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sebmojo posted:Maybe physically competent is a better way to put it? He's an interesting character that way - he's objectively an excellent lancer as long as he's not having to confront real-life people who want to kill him. He brags about being one of the best "tent-peggers" in the regiments he served in. He also rarely loses swordfights, even though he's usually begging for his life in the middle of them. Add to that the fact that he learns languages effortlessly, and he's almost a Mary Sue except for his terrible personality. I've never been sure if that's because Fraser secretly really likes him (a la the argument that there's no such thing as an anti-war movie that was earlier in the thread) or if he's supposed to represent all of the virtues of a typical pulp action hero to keep up the idea that if you don't know what's going on in his head he's a prototypical Victorian Colonial hero.
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Sep 25, 2019 19:27
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I remember reading an old Fraser interview where he said that Flashman's thoughts are his thoughts. Hopefully he did not mean that 100% literally.
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Sep 26, 2019 22:41
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The linguistic thing is just a good bit of development, because right from the start Flashman is going all over the world and it would be tedious and/or awkward if everything was done through interpreters or Tanto-level dialogue. And while he's an above average soldier in several respects, he definitely encounters people who outclass him as shots or swordsmen.
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Sep 26, 2019 23:17
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zhuge liang posted:I remember reading an old Fraser interview where he said that Flashman's thoughts are his thoughts. Hopefully he did not mean that 100% literally. I have bad news about his views later in his life
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Sep 27, 2019 21:11
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Oh yeah, I know he turned into a crusty old reactionary. I was thinking more in terms of Flashman dropping slurs.
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Sep 28, 2019 01:35
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I never thought Flashman being omni-competent was particularly unrealistic. Dudes of his class in those days tended to be - this was the era when bored vicars were progressing science on their lunch breaks and random gardeners were inventing fruits and pioneering architecture. Some dude with the very best of education, perfect physical health and no job to go to is gonna be a Swiss Army knife of random bullshit skills.
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Sep 28, 2019 17:02
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Disgusting Coward posted:I never thought Flashman being omni-competent was particularly unrealistic. Dudes of his class in those days tended to be - this was the era when bored vicars were progressing science on their lunch breaks and random gardeners were inventing fruits and pioneering architecture. Some dude with the very best of education, perfect physical health and no job to go to is gonna be a Swiss Army knife of random bullshit skills. Plus it's part of the satire. Flashman is the Victorian ideal in practice.
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Sep 28, 2019 17:31
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I don't know that Flashman is "omni-competent" - while he has a lot of skills, he's also bad at a lot of stuff. He repeatedly notes that he's a "strong swordsman, rather than a good one", and he loses whenever he goes up against a good swordsman. He's deeply ignorant of politics and art, and he's got no real skill for commanding troops (which is a pretty big fault in a soldier. I think it's also notable that Fraser goes out of his way to show us that Flashman works hard to develop the skills that he thinks will be useful - studying languages in his free time, seeking out proper sword training, getting someone to teach him how to be a good lancer, and so forth. Flashman clearly enjoys learning - there's a line of his that goes something like "time spent watching men who are good at their work is never wasted" - it's just that he's not interested in learning about anything he doesn't care about.
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Sep 28, 2019 18:49
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This is all fascinating because I know Flashman mostly secondhand - through comparison to the Ciaphas Cain WH40k books, which are the only ones I've been able to really sink my teeth into. Of course in those books the situation is somewhat reversed, Cain being in a normally loathed role (a political commissar in the space empire's army) and lacking Flashman's exciting opinions about ethnic groups.
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Sep 29, 2019 10:46
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I was disappointed in the Ciaphas Cain books because CC isn’t a massive dick to everyone he meets like Flashman is, and that’s part of what makes the character work. CC is as far as I can tell from the books quite a nice person (who has a feared position of authority). Flashman...isn’t.
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Sep 29, 2019 14:55
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Beefeater1980 posted:I was disappointed in the Ciaphas Cain books because CC isn’t a massive dick to everyone he meets like Flashman is, and that’s part of what makes the character work. CC is as far as I can tell from the books quite a nice person (who has a feared position of authority). Flashman...isn’t. Cain isn't Flashman. He's a hero with rock-bottom self-esteem because his brand of heroism isn't appreciated or celebrated by the bizarre, monstrous empire he works for.
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Sep 29, 2019 15:02
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You just know that there would be thousands of planets in the Imperium where people consider being gay a surefire sign of chaos. Like 40k dudes are basically universally portrayed as HARD BUT FAIR and that's kinda eh.
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Sep 29, 2019 15:43
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aphid_licker posted:You just know that there would be thousands of planets in the Imperium where people consider being gay a surefire sign of chaos. Like 40k dudes are basically universally portrayed as HARD BUT FAIR and that's kinda eh. TBH Hard and Fair sounds gay as hell.
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Sep 29, 2019 15:44
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Beefeater1980 posted:TBH Hard and Fair sounds gay as hell. In my library I have a collection of anecdotes from a sailor who served on torpedo boats in WW2. it's called "Hot, straight, and true." Which is good if you're trying to sink ships, but makes for a romantic tragedy on shore leave.
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Sep 29, 2019 17:18
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Nessus posted:lacking Flashman's exciting opinions about ethnic groups. Flashman is actually very liberal by the standards of his time in that respect. 'They're savages but I respect them and so are we sometimes' is hippy as gently caress for 1845. The people with exciting opinions at the time literally thought black people were monkeys not humans. Like even when GMF started writing in the 60s, Flashman's views were probably I dunno kind of centrist for a white Britiish guy of the time? By the time he died in 2008, uh not so much. feedmegin fucked around with this message at 22:47 on Sep 30, 2019 |
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Sep 30, 2019 22:41
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One of the last things the dude wrote before dying was some real old man stuff in the Daily Mail where he bitched about PC culture.
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Oct 1, 2019 06:35
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The guy who wrote Das Boot stopped making stuff for public consumption at I think 65 and that seems like a good policy.
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Oct 1, 2019 14:38
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Grendel posted:I don't know that Flashman is "omni-competent" - while he has a lot of skills, he's also bad at a lot of stuff. He repeatedly notes that he's a "strong swordsman, rather than a good one", and he loses whenever he goes up against a good swordsman. He's deeply ignorant of politics and art, and he's got no real skill for commanding troops (which is a pretty big fault in a soldier. I think for that you have to look at what Flashman is satirizing, ie Tom Brown's Schooldays and furthermore the sort of Schoolboy Pastorals that would have been popular at the time when Frasier would have been younger- Orwell has a fantastic essay on the pulp weekly stuff in which he asserts that boys in these stories have very soldierly virtues being held up: physically active, loyal, submissive to authority, patriotism etcetera. Which as mentioned early on, ends up getting Scud a knife in the back in some pointless battle in India. Flashman, as a product of this same schooling system, has picked up how to falsify these virtues, but he's also picked up some of the drawbacks to the system (lack of curiosity about the arts, tendency to flaunt authority as something perfectly natural, lack of egalitarianism and most tellingly: using imperialism as a first choice in advancing his rank).
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Oct 6, 2019 02:21
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I just learned that there's a series of "Thomas Flashman" books that are exactly the same idea but in Georgian times so they can cash in on the Napoleonic Wars. Has anybody heard of these? Are they any good?
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Oct 17, 2019 23:48
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Notahippie posted:I just learned that there's a series of "Thomas Flashman" books that are exactly the same idea but in Georgian times so they can cash in on the Napoleonic Wars. Has anybody heard of these? Are they any good? Huh, I never heard of those. Interesting. I blew the dust off my Kindle and downloaded the first one, and I was cringing within five pages. It's barely fanfiction-level writing, and has never passed within sight of a professional editor, let alone a copy editor. And Brightwell has none of Fraser's humor, eye for detail and characterization, ability to turn a phrase, or, well, anything. It's not even interestingly bad, just blah. Here's pseudo-Flashman showing his talent as a ladies' man, for instance: quote:“Why do you want to know how our brother George is doing in the dragoons?” asked Sarah Berkeley coyly before sharing a conspiratorial glance with her older sister, Louisa, sitting on the other side of the drawing room. “Are you thinking of joining the Army too?” I feel no impulse to read further, but who knows, maybe he improves. Selachian fucked around with this message at 01:48 on Oct 18, 2019 |
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Oct 18, 2019 01:40
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That’s shockingly bad. As in, “I have read Chinese LitRPGs that read better” badly written. (Yes I went down a LitRPG rabbit hole and that’s why I’m not updating. There’s so much and it’s mostly so awful and every protagonist is trying to be Flashman and failing).
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Oct 18, 2019 04:41
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From the handful of LitRPG/Cultivation stuff I've looked at, I've always wondered how much of the awfulness is a product of amateur translation. Because you're right, they're garbage.
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Oct 18, 2019 10:21
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What's LitRPG in this context? Is this related to how China has banned a lot of highly specific time travel/ghost stuff which was initially parsed as "you can't even indirectly or passively/accidentally critique the CCP" but was a lot closer to "stop loving writing books where the hero is told by an ancient historical figure that they're a total badass cool boi"?
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Oct 18, 2019 10:37
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The_White_Crane posted:From the handful of LitRPG/Cultivation stuff I've looked at, I've always wondered how much of the awfulness is a product of amateur translation. The amateur translation, even if it's just proofread machine translation, isn't the main problem.
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Oct 18, 2019 10:51
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Selachian posted:Huh, I never heard of those. Interesting. "Coyly", "Conspiratorial", "wide-eyed innocence", "happily". The dude just has to add the emphasis each time because obviously his readers could never pick up the tone of each exchange simply from the context and dialogue. Well, not with his level of writing, anyway.
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Oct 18, 2019 12:56
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I assumed they'd be terrible on the basis that it's creatively bankrupt to ripoff somebody else's idea that directly. It's a shame, though - apparently his latest includes (Thomas) Flashman at the Alamo, and that seems like it'd make for a good read if Fraser had done it.
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Oct 18, 2019 18:39
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Notahippie posted:I assumed they'd be terrible on the basis that it's creatively bankrupt to ripoff somebody else's idea that directly. It's a shame, though - apparently his latest includes (Thomas) Flashman at the Alamo, and that seems like it'd make for a good read if Fraser had done it. I'm surprised that someone hasn't written, or Fraser's publisher hasn't engaged someone to write, the Flashman-in-the-Civil-War book that Fraser frequently dropped hints about but never did.
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Oct 18, 2019 18:47
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Selachian posted:I'm surprised that someone hasn't written, or Fraser's publisher hasn't engaged someone to write, the Flashman-in-the-Civil-War book that Fraser frequently dropped hints about but never did. One of the great disappointments really. Flashman would have had great scope in the ACW, the juxtaposition of incredible heroism and self-sacrifice with horrible brutality and the onset of industrial slaughter would have brought out the best in his historical perspective (IMO).
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Oct 19, 2019 19:14
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We know from dropped hints that he served on both armies. And was caught up in Booth's flight from Washington to Tennessee, but that's probably a different unwritten book. There are many. He was transported to Australia twice.
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Oct 19, 2019 20:18
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ManlyGrunting posted:I think for that you have to look at what Flashman is satirizing, ie Tom Brown's Schooldays and furthermore the sort of Schoolboy Pastorals that would have been popular at the time when Frasier would have been younger- Orwell has a fantastic essay on the pulp weekly stuff in which he asserts that boys in these stories have very soldierly virtues being held up: physically active, loyal, submissive to authority, patriotism etcetera. Which as mentioned early on, ends up getting Scud a knife in the back in some pointless battle in India. Flashman, as a product of this same schooling system, has picked up how to falsify these virtues, but he's also picked up some of the drawbacks to the system (lack of curiosity about the arts, tendency to flaunt authority as something perfectly natural, lack of egalitarianism and most tellingly: using imperialism as a first choice in advancing his rank). If you're interested in the pulp weeklies that Frasier would have read and Orwell wrote about, here's pretty much the complete collection, on PDF, of The Magnet, which was a British boys magazine from 1908 to 1940 (when it shut down due to lack of paper because of the war) http://www.friardale.co.uk/Magnet/Magnet.htm The big series in the Magnet was the Greyfriars School series, which was about the students of this boy's school. Most of the stories took place at the school, although every once in a while, the main characters would go off to India or Africa or South America or where ever, and get tangled up with plots by Bolshevik or German spies or other bad people, and so on. The stories aren't all bad, that's the thing. Some of them are even entertaining, but they're all very much of a type. The heroes [and there are five main heroes...Harry Wharton and his four friends] are all brave, and loyal to their friends, and good at sports, and honest, and decent at school (but not know-it-alls or arrogant), and will stand up for what the believe in even if it gets them in trouble, and even when they show vices, they tend to be "honest" vices. They're too impulsive, or sometimes speak without thinking, or give the benefit of the doubt to people who don't deserve it. The villainous kids are all bad eggs....they're bad at games, and dishonest, and do things like smoke or gamble, or are bullies, or snobs. And, in a very Flashmanesque sort of thing, the breakaway character of the series; the one that got really popular, was Billy Bunter, who's fat, bad at sport, cheap, dishonest, hypocritical and disloyal, and whose schemes in the stories pretty much inevitably end him him getting caned by the housemaster or beaten up by the other kids he cheated. if you have the chance, it's worth browsing. Each story is about 3 or 4 issues. I mean, honestly, who can't love lines like: quote:Certain fellows in the Remove had brought out a new paper. John Bull was the editor, and it was called John Bull's Junior Weekly. Harry Wharton and Co. were all subeditors. If the paper was not a success, it certainly would not be from any lack of sub-editing. Epicurius fucked around with this message at 03:34 on Oct 25, 2019 |
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Oct 25, 2019 03:27
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I always find that kind of thing fascinating because I actually went to one of the schools of the sort that are featured in said stories, but in the 90s after decades of further evolution. A lot remained the same though. We still had a prep school, upper and lower removes, fifth and sixth forms. We had 'houses' who had distinct ties and the sixth form of each had their special common rooms where they could lord it over the juniors (or bring girls), if you did well in the 'proper' sports you could get half or full 'colours' and get to wear a different tie. We had a 'Fives' court, though it had been closed down years ago and was being used for storage, not to mention the school library was in the towers of a 650 year old city gate. The last boarders were phased out while I was there and my year was the last one before the school went fully coed, with girls even in the upper sixth. There were twice as many boys as girls though yet the girl's facilities were all brand new and twice the size of those for the boys. It was a very odd place to be educated especially as somebody on a scholarship from a poor family. I literally had acquaintances at school who had parents with private planes and would go flying at the weekend, or who bought buildings because they were on the new £20 note and wanted to possess them. That said in the sixth form we also had class sizes of eight which was pretty amazing.
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Oct 25, 2019 12:38
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I've decided to try to revive this thread. If nothing else, I do love these books, as frequently problematic as they can be, and I hate to see it just peter out. So when we left off, Flashman had just barely escaped being elaborately murdered by Gul Shah when another Afghan arrived and took command of the situation. quote:“What has happened here?” He sounded like a vicar in a drawing-room, he was so mild, but Gul Shah kept mum, so I burst out: He acts as if the whole thing is a practical joke gone wrong, until Flashman reveals that he's a British officer: quote:“In the hundred names of God!” he broke in. “A feringhee officer? Plainly there has almost been a very serious accident. Why did you not tell them who you were?” This, of course, is bullshit, but Flashman decides not to argue the point further when the new arrival makes it very clear that Flashman is under his protection, to which Gul Shah resentfully agrees. Flashman is cut loose and taken off to an apartment where he is washed, bandaged, and fed. The stout man chats with him while he eats, mentioning that he's heard of the “Bloody Lance” incident at Mogala (where, as you'll remember, Flashman got his native sidekick killed and took credit for killing four enemies singlehandedly). He also mentions the murder of Sekundar Burnes, which he calls “regrettable” and hopes that the “ruffians” responsible will be captured. quote:“Ruffians?” says I. “Good God, man, those were Akbar Khan’s warriors, not a gang of robbers. I don’t know who you are, or what your influence may be, but you’re behind the times where news is concerned. When they murdered Burnes and sacked his Residency, that was the beginning of a war. If the British haven’t marched from their cantonment into Kabul yet, they soon will, and you can bet on that!” Flashman continues in this vein, recounting what he's seen of the tribesmen outside Kabul and his attempts to warn Burnes about the danger the British are in. His companion suggests if the British were really threatened, they could just leave Kabul and/or move into the fort at Bala Hissar for safety. quote:“You don’t know Elphy Bey, that’s plain,” says I. “Or that rear end McNaghten. They don’t want to believe it, you see; they want to think all’s well. They think Akbar Khan is still skulking away in the Hindu Kush; they refuse to believe the tribes are rallying to him, ready to sweep the British out of Afghanistan.” The stout man finally leaves Flashman to recuperate from his experience, and only then does Flashy think to ask who he's been talking to: quote:“As to that,” he said, “I am the master of this house. My close friends call me Bakbook, because I incline to talk. Others call me by various names, as they choose.” He bowed. “You may call me by my given name, which is Akbar Khan. Good night, Flashman huzoor, and a pleasant rest. There are servants within call if you need them.”  This portrait of Akbar Khan (1816-1845) was painted ca. 1840, although Fraser (and Flashman) say he had blue eyes.
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Jan 4, 2020 00:31
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Thank you for picking up the torch!
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Jan 4, 2020 07:18
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Three cheers for the new OP ! Hip Hip ! Hip Hip ! Huzzah !
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Jan 4, 2020 07:47
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Can't keep old Flashy down
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Jan 4, 2020 08:00
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Just discovered this thread today. Flashy is an unrepentant piece of poo poo, but I love these books. If you are interested in learning more about Afghanistan and India in this period, I highly recommend reading The Great Game by Peter Hopkirk. It covers the spycraft, mapping, diplomacy and fighting that went on as England and Russia expanded their spheres of influence in the region.
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Jan 5, 2020 08:11
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Flashman remains Akbar Khan's “guest” for a week, treated kindly but not allowed to leave and kept in the dark about what's going on outside. Finally, Akbar returns and shares the news with Flashman: the British have done absolutely nothing in response to Burnes's murder and have not left the cantonment. This has only emboldened the mobs running around Kabul looting and shooting at each other (and occasionally at the British). Meanwhile, the hill tribes are closing in on Kabul, intent on driving out the British and putting Akbar on the throne. Akbar has some questions of his own for Flashman: quote:“You said, at our first meeting—or at least you implied—that Elfistan Sahib and McLoten Sahib were…how shall I put it?…sometimes less than intelligent. Was that a considered judgement?” Flashman remains Akbar Khan's prisoner for a couple more weeks, and as he predicted, McNaghten and Elphinstone are unable to make up their minds about what to do about Burnes's murder. The Kabul mobs, unchecked by the British, are practically in open revolt, and just need a leader to guide them. quote:Elphy could, of course, have crushed the mobs by firm action, but he didn’t; he just wrung his hands and took to his bed, and McNaghten wrote him stiff little suggestions about the provisioning of the cantonment for the winter. Meanwhile the Kabulis, who at first had been scared stiff when they realised what they had done in murdering Burnes, got damned uppish, and started attacking the outposts near the cantonment, and shooting up our quarters at night. The only attempt to do anything was a poorly planned expedition under the command of Brigadier John Shelton, which saw the British thoroughly humiliated by Afghan snipers, losing 300 men and driven back to Kabul in a rout. (We'll be hearing a lot more from Shelton as the disaster unfolds.) After a month of being Akbar Khan's “guest,” and pumped thoroughly for information, Flashman is finally released. Akbar tells him that the situation has grown untenable. Elphinstone's dithering has squandered all respect the Afghans might have had for the British, and they can't hold on to Kabul in the face of the mobs and tribesmen anymore. Akbar says he's already worked out the terms of retreat with McNaghten. quote:“...The British have agreed with me and the chiefs to march out to Peshawar as soon as they have gathered provisions for the journey and struck their camp. Sujah, it is agreed, remains on the throne, and the British are guaranteed safe conduct through the passes.” However, it's not quite that simple. McNaghten has been making deals with all the Afghan tribes, and they aren't completely united behind Akbar; in particular, one, the Douranis, don't want to see him on the throne. So Akbar has a proposal for Flashman to take to McNaghten: if the British attack the Douranis for him, he'll allow them to stay in Kabul for another eight months while he sets himself up as Sujah's vizier in preparation for claiming the throne. quote:”Will you carry my proposal secretly to McLoten Sahib, Flashman?” he asked. Akbar and his allies also promise they'll also turn over Amenoolah Khan, who led the attack on Burnes's residency, if McNaghten plays along. Flashman is then returned to the British, with a couple of Akbar's henchmen accompanying him to make sure he transmits the offer properly.
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Jan 5, 2020 17:34
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 I was wondering where this thread went. Thanks for continuing it!
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Jan 5, 2020 18:57
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Adding my voice to those thanking you!
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Jan 8, 2020 02:36
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After his return to the British cantonment, Flashman ends up having dinner with McNaghten and Captain Colin Mackenzie, and explains where he's been.quote:However, as we ate I was able to give him an account of Burnes’s murder and my own adventures with Gul Shah; I told it very plain and offhand, but McNaghten kept exclaiming “Good God!” all the way through, and at the tale of my tug-of-war his glasses fell into his curry. Mackenzie sat watching me narrowly, pulling at his fair moustache, and when I was done and McNaghten was spluttering his astonishment, Mackenzie just said: “Good work, Flash.” This was praise, from him, for he was a tough, cold ramrod of a man, and reckoned the bravest in the Kabul garrison, except maybe for George Broadfoot. If he told my tale—and he would—Flashy’s stock would rise to new heights, which was all to the good.  This portrait of Mackenzie wearing Afghan clothing would be painted later that year. He'd been serving in Afghanistan since 1840, and already distinguished himself in several battles before being made McNaghten's assistant. And yes, we'll be hearing more from him as well. As Akbar predicted, McNaghten jumps for the offer eagerly. quote:“Saved at the eleventh hour!” cries he. “Divide and conquer! Mackenzie, I had dreamed of something precisely like this.” His pale, worn face was all smiles now. “I knew, I knew, that these people were incapable of keeping faith with one another. Behold me proved right!” Mackenzie points out that it's unlikely Akbar will ever serve Sujah, even temporarily, and Flashman admits he doesn't trust Akbar either. But McNaghten argues that Akbar doesn't have anything to gain by treachery, and it's in his interest to have the British take care of his enemies for him. Flashman and McNaghten visit Elphinstone the next day to tell him about the agreement, and find him (predictably) in bed. quote:He couldn’t have been more pleased to see me, and was full of praise for my exploits, but he looked so old and wasted, in his night-cap and gown, that I thought, my God, what chance have we with this to command us? Flashman cheers himself up afterward by going to a dinner party with some of the local garrison and their wives, where he's received as a hero while everyone is sneering at Elphinstone and McNaghten. quote:Mackenzie had told my story, and they were all over me. Even Lady Sale, a vinegary old dragon with a tongue like a carving knife, was civil.  Lady Florentia Sale wasn't that old -- she was 51 at the time, and this portrait was painted the next year. But then Flashman was only 20, so she must have looked ancient to him. Over the last thirty years of her life, she'd been following her husband, General Robert "Fighting Bob" Sale, around India, Mauritius, and France as his military career took him, and finding the time to have nine children in the process. Her youngest child, Alexandrina, was a couple years younger than Flashman. Alexandrina was also living in Kabul with her, and pregnant at the time of the retreat. Selachian fucked around with this message at 06:56 on Jan 8, 2020 |
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Jan 8, 2020 06:28
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