wasn't much in the way of online resources back then. There's an attitude that I have encountered many times, including amongst teachers, that brainy kids can self-motivate and fend for themselves. As someone who found school quite easy but was essentially lazy, I could have done with something to stretch me and an rear end-kicking teacher to keep me at it instead of doing the set work in about 1/10th the time most of the kids did and being hopelessly bored the rest of the time. I went to several different secondary schools including a mixed grammar, a girls' comprehensive for military kids abroad, a 'direct grant' (which the county paid for because there was no other A-level provision in the county and very few kids did 6th form back then), and, for a year as a 10 year old, a fee-paying school which I had passed an exam for that got me that year free and which I hated, the youngest in the year by a year because I passed the exam when I was 9 and was bullied, had to live with a relative to go to and when I took the exam to get another free year there tore up my paper 5 mins before the end. I was a boarder for a couple of terms at the military kids' school when dad got a posting without accommodation and again when dad left the military but parents had nowhere to live so were camping with my nan and younger siblings until they found somewhere. (What DO kids study in year 6 because I skipped that whole year and don't seem to have missed anything!) Also in my school jumping, I started doing tech drawing O-level at one school - and was second in the class (top of the class had a draughtsman father) moved to a girls' school that didn't offer it and was supposed to sit at the back of the CSE Art class and do tech drawing on my own with no teacher. That worked... NOT. Am ambivalent about paying schools as educational delivery units: I went to one for a bit (albeit fee free) and hated it. Some of my nephews and nieces have been and essentially pissed thousands of pounds of parental and grand-parental cash up the wall without going into more detail! Some kids blossom in them (which probably says more about the need for state schools to provide for very introverted kids / bright kids) and others flail. Jaeluni Asjil fucked around with this message at 16:31 on Sep 23, 2019 |
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Sep 23, 2019 16:25
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Sanford posted:Our business recently rolled out private health insurance and "you're helping the NHS!" was presented as an absolute positive benefit at all times. A lot of people really don't care to look past a really superficial understanding of a topic and I genuinely believe this thread is one of the best antidotes to such thought patterns. If you don't realise you are talking poo poo yourself, plenty of people will point it out! Urrgh. "What is universalism? What is pooling of risk?" Yeah this thread's pretty great for helping people see past the obvious but wrong answer - like a socialist QI, but good!
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Sep 23, 2019 16:25
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Collateral posted:Who are you calling a socialist? [one of those cartoon dust-cloud punch-ups but with a bunch of hammer'n'sickles and anarchist symbols flying out at random intervals]
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Sep 23, 2019 16:27
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OneSizeFitsAll posted:Of course you can. That some kids' families can afford private school is not fair, but it does not preclude more money being invested into state schools or running them better. Indeed, as I have argued, moving all the current private school pupils into the state sector would put a bigger strain on it, as well as crowd people out of the best schools. except it does the rich don't give a gently caress that state schools are lovely all over the country because it doesn't affect them and their spawn, so nothing is done to improve them if little Hugo and Milly suddenly had to rock up to their local state academy you can bet that said academy's funding woes would vanish right quick efb by Forkboy and with better posho child names too 
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Sep 23, 2019 16:27
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bitterandtwisted posted:Force all MPs to send their kids to the worst performing state school in their constituency I have a lot of sympathy with this view. Also, they must use NHS services and must use public transport to get to and from everywhere (with the possible exception of those representing highlands / isles Scottish constituencies - let them travel by the Golden Duck or whatever the cheapest airline is).
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Sep 23, 2019 16:28
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OneSizeFitsAll posted:Maybe because you, like others, have a propensity to pigeon-hole people with different views and perspectives. Looking at the things in their post: I have never and would never vote Tory; I pay all my tax due; I think Brexit is a staggeringly stupid act. just think, if private schools didn't exist people wouldn't have to scrimp and save in order to give their kids the best education possible, it would be provided freely by decent state investment. i know it's trite at this point but loving hell just look at finland
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Sep 23, 2019 16:28
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OneSizeFitsAll posted:Respectful, good faith discussion? Very naive, I now realise. I am probably on the same page as most of you on most issues, so that probably coloured my expectations. Oh are we pulling out the decorum card now? gently caress off. If you want a debate club why don't you go to your kids school.
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Sep 23, 2019 16:29
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I know this is a couple pages back so I apologize if the conversation has moved on, but it's loving staggering to me that there are still gendered schools in the UK. As far as I remember, and I checked with other people too, the last gendered private school (of course it would be a private school for the rich, who held onto something like this) dropped the idea in the 80s, here in Denmark.
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Sep 23, 2019 16:29
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anyone who sends their kids to private school obviously thinks they're not good enough to excel in a state comp
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Sep 23, 2019 16:30
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Tesseraction posted:Like I said earlier, I can understand why people support the private school system right now. I'd just argue that in a world where Labour abolish private school, they would be making it so every school is as nice as a private one. Perhaps nicer. You'd have to at least double the education budget for that - state schools get around 6k per student, private schools charge between 10k-35k depending on area and poshness. Not that it's a bad thing per say, but it's pretty hard to do, even ignoring the educational benefit of " the school actually has an ability to get rid of disruptive children and very few to begin with", a bigger benefit than the budget (and the reason many of the best state schools do well)
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Sep 23, 2019 16:30
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