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I just moved to a new city, am currently unemployed, and I've just received two offers back to back. One is for Company A, and is for what I was making at my last job. Company A looks like a good place to work. Company B offered me 30% more than Company A, but the commute is awful, and it doesn't look like a good place to work. If I want Company A to pay what Company B offered (or at least MORE than they initially offered), should I tell them that I have another offer in hand and would like them to meet it? Or should I just ask for that amount without mentioning Company B at all?
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Sep 25, 2019 22:52
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| # ? May 16, 2024 13:28 |
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"I'd love to join your team, but I've received a significantly better offer. Is there anything more you can do to make this work?" FWIW I vehemently hate long commutes and would take lower compensation to avoid one. But if the difference is 30% and Company A holds firm then I'd probably bite the bullet and go with Company B, intending to move on within about 18-24 months. If Company A comes up to make it more like a 15% difference, I'd probably take that to avoid the commute, all else being equal. That's me; everyone has their own valuations of the various factors involved in a job. Just whatever you do don't TELL Company A you'd take less than Company B's offer. In fact it's best to tell them a number HIGHER than Company B's offer is what you want. Give them the opportunity to offer you more than the minimum you'd accept--while still feeling like they got a concession from you! Eric the Mauve fucked around with this message at 23:10 on Sep 25, 2019 |
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Sep 25, 2019 23:05
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Thank you—that makes sense. When I tell them about the other offer, I’ll beef my ask up a bit. Now if only Company C I interviewed with today would make an offer soon...
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Sep 26, 2019 00:32
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Take the job with company B and then find another job.
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Sep 26, 2019 00:39
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Zauper posted:Huh? 409A assessment is an audit that determines the fair value of your common stock. Assuming the $1 and $0.10 figures are apples-to-apples (i.e., both figures relate to the same share class), yeah, something sounds off. A recent arms-length transaction would be one of the factors considered in a 409A valuation. If an investor is buying shares for a buck a piece you shouldn't be granting options covering such shares with a strike price of $0.10 a piece, that's a huge gulf in valuation (assuming, again, we're talking about the same class of equity and a 10x difference in valuation). Maybe if that investment round was awhile back and the company has bled a ton of value since then? You are probably fine, personally, since your company did the right thing and had a 409A valuation conducted, which provides a safe harbor. In the case of an IRS audit, that safe harbor puts the burden on the government to show that any options were granted below FMV. However, the whole point of the rule is to prevent companies from issuing juiced options. If I happened to be reviewing the financials for Company X and I saw options issued at a $0.10 strike price just after a $1 a share equity buy I would consider that a red flag. The tax penalties are extremely stiff for violations.
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Sep 26, 2019 02:14
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Vox Nihili posted:Assuming the $1 and $0.10 figures are apples-to-apples (i.e., both figures relate to the same share class), yeah, something sounds off. A recent arms-length transaction would be one of the factors considered in a 409A valuation. If an investor is buying shares for a buck a piece you shouldn't be granting options covering such shares with a strike price of $0.10 a piece, that's a huge gulf in valuation (assuming, again, we're talking about the same class of equity and a 10x difference in valuation). Maybe if that investment round was awhile back and the company has bled a ton of value since then? Pretty much every startup (I started about 6 months post Series A) is going to have different share classes for investors and employees. Obviously the investors have preferred shares while we have common stock, so the share classes are off. They don't have a valuation threshold, but they do have liquidation preference/etc. There will always be a gap -- often sizable -- between what the preferred is purchased at and what the common is valued at. If the company is successful (lotto ticket pays out), then the preferred nature of that class won't make a difference on the value of the common stock. If you fail / aren't as successful, then the common stock will get squeezed first / completely and the lotto ticket will die like most lotto tickets do. At my last employer, the investor had a valuation threshhold that largely guaranteed them a 2-3x return, so they sucked up most of the value gain of the company. I've been here for four years; we've done 5 409A audits with two different providers. Our Series B was at ~3x the value of the A and the 409A audit afterwards put the common stock at... $0.70ish? I don't remember exactly.
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Sep 26, 2019 02:52
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Yeah, I wouldn't worry about it too much in your circumstances, but the concern would be if an investor buys in at a valuation that puts the total company at let's say $100m and the company gets a 409A valuation a month later at let's say $10m for the entire company, then the company issues options with a strike price tied to the $10m valuation despite knowing that the number is fucky. That's probably not what happened in your case, but it's something that an auditor might raise an eyebrow at. Even then, I imagine with small start-ups, valuations done in completely good faith can vary wildly from month to month and methodology to methodology. I've only seen actual issues arise in the absence of a proper, independent 409A valuation in any case (or where a 409A valuation is relied upon beyond the 12-month safe harbor). Vox Nihili fucked around with this message at 03:38 on Sep 26, 2019 |
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Sep 26, 2019 03:35
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Vox Nihili posted:Yeah, I wouldn't worry about it too much in your circumstances, but the concern would be if an investor buys in at a valuation that puts the total company at let's say $100m and the company gets a 409A valuation a month later at let's say $10m for the entire company, then the company issues options with a strike price tied to the $10m valuation despite knowing that the number is fucky. That's probably not what happened in your case, but it's something that an auditor might raise an eyebrow at. Even then, I imagine with small start-ups, valuations done in completely good faith can vary wildly from month to month and methodology to methodology. Offhand, I want to say the B was 70 post (~15x revenue?) and the immediately after 409A valued it around 20 (95%+ revenue is from two product lines each traditionally valued at 2-3x revenue; this is roughly 5x). That was also from a strategic that got a somewhat preferred partnership out of it, so I'm sure that factored in. The A was around 25 post with the assessment at 3ish? From a traditional investor there; revenue was maybe 1m, all from a 2-3x multiple product. So methodology could make a big difference here. Since we aren't pre revenue, there are comparisons you can make to how similar companies are priced at acquisition / etc. However, common stock is always discounted, usually severely, vs preferred stock.
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Sep 26, 2019 03:47
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I just sent my counter letter to Company 2, countering their $135k with my $148k + $10k signing bonus. Company 1 has me scheduled for a call with a different hiring manager at 12:30pm today because the req got approved but for a different team  . I'm leaving the door open for them because as a larger company I know this shitshow is not uncommon but the amount of money they have to pay me goes up for each bit of bullshit that keeps getting put in front of me. I'm legit cheering for Company 2 to come through with my counter at this point.
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Sep 26, 2019 15:25
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It sounds like there is one hell of a civil war in progress upstairs at Company 1.
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Sep 26, 2019 15:45
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Eric the Mauve posted:It sounds like there is one hell of a civil war in progress upstairs at Company 1.
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Sep 26, 2019 15:47
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So I had a phone screening last Tuesday with the hiring manager. She expressed interest in moving forward and wanted to set up an onsite for this week, she said the HR person would reach out to set that up. I haven't heard anything since, I sent an email this Monday asking the HR person about it but have received no response. Is there anything else I should do or am I just stuck waiting?
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Sep 26, 2019 16:33
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HR gonna HR
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Sep 26, 2019 16:36
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bamhand posted:So I had a phone screening last Tuesday with the hiring manager. She expressed interest in moving forward and wanted to set up an onsite for this week, she said the HR person would reach out to set that up. I haven't heard anything since, I sent an email this Monday asking the HR person about it but have received no response. Is there anything else I should do or am I just stuck waiting?
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Sep 26, 2019 16:37
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So I had HR from another company tell me they're initiating a credit check, so I assume that means an offer is forthcoming. I notified the HR contact I had mentioned in the previous post and she said that the hiring manager still doesn't have anyone she wants to bring onsite. So I guess she changed her mind? She definitely was talking about bringing me in on the phone last week. Meanwhile this third company said feedback from my interview was extremely positive but they're still interviewing candidates and don't know when they will have a decision. Feel like there's so many layers of BS to cut through and all this waiting suuuucks.
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Sep 26, 2019 22:00
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bamhand posted:So I had HR from another company tell me they're initiating a credit check, so I assume that means an offer is forthcoming.
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Sep 26, 2019 22:09
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Makes me break out in hives, erratic heart beat, and head aches. So how's your stuff going? Sounds like you'll end up at company 2? The company that's giving me an offer I like a lot, but I'm worried it will come in low. She told me the role typically pays around 100 and I said I'm looking for 130. She said she'll relay that information but emphasized that the company is smaller and has better benefits in exchange for lower salary, especially compared to my current consulting gig.
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Sep 26, 2019 22:14
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lol at a smaller company offering better benefits
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Sep 26, 2019 22:22
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Eric the Mauve posted:lol at a smaller company offering better benefits My company got bought out by a bigger company and our benefits got worse, it can always happen!
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Sep 26, 2019 22:25
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By smaller I mean a credit union managing 100b in assets instead of a bank managing 2t. Their leave etc is better than other places I've worked at and the two people I know who work there both say it's quite nice.
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Sep 26, 2019 22:26
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bamhand posted:Makes me break out in hives, erratic heart beat, and head aches. In a surprise twist, my boss here at Company 0 said that he spoke to boss^2 and there's rumblings now that I'll receive a guarantee on a promotion and pay increase here at Company 0, so Company 0 is back in the running if they can pay me the most money. We'll see how likely that is but who knows, it's Thunderdome. While it's entirely possible they fire me after 6 months, doing so would result in my boss quitting as well, and he's in charge of a huge chunk of our dev group so that'd frankly be worth the drama it causes. I can also just take that unemployment check while I call up Company 1 and tell them I'm suddenly very interested in their offer. There's not a lot of bad outcomes for me at the moment.
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Sep 26, 2019 22:47
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bamhand posted:By smaller I mean a credit union managing 100b in assets instead of a bank managing 2t. Their leave etc is better than other places I've worked at and the two people I know who work there both say it's quite nice. Ah, that makes sense. That DOES sound much better. Hoodwinker: Feels great to have companies competing for you, doesn't it?
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Sep 26, 2019 23:02
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Eric the Mauve posted:Ah, that makes sense. That DOES sound much better.
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Sep 26, 2019 23:05
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Eric the Mauve posted:lol at a smaller company offering better benefits
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Sep 27, 2019 04:25
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What's the deal with unlimited vacation? It's obviously not unlimited, they aren't paying you to be on vacation permanently. It just feels loving lovely to read that as a policy
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Sep 27, 2019 04:39
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Goodpancakes posted:What's the deal with unlimited vacation? It's obviously not unlimited, they aren't paying you to be on vacation permanently. It just feels loving lovely to read that as a policy At a good company it means you don't get a vacation day payout when you leave, so the company isn't carrying that liability on its sheets. At a bad company, it's a way to pressure employees into taking less vacation than they'd demand in a normal accrual framework. Most companies that do it are in the latter bucket.
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Sep 27, 2019 04:45
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Goodpancakes posted:What's the deal with unlimited vacation? It's obviously not unlimited, they aren't paying you to be on vacation permanently. It just feels loving lovely to read that as a policy
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Sep 27, 2019 04:45
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If you’re given unlimited leave and don’t consume more than the standard amount what are you doing
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Sep 27, 2019 05:08
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Vegetable posted:If you’re given unlimited leave and don’t consume more than the standard amount what are you doing Just started a new job with unlimited, I‘d been there for 1 month and then left for 2 weeks. I think I’m doing this right?
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Sep 27, 2019 05:13
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fourwood posted:Just started a new job with unlimited, I‘d been there for 1 month and then left for 2 weeks. I think I’m doing this right? Only if you take two weeks next month, too.
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Sep 27, 2019 06:02
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Goodpancakes posted:What's the deal with unlimited vacation? I'm happy being paid less if it means I can go on a couple months' vacation a year. Being a teacher really anchored my expectations re: lots and lots of vacation, gently caress the American norm.
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Sep 27, 2019 06:26
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How much does your non-compete pay? I certainly know folks who have enjoyed their gardening leave - what's best for your career is probably to call their bluff, as Mr Eisenhower suggests. Edit sorry this was 50 posts ago, way late
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Sep 27, 2019 07:50
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Hello thread, have a success story. I recently got offered a dream job as a production editor in the comics industry. Despite my excitement, I didn’t immediately leap on with a yes. I did my research. Then I politely counteroffered 137% of their initial offer. They accepted without even haggling back.  Don’t ever not negotiate.
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Sep 27, 2019 09:29
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Potential success story - Think I'll end up about $123 + $12.5 Bonus vs. an RV of ~$115 + $10 and chopping my commute from 50min to 25min. Big positive lesson learned was to be mindful of other benefits (I asked for signing bonus, they didn't offer it). A negative learned was that I misinterpreted how far in negotiations we were, so I probably gave up a couple G's by being soft when I thought we were near the end, but really weren't. I also felt better coming to terms with knowing I had to trade some compensation for intangibles, like moving into a new role I've been stalled out of for a few years and significantly shortening my commute. [Although it is still hard to see the tech salaries Boston and not salivate, but I have a house and a family and doing 50 minutes each way now is killing me, I can't imagine over 1 hr] The story - Hiring Manager called and I stalled until she said they were thinking $110-$115k. I noted there was a little distance there, and in the context of total compensation asked if there could be a signing bonus and what the the yearly bonus is. She said they could do a signing bonus in the range of $5-10k, and yearly bonus can be up to 15% but averages around 8% [I get about 3-4% now]. I don't commit but end the call nicely with an ask for HR to send me the benefits package. She is very nice and says "I'm sure you and HR will go back and forth a couple times but when you are close on an offer we will talk again" - basically making me feel good about negotiating here. I see the benefits are about the same and I figure I'm just about at my RV but a little ways from true market, so I counter with $129 + $15 to hopefully just get some extra gravy around $125 + $12.5. My data came from: Glassdoor - Industry #'s, No specific data on this title at this company Current company Internal Offer - Lateral with a big fat 0% raise, 3% bonus, 55 min commute, stale growth - but they'd offer about $118 + $10 for an off-the-street hire Local company - Offered me $115 + $10, turned down because 8min commute and low pay didn't offset the company being a bit of a mess Boston - Knowing that if I commuted 75 minutes I could easily get $130+$$. I'd never commute into the city, but they don't know that and a lot of people do it. Another local-ish company - Glassdoor says close to ~$130 + $10, but I have been rejected by them for similar roles all year, so I feel I need the experience here first. HR calls back with approval for $120 + $10, acknowledges it is far from $129 + $15, but wants to know my thoughts. Here was a mistake I made - I counted my initial counter as really being against the $115 + $10, so I interpret HR's offer as being pretty tight and as they are above my RV, I feel I need to push gently. Therefore, I ask for more money in the bonus figuring they'd be more flexible there. Thank god it signals I'm pushing back, because HR said he'd ask for more in the bonus and said he'd try to up the base a bit as well....Oops - my bad for not pushing harder there. So - I'm thinking I'll end up a couple G's higher than $120 and at least no worse than $10 in the bonus. So overall I credit just applying and negotiating with getting me like a 14% raise and being able to take the next step in my career!
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Sep 27, 2019 14:09
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moana posted:I've worked with 2 companies <10 employees, both gave unlimited vacation and flexible hours, 401k matching, reimbursements. Small companies rule. shockingly the size of the company is not a reliable indicator of the benefits package, work culture, etc
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Sep 27, 2019 14:27
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I went from a small company with the lovely kind of unlimited vacation, no matching (and poo poo options), and poo poo health benefits to a megacorp that's better in every single category. For example, I just had a surgery that completely blew through my max oop expense on a hdhp, and if I was still with my old company I still wouldn't have even hit my deductible. +1 for megacorps.
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Sep 27, 2019 14:33
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I just had an interview where the salary range for the position was given to me without any prompting. It matches what I’ve read and is above what I make now (different kind of position). Felt really weird to be honest.
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Sep 27, 2019 14:36
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silvergoose posted:At a good company it means you don't get a vacation day payout when you leave, so the company isn't carrying that liability on its sheets. I work at a place that has unlimited vacation. They track PTO and give reports to managers for people who have -not- taken time off in a while or not taken enough PTO. It's included in managerial reviews as well. They started doing this after a year of unlimited pto data showed a drop in vacation time, which was not the intent. if you look into the details of an unlimited setup, you can see what they're up to.
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Sep 27, 2019 17:35
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:Consulting bonuses tend to be a bit more reliable than industry bonuses in my experience and discussions with people on both sides of that line, so I wouldn't value a 14-28% industry bonus the same way I would value a 14-28% consulting bonus. You should always discount all bonuses, but I think the discount rate for industry should be a lot higher than the discount rate for consulting. Got some more info from an employee. Apparently it's around 14% bonus if you perform at level and goes up from there. Compared to my 5% for the same performance at my current role (big 4 consulting) seems like they're way better. Also having my bonus based on utilization is not an insignificant factor in me wanting to leave. I wasn't billable for the first two months I was at the company, apparently that is my fault and a reflection on my performance despite good reviews from all of my managers.
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Sep 27, 2019 19:16
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not being billable is your fault though, you're supposed to move heaven and earth to get billable the thing that you're ignoring is a) criteria for achieving at level and the likelihood of getting grade at level and b) the risk factor that your company just decides to not pay out bonuses at all. risk factor b is virtually nonexistent in consulting. edit: your bonus at new job is just as likely (if not more!) to be based on absolutely ridiculous measures that are out of your control.
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Sep 27, 2019 19:22
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