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sigher posted:What? This is like, the biggest thing for me in terms of VR that I want solved. Always having something in your hands sucks and having super fine motor controls is amazing. The barriers to hand tracking aren't really technical; ever since the days of people gaffa-taping LeapMotions to the front of their DK1s we've had the ability to do accurate hand and finger tracking in VR. The problem is it just doesn't feel good. There's no tactile feedback at all, not even the sense of holding something, so most of the actions you actually want to do in games end up feeling floaty and imprecise in spite of the tech. As Stick100 says, remember the lesson of Kinect: Buttons are actually good.
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Sep 27, 2019 22:06
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8-bit Miniboss posted:The Rift S might be the better choice, but it’s not the best choice for everyone. The recommended IPD range on the Rift S is criminally small and cuts out a significant portion of potential users. Me included. Stick100 posted:Well Carmack was confident he could reduce the motion to photon latency (of Quest HMD) to less than the Rift S with the rolling shutter optimization because they do a Spacewarp right before rendering. So I think the Oculus Link motion to photon latency is going to be nearly identical between Quest/S. Lower latency specifically on Spacewarp movements, that of course is entirely plausible if they've come up with some way to do that part on the headset itself while waiting for the next frame from the PC.
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Sep 27, 2019 22:33
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wolrah posted:You have two-way USB latency plus encoding time versus one-way USB latency and an uncompressed signal. Carmack is of course someone who I'll give a dump truck full of benefit of the doubt to, but unless Rift S has some bad built in latency I really can't imagine how it could be possible for the Quest Link configuration to have lower latency for inputs that need to go back to the host. I'm no programmer so take my explanation with a grain of salt. However from watching his talk, timewarp is already done on the headset, but when he was talking about making the latency even lower, it revolved around the OLED screen being a rolling shutter where it loads in lines at a time vs. the S LCD, which is a global shutter and displays the whole image at once. It sounded like if they could get qualcom to do some specific microcode they could load in and decode individual scanlines while its still encoding the next scanlines. Beats me.
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Sep 27, 2019 22:51
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What we need is Chris Roberts to save PCVR gaming with his expert knowledge of hand waving and dreams and expert coding. Imagine what he could do with Carmack. SabinBlitz fucked around with this message at 23:19 on Sep 27, 2019 |
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Sep 27, 2019 23:15
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SabinBlitz posted:What we need is Chris Roberts to save PCVR gaming with his expert knowledge of hand waving and dreams and expert coding. 
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Sep 27, 2019 23:20
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NRVNQSR posted:The problem is it just doesn't feel good. There's no tactile feedback at all, not even the sense of holding something, so most of the actions you actually want to do in games end up feeling floaty and imprecise in spite of the tech. Currently there's no tactile feedback when I press a virtual button with my virtual finger, having a controller is great for things like guns and locomotion, but it's always awkward when I pick up something in VR because it requires me to grip a button on my controller a put my hand in a "gun grip" just to pick up a simple object and look at it more closely. I'm not saying that the hand tracking is going to be the next generation of input method for VR, but it helps. For instance, in H3VR loading guns doesn't feel as natural as it should because I'm grasping magazines and bullets by doing unnatural movements with my left hand, shapes that I'd never put my hand in to pick up an object, it really breaks the immersion for me. A mixture of both will be fantastic.
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Sep 27, 2019 23:23
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sigher posted:Currently there's no tactile feedback when I press a virtual button with my virtual finger, having a controller is great for things like guns and locomotion, but it's always awkward when I pick up something in VR because it requires me to grip a button on my controller a put my hand in a "gun grip" just to pick up a simple object and look at it more closely. I'm not saying that the hand tracking is going to be the next generation of input method for VR, but it helps. For instance, in H3VR loading guns doesn't feel as natural as it should because I'm grasping magazines and bullets by doing unnatural movements with my left hand, shapes that I'd never put my hand in to pick up an object, it really breaks the immersion for me. A mixture of both will be fantastic.
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Sep 27, 2019 23:29
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I don't want hand tracking for everything but it'd be great for things that involve very light interaction like media watching, poker, maybe even stuff like Job Simulator.
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Sep 27, 2019 23:33
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Hands will never replace controllers, because there will always be things that are just better with physical buttons and such. They will be a nice addition to that though. Its like an add on peripheral, only its one that requires no batteries, no setup, and nearly every human already has them on hand with them ( ).From social experiences like bigscreen, sandbox games like job sim, flight and racing games where you can have your hands on a HOTAS, but also reach out to flip switches, to just doing basic movie watching, its a really convenient and useful feature. Also, all the times I've shown VR to people, the #1 issue that I always have to explain and go into detail and old people get wrong, is using controllers. Plopping a headset on grandma and just letting her use her hands makes it even more accessible.
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Sep 27, 2019 23:37
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Tactile/haptic emulating gloves would be the solution there whenever that becomes a thing. Hold the weight of a controller, orrrr grasp the virtual controller and feel the weight in your hands in the same manner...Hopefully it gets there. Also vader ep 2 was fun, but these segments/eps feel super short to me.
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Sep 27, 2019 23:52
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worth mentioning the FIRST THING every VR newbie does when they first put on a headset is look for their hands
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Sep 27, 2019 23:55
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SabinBlitz posted:What we need is Chris Roberts to save PCVR gaming with his expert knowledge of hand waving and dreams and expert coding. I don't think the tickle fetish genre has been explored in VR yet
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Sep 28, 2019 00:01
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Jim Silly-Balls posted:Just like they did with the Rift, right? The Quest is shaping up to be a way bigger success than the original Rift, and the cable is a simple USB 3.1 deal that needs USB-C on at least one end, which is FAR simpler than what the original Rift needed.
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Sep 28, 2019 00:15
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So if you buy stuff on the Quest, can you use it on the Oculus environment on PC? And vice versa? It'd be dope to have the scaled down version on the go, then getting home I can plug in an get the full visual fidelity.
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Sep 28, 2019 00:15
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sigher posted:So if you buy stuff on the Quest, can you use it on the Oculus environment on PC? And vice versa? It'd be dope to have the scaled down version on the go, then getting home I can plug in an get the full visual fidelity. Some games. Its up to the developers individually if they want to allow it. So, Beat Saber doesn't support cross buy, the upcoming Espire 1 does however. What they really need to fully make it like a switch is to have cloud saves compatible between the two versions so you can pick up where you were on the portable or desktop version. I have no idea what this would entail though for developers to do, cloud saves already exist, but I don't know if saves between an android and windows build of something would be easy or a pain. In the oculus store it will tell you what games support cross buy and which don't. Overall its impressive how many developers have been willing to allow it. It feels like a majority of games on quest. EDIT: I don't know how up to date this is though: https://www.reddit.com/r/oculus/wiki/crossbuy Tom Guycot fucked around with this message at 00:23 on Sep 28, 2019 |
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Sep 28, 2019 00:21
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Cool, I won't mind buying something twice if I really like it but I'm glad a lot of devs do that! I'm stoked to get my Quest tomorrow and do some comparisons. Are headphones suggested for the Quest?
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Sep 28, 2019 00:24
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I bought a Quest and packed up my old Rift. I know I'm going to end up double dipping on Beat Saber so I can flail around like an idiot on the go.
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Sep 28, 2019 00:34
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sigher posted:Cool, I won't mind buying something twice if I really like it but I'm glad a lot of devs do that! I'm stoked to get my Quest tomorrow and do some comparisons. Headphones make it significantly more of a pain to put on and take off. The built in speakers are actually pretty decent and extremely convenient. I would give it a shot without any first to see how much you like it.
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Sep 28, 2019 00:38
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the non-headphone sound solution is like a top 3 feature of the Quest IMO
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Sep 28, 2019 00:44
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sigher posted:Cool, I won't mind buying something twice if I really like it but I'm glad a lot of devs do that! I'm stoked to get my Quest tomorrow and do some comparisons. Yeah, theres several options. If you like in ear phones, theres ones from oculus, as well as various 3rd parties (you can of course use any headphones, but the quest has a jack on both sides so you can use custom extremely short cabled headphones for each ear). If you want something larger, theres some commercial options that work like the mantis clip on ones meant for the psvr originally. You can 3d print/order printed various connectors people have made to hook up the original rift headphones, the vive DAS, or other holders for people have made for various headphones like the koss porta pro's (they're the same drivers the rift cv1 used I guess.)
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Sep 28, 2019 00:46
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Stick100 posted:You won't have super fine motor controls. Hand tracking will best be used for video and simple enterprise training. For games you're absolutely going to want controllers. Just remember the kinect. VR is different than the Kinect, because a game could present "buttons" on your arms that you just press to enable more input options, and you'd be able to see what you were doing. Can't really do that with a Kinect game. Though maybe other people aren't as interested as I am in doing finger guns and making your own sound effects to shoot.
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Sep 28, 2019 00:53
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Hellsau posted:VR is different than the Kinect, because a game could present "buttons" on your arms that you just press to enable more input options, and you'd be able to see what you were doing. Can't really do that with a Kinect game. That example makes me think of an interview with someone from oculus where they were talking about working on what kind of interactions work with just your hands for selecting things, bringing up a menu, etc. An interesting part they talked about was using stuff with natural haptics, like pinching your finger to select something or tapping your arm to open a menu. So you're still getting "feedback" on your "controllers" when you perform specific actions.
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Sep 28, 2019 00:57
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Hellsau posted:VR is different than the Kinect, because a game could present "buttons" on your arms that you just press to enable more input options, and you'd be able to see what you were doing. Can't really do that with a Kinect game. I dunno even holding VIVE remotes that I can click and hold and touch and they buzz in response to me doing things, I find myself wishing I had way more feedback to make VR experiences better. Like, shooting guns feels better than swinging swords because a sword in VR right now can't ever actually hit something, it has to just wave right through things. That's wrong and feels bad. Taking away even the buzzing in my hand that lets me feel I'm shooting a gun would be further getting worse. Touch-less buttons suck. Buttons you push and they go "click" are great and 1,000% more reliable. That poo poo matters. Especially to being able to like, do something without looking at it. Which in VR you easily can, but not if its an hologram button. That all said, I'm not sure I agree with hand tracking being best used for enterprise training. Hand tracking has lots of uses and potential. But you're gonna want to have something you can touch for gaming. Tom Guycot posted:That example makes me think of an interview with someone from oculus where they were talking about working on what kind of interactions work with just your hands for selecting things, bringing up a menu, etc. An interesting part they talked about was using stuff with natural haptics, like pinching your finger to select something or tapping your arm to open a menu. So you're still getting "feedback" on your "controllers" when you perform specific actions. The other side is reliability. If I tap my fingers but it only works 60% of the time based on visibility and angle, I'd rather just have a button I know will absolutely loving work 10 out of 10 times and can be relied upon. VR is uncomfortable already and requires jumping through hoops, we don't need to add any bit of more unreliability. Going back to the kinect example, selecting menus with your hands is cool, but if it fails and you have to wave your arm 3 times to get it to work, you feel like a moron. I'd rather just push a button once.
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Sep 28, 2019 01:01
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Hand tracking is VR's version of the laptop trackpad or phone touchscreen. It's a convenience option and/or a fallback rather than the default way all VR games will be controlled from now on and it might even be better for certain types of games.
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Sep 28, 2019 01:57
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SCheeseman posted:Hand tracking is VR's version of the laptop trackpad or phone touchscreen. It's a convenience option and/or a fallback rather than the default way all VR games will be controlled from now on and it might even be better for certain types of games. Yeah that sounds right to me
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Sep 28, 2019 02:24
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Tom Guycot posted:I'm no programmer so take my explanation with a grain of salt. However from watching his talk, timewarp is already done on the headset, but when he was talking about making the latency even lower, it revolved around the OLED screen being a rolling shutter where it loads in lines at a time vs. the S LCD, which is a global shutter and displays the whole image at once. It sounded like if they could get qualcom to do some specific microcode they could load in and decode individual scanlines while its still encoding the next scanlines. Beats me. Yes to my reading of his discussion was that if he had low-level access and could write to a rolling shutter instead of having to pass the whole image he could have a lower motion to photon latency for the HMD because they do a last second ASW on the HMD. Yes the previous poster was correct you'll still have greater controller and game display latency than normal PCVR. But the point is that Oculus link can get extremely close to PCVR which is bonkers. He also described a possible future where the image is rendered on the PC (or a Stadia-like solution) and do the controller rendering on the HMD. It would require a significant change to the way games are made. They don't think they'll be able to convice anyone to do that kind of development.
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Sep 28, 2019 05:37
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You MUST install the rockstar game launcher to play LA Noire VR? Man, gently caress off R*
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Sep 28, 2019 05:42
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Zaphod42 posted:You MUST install the rockstar game launcher to play LA Noire VR? Yes, also you had to do that for LA Noire standard version. e: I agree with your sentiment but it's not new to the VR release.
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Sep 28, 2019 07:00
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I used to have a Leap Motion for my DK2 and it it had its up and down sides, and was limited but did work well. There was something cool about having your full hands in a game, but the lack of any kind of resistance or feedback could make it feel odd, odder than using a touch controller for example. Here's a stupid vid I made way back in early 2016 showing it off, looking at the vid now it's interesting to see how much of it can be done using Touch controllers, which were still a long way off when I had this thing. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LcJ2m4p9UlM If I compare the experience to Touch now I'd say I can do pretty much everything I could with the Leap Motion, but it's also nice to have a little weight, resistance and feedback that hand tracking with no controllers lack. If I had to choose between the two having had both options I'd probably choose the controller over hand tracking alone.
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Sep 28, 2019 14:48
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Clearly we need repelling electromagnets in our gloves to simulate grip resistance next
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Sep 28, 2019 15:33
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Gort posted:Clearly we need repelling electromagnets in our gloves to simulate grip resistance next There's actually a company called Dexta Robotics with a neat-looking resistive glove controller prototype. RoadtoVR had a relatively recent article on them. Also if you're planning on getting Asgard's Wrath, you're gonna want to clear out some space on the hard drive.. It's a good 121GB in size because of its textures.
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Sep 28, 2019 15:40
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Anyone know where I can get some bullet proof glass?
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Sep 28, 2019 20:48
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RedLobster posted:Anyone know where I can get some bullet proof glass? https://www.tv-armor.com/
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Sep 28, 2019 20:52
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just put something sturdy in front of the screen when you start VR, it's not like you have to look at it
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Sep 28, 2019 21:44
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You don’t have to look at your monitor in VR so set the opposite side of the room as “front” in your VR setup so you won’t be facing your monitor as much. Also add extra boundary buffer space so your boundary will show up sooner when you move towards your monitor. And then honor that boundary.
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Sep 28, 2019 22:29
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I did set the front of the room opposite my monitor, and I leave my chair sticking out so that usually stops me straying too close to the monitor. Obviously it didn't work that time. Think I'll find a nice thick piece of wood to put in front of it next time.
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Sep 28, 2019 23:16
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RedLobster posted:I did set the front of the room opposite my monitor, and I leave my chair sticking out so that usually stops me straying too close to the monitor. Obviously it didn't work that time. By far the best solution that I've seen to is to get some sort of rug or something that you can feel with your feet. Lay it out in the center of your space so as long as you're standing on it, you can't hit anything. It's even better than guardian because you can tell if you're safe or not viscerally instead of needing to hope that the guardian boundaries appear in time.
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Sep 28, 2019 23:42
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I have a like 5 or 6 feet sideways but only 2 and a half max forward (at the monitor and sensors) and backward. I like the rug idea alot, I'm good with a hardstop at my waist level behind me, but having a better idea of how far I can go forward would be nice. I think I'm going to find a big rear end piece of foam for the monitor screen though, just in case.
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Sep 29, 2019 00:20
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RedLobster posted:I did set the front of the room opposite my monitor, and I leave my chair sticking out so that usually stops me straying too close to the monitor. Obviously it didn't work that time. If possible, try rotating the monitor so that the back faces you, or at least, you minimise how much screen could potentially be hit.
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Sep 29, 2019 00:44
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The Quest arrived today. Took a bit to setup / figure out the new controllers then a lot more to figure out side loading / side quest / Beaton but I now have some custom songs going on Beat Saber and... god drat I’m so loving glad I made the jump from the Rift to this. It’s night and day better in every loving way. Doing this poo poo anywhere is sooooo good and the tracking is real good as well.Paid the double dip tax to have BS on the go but given how much I’ve been playing and how much more I’ll play it now I’m all right with throwing more money their way. That said, the speakers or whatever this thing has going on are not good at all. Pairing or connecting headphones is next on my list. Happy Noodle Boy fucked around with this message at 01:14 on Sep 29, 2019 |
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Sep 29, 2019 00:58
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