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TGLT posted:Except I'm pretty sure that's not how it works. This level of classification and this server were chosen specifically to prevent congressional access. I'm fairly certain any other level of classification is perfectly accessible by congress. He's not on record doing crimes in these other, unrelated discussions. Their reasons were obstensibly "we wanted to stop leaks", which is improper, and they need to be reclassified to the proper level. The reason why code-wording these conversations is bad is because our IC and high-ranking diplomats of the relevant countries needs to know about these conversations, and putting them in these unnecessarily high levels of secrecy makes it harder to do their jobs and puts our national security at risk. The members of the intelligence committees have security clearances, but just because you have the right level of clearance doesn't mean you get to see it. You also need to have a need to know. If you are an analyst in charge of the middle east or a diplomat to Saudi Arabia and the president had an important relevant conversation, you might get access to it so you can do your job and might need to know all the details of that conversation. If you are Burr or Schiff, you dont get to see them because you don't have a need to know. If something relevant to national security was said, it can be picked out, summarized, and included in their briefings by an IC analyst. In this case all we have is a suspicion that Trump probably said something politically dumb, but not illegal.
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Sep 28, 2019 02:20
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This is like a firesale from that Die Hard movie, except real and about the President.
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Sep 28, 2019 02:21
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Dapper_Swindler posted:i mean can't IC just reclasify them as lower classification if it turns out a bunch of them are hidden because of crimes. Oh, I have no clue. That politico link I posted above makes it seem unclear if the IC can override the president on this one. Maybe? Man I don't loving know. I do know that with the allegations out there it's pretty much A. refuse to release transcripts and convince the public the reporting is legit or B. release the transcripts and probably confirm the reporting is legit.
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Sep 28, 2019 02:22
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TGLT posted:As far as I can tell, congress has access to documents that are classified as Top Secret, and these transcripts are Code Word classified which is sort of a compartmentalized subset of Top Secret. There isn't anywhere higher to go, at most they could try to shuffle them around which would probably make it clear to any judge that this poo poo isn't legit. This reminds me of the old Cheney days of the fake "Treat as Top Secret" classification they used to hide a ton of poo poo.
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Sep 28, 2019 02:22
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the argument will be that the server contains sensitive information about the president's dealings with foreign heads of state and to reveal anything on it, even the alleged conversations, would pertain to matters of executive privilege and permanently undermine the executive's ability to conduct diplomacy. consider it a modern update to nixon's argument for why he couldn't release his oval office tapes. now, given that the call is now public knowledge, that trump and his personal lawyer have confirmed elements of the call, and the white house has released a summary version, i doubt this argument would be legally sound. but the idea is probably not to make a legal argument (beyond delaying) so much as it is to make a political one that republicans can rally around
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Sep 28, 2019 02:22
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https://twitter.com/CNN/status/1177754813213356032 UK also speedrunning collapse of their government
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Sep 28, 2019 02:23
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TGLT posted:Oh, I have no clue. That politico link I posted above makes it seem unclear if the IC can override the president on this one. Maybe? Man I don't loving know. i mean i feel like now that impeachment is on, the House can probably figure out which ones they need. plus leaks will come out.
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Sep 28, 2019 02:23
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Rigel posted:He's not on record doing crimes in these other, unrelated discussions. Their reasons were obstensibly "we wanted to stop leaks", which is improper, and they need to be reclassified to the proper level. Considering they just released a transcript of him doing something illegal I am 100% sure one of those other calls also has something illegal.
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Sep 28, 2019 02:24
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Party Plane Jones posted:https://twitter.com/CNN/status/1177754813213356032 they're trying to do a tandem collapse
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Sep 28, 2019 02:24
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Rigel posted:I'm not really getting excited about the other conversations being stored on the super secret server bit, because I'm pretty sure congress can't grab them, even behind closed doors, just for the hell of it. At least with Ukraine the intelligence committees had a reason through the whistleblower to believe he broke the law and their demands would have eventually been allowed by a court. "We're curious, and think they might be politically embarrassing" isn't enough, I don't think. As of now, the super secret server's security from being combed is likely going to be subject to subpoenas from the upgraded impeachment inquiries from the house. So the low-level, underpaid thugs at the White House can try to block access, but they themselves as individuals shall be subject to obstruction and gobs of fines. As will those who directed same thugs. Stopping access will likely be yet another obstruction charge, which is piled on the impeachment bonfire.
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Sep 28, 2019 02:25
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Stereotype posted:Considering they just released a transcript of him doing something illegal I am 100% sure one of those other calls also has something illegal. I am too. But there's 100% sure on a dead gay comedy forum level, and then there's I'm 100% sure in federal court level.
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Sep 28, 2019 02:27
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Otteration posted:As of now, the super secret server's security from being combed is likely going to be subject to subpoenas from the upgraded impeachment inquiries from the house. So the low-level, underpaid thugs at the White House can try to block access, but they themselves as individuals shall be subject to obstruction and gobs of fines. As will those who directed same thugs. Their attempts to block congress will likely be successful, barring another leak from the IC telling us "hey, more crimes here".
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Sep 28, 2019 02:28
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Otteration posted:As of now, the super secret server's security from being combed is likely going to be subject to subpoenas from the upgraded impeachment inquiries from the house. So the low-level, underpaid thugs at the White House can try to block access, but they themselves as individuals shall be subject to obstruction and gobs of fines. As will those who directed same thugs. the last three articles of impeachment advanced after the watergate scandal related to the president’s refusal to comply with subpoenas Rigel posted:Their attempts to block congress will likely be successful, barring another leak from the IC telling us "hey, more crimes here". i mean, the current whistleblower report suggests as much.
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Sep 28, 2019 02:28
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Did this guy resigning get posted already? https://twitter.com/washingtonpost/status/1177756898101252097?s=20
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Sep 28, 2019 02:29
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FizFashizzle posted:Is it possible Trump just didn't understand how bad all that poo poo made him look? I keep trying to get this across, Trump does not assess risk like normal humans do, because he's failed upward so consistently. In his brain he convinces himself that failure is success and bad things are actually good things. This is not his age, you can see it over and over again throughout his life.
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Sep 28, 2019 02:29
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Appoint a special master to review the President’s calls that were improperly stored. Give them a scope to work with, like any call related to Ukraine/Russia that was improper.
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Sep 28, 2019 02:30
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Kavros posted:they're trying to do a tandem collapse
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Sep 28, 2019 02:30
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Slowpoke! posted:Appoint a special master to review the President’s calls that were improperly stored. Give them a scope to work with, like any call related to Ukraine/Russia that was improper. Probably include saudi arabia and china and make it a dem appointee
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Sep 28, 2019 02:30
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https://twitter.com/jordanuhl/status/1177756024415117313?s=21FizFashizzle posted:Did this guy resigning get posted already? yes, NYT/WAPO got scooped by this dude's fuckin' college newspaper
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Sep 28, 2019 02:31
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FizFashizzle posted:Did this guy resigning get posted already? yeah, won't stop him from being subpoenaed.
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Sep 28, 2019 02:33
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Slowpoke! posted:Appoint a special master to review the President’s calls that were improperly stored. Give them a scope to work with, like any call related to Ukraine/Russia that was improper. This seems reasonable if Congress really can't get full access to that server. There's already confirmation that there is improper stuff on that server and reasonable suspicion that there could be other improperly classified information.
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Sep 28, 2019 02:34
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Another reason why I am not excited is because as someone said earlier, the president has the absolute authority to classify anything to any level he wants. At some point when he runs out of other arguments, he can just say "too bad, my conversations with world leaders are now at this level, regardless of the perceived threat to national security, neener neener."
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Sep 28, 2019 02:35
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oh my god it literally is the deep state https://twitter.com/RealSaavedra/status/1177686664476418048?s=20
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Sep 28, 2019 02:37
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Rigel posted:Another reason why I am not excited is because as someone said earlier, the president has the absolute authority to classify anything to any level he wants. Another strong argument for keeping the scope of the investigation broad.
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Sep 28, 2019 02:37
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FizFashizzle posted:oh my god it literally is the deep state well poo poo, i am curious if this will add any twists to it. i feel like if trump learns about this he will try to pull a purge out of "oh gently caress" paranoia.
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Sep 28, 2019 02:38
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Rigel posted:Another reason why I am not excited is because as someone said earlier, the president has the absolute authority to classify anything to any level he wants. If you're referring to this politico link I posted, the other half of that is that there are EOs in effect that forbid the classification of material " in order to “conceal violations of law, inefficiency, or administrative error” or “prevent embarrassment to a person, organization, or agency.” ". It's unclear if the president is also legally bound to those laws so it's a big old question mark. At any rate knives are clearly out for Trump.
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Sep 28, 2019 02:38
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Majorian posted:Another strong argument for keeping the scope of the investigation broad. sure, but as soon as Ukraine is ready to go, its time to vote for impeachment.
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Sep 28, 2019 02:38
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Rigel posted:Another reason why I am not excited is because as someone said earlier, the president has the absolute authority to classify anything to any level he wants. If he does that, the House demands them, he tells them to gently caress off, wouldn't that be grounds for yet another article of impeachment?
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Sep 28, 2019 02:39
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TGLT posted:If you're referring to this politico link I posted, the other half of that is that there are EOs in effect that forbid the classification of material " in order to “conceal violations of law, inefficiency, or administrative error” or “prevent embarrassment to a person, organization, or agency.” ". It's unclear if the president is also legally bound to those laws so it's a big old question mark. EO's apply to people below him. The president can rewrite EOs on a whim, and they often do on the first hour of their presidency as soon as they get to their desk.
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Sep 28, 2019 02:40
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Dapper_Swindler posted:well poo poo, i am curious if this will add any twists to it. i feel like if trump learns about this he will try to pull a purge out of "oh gently caress" paranoia. If it's even remotely true, The Federalist is garbage. e: Though at this point it doesn't matter, the President confirmed it himself and Rudy G has confirmed other parts of the complaint.
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Sep 28, 2019 02:40
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CHEF!!! posted:If he does that, the House demands them, he tells them to gently caress off, wouldn't that be grounds for yet another article of impeachment? impeachment is a political process. They could arguably impeach him for being stupid and cruel. We try to tie everything to a crime for political reasons, because it would look bad to the voters who elected him if we went "hmmmm, nah we don't like the guy."
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Sep 28, 2019 02:41
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FizFashizzle posted:oh my god it literally is the deep state  e: I can't even, the federalist.
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Sep 28, 2019 02:42
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Rigel posted:Their attempts to block congress will likely be successful, barring another leak from the IC telling us "hey, more crimes here". "Look, we already have you on a possession charge, how about you talk some or we add some congressional obstruction tax stamp fines onto that and see what the people think too?"
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Sep 28, 2019 02:43
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Rigel posted:EO's apply to people below him. The president can rewrite EOs on a whim, and they often do on the first hour of their presidency as soon as they get to their desk. But this one hasn't been rewritten, so it poses an open legal question as to whether or not Trump can in fact just wave his hands to classify stuff that damages his rep.
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Sep 28, 2019 02:44
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https://twitter.com/kenklippenstein/status/1177758948641968128
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Sep 28, 2019 02:44
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TGLT posted:As far as I can tell, congress has access to documents that are classified as Top Secret, and these transcripts are Code Word classified which is sort of a compartmentalized subset of Top Secret. There isn't anywhere higher to go, at most they could try to shuffle them around which would probably make it clear to any judge that this poo poo isn't legit. As I mentioned in the thread earlier today (about a billion posts ago) the real problem is that most members of Congress don't have any staffers who have TS/SCI clearance and there are limited ways in which staffers can obtain clearance, which severely limits the practical ability to conduct oversight.
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Sep 28, 2019 02:45
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RuanGacho posted:
yeah that explains that.
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Sep 28, 2019 02:47
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Dapper_Swindler posted:well poo poo, i am curious if this will add any twists to it. i feel like if trump learns about this he will try to pull a purge out of "oh gently caress" paranoia. 
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Sep 28, 2019 02:47
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SubG posted:Congress in general does not, but members of the intel committees have access to TS/SCI materials. The way the intel committees conduct hearings and deliberations are structured to accommodate this. My understanding is that any Congressional committee with oversight authority over a given field can subpoena, and read, classified information relating to that field, because classification is an executive branch thing that applies to the executive branch, and separation of powers prevents it from applying to members of Congress or federal judges, but practically speaking classified stuff (being mostly stuff relating to the IC) gets handled by the intelligence committees.
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Sep 28, 2019 02:49
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Remember a billion years ago when Kushner tried to set up back channel comms? That seems so quaint now.
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Sep 28, 2019 02:49
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