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Zaphod42 posted:When people are complaining about tab targeting, its not the tab they're complaining about. What they really don't like is hotkey combat with everything on set Global Cooldowns. As it turns out, most people who play Final Fantasy XIV enjoy Final Fantasy games 
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Sep 22, 2019 22:38
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can't all have good taste.
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Sep 22, 2019 22:40
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I dunno. When I hear people complain about tab targeting I usually take that to mean the targeting method itself. What I think they are asking for is a game with a higher skill threshold, where aiming your skills is actually relevant. There’s also some stuff that implicitly comes with moving away from tab targeting, like preventing enemies from stacking, and implementing better hit detection. Global cooldowns are their own separate issue but I believe those can be done well.
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Sep 22, 2019 23:10
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apostateCourier posted:As it turns out, most people who play Final Fantasy XIV enjoy Final Fantasy games Nobody is saying FFXIV shouldn't exist?????  And I was talking about EQ and WoW so... jeeze. Rude!The whole point of this thread is talking about the niche that isn't served by WoW and FFXIV. The demand for "another style" of mmo. That demand existing doesn't mean that demand for FFXIV doesn't exist, or is wrong or something. Like wtf. That's a really close-minded way of thinking. Nobody said anything close to that. You're being weird. We were talking specifically about people who don't like tab-targeting. That doesn't mean there aren't people who do like tab targeting. Context is important. Zaphod42 fucked around with this message at 23:19 on Sep 22, 2019 |
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Sep 22, 2019 23:16
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I think tab targeting would be more interesting if you could control its behavior, like tab + x to target by range, tab + y to target by lowest health, etc..
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Sep 22, 2019 23:26
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I prefer tab targetting. Just makes the most sense to me in an mmo.
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Sep 22, 2019 23:47
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Zaphod42 posted:Nobody is saying FFXIV shouldn't exist????? whats wrong with you man
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Sep 23, 2019 00:10
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I said come in! posted:I prefer tab targetting. Just makes the most sense to me in an mmo. that's because it's the only thing that's done.
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Sep 23, 2019 00:42
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Zaphod42 posted:One of few MMOs I never tried the new release coming up Unchained, make the game totally worth playing. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4QJlinOviHcThis is a GREAT video that sums up arche age as well as shows off some of the new content coming! Totally Stoked!!
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Sep 23, 2019 03:32
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looking at a video, it looks like FFXIV on steroids. Which is kinda what we were discussing, yeah.
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Tab-targeting makes sense when your gameplay involves 20-30 different abilities on an ability bar and it needs to be easy to use them on various dudes in the game world. It's a lot easier to heal a guy who is behind 4 enemies when you can tab over to him. I don't think it really makes sense to get rid of tab-targeting if you aren't going to change the general gameplay as well. But then if you make an MMORPG with the same combat as an actual shooter or an action game, then people aren't really going to call it an MMORPG. Also making a shooter MMORPG has its own problems, like the fact that engagement ranges get really huge, and if you try to limit them somehow then it's going to feel a little bad. Tab-targeting gives you very precise control over targeting ranges without frustrating the player, so there's that. Minorkos fucked around with this message at 08:50 on Sep 23, 2019 |
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Sep 23, 2019 08:41
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Wouldn't an alternative to tab targeting basically being FPS controls? Aim the ability in a direction and hope whatever you're targeting is still around.
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Sep 23, 2019 11:48
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yeah, and it owns
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Sep 23, 2019 12:10
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RagnarokZ posted:Wouldn't an alternative to tab targeting basically being FPS controls? Aim the ability in a direction and hope whatever you're targeting is still around. Yeah you could but then you couldn't start your design doc with "well it's like wow but"
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Sep 23, 2019 12:29
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YES bread posted:whats wrong with you man We asked the super computer from The Time Tunnel for an analysis and that dot matrix printer hooked up to it has been going non stop all day.
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Sep 23, 2019 13:49
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RagnarokZ posted:Wouldn't an alternative to tab targeting basically being FPS controls? Aim the ability in a direction and hope whatever you're targeting is still around. Also a top down isometric Diablo / PoE / LoL style.
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Sep 23, 2019 15:33
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Zaphod42 posted:Its really turn-based combat with automatic turns set by ticks. Its much more of a strategy game than an action game. Its closer to Final Fantasy than it is to Diablo. This is why it's fun. Turn based combat is great.
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Sep 23, 2019 15:36
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MMOs play like "realtime without pause" rather than turnbased tho.
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Sep 23, 2019 15:37
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Ruggan posted:Also a top down isometric Diablo / PoE / LoL style. I wish there were more MMOs like this. I really want Lost ARK to come to America, but I don't think that is ever going to happen.
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Sep 23, 2019 15:50
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Mormon Star Wars posted:This is why it's fun. Turn based combat is great. no.
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Sep 23, 2019 15:57
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s-stop liking what I dont like....
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Sep 23, 2019 16:18
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Minorkos posted:Tab-targeting makes sense when your gameplay involves 20-30 different abilities on an ability bar and it needs to be easy to use them on various dudes in the game world. It's a lot easier to heal a guy who is behind 4 enemies when you can tab over to him. I don't think it really makes sense to get rid of tab-targeting if you aren't going to change the general gameplay as well. But then if you make an MMORPG with the same combat as an actual shooter or an action game, then people aren't really going to call it an MMORPG. There's a billion possibilities between "traditional tab target GCD MMORPG" and "FPS". That's a huge leap. Some FPS focus way more on area of effect attacks and ground-targeted attacks, for instance. Truga posted:MMOs play like "realtime without pause" rather than turnbased tho. The context of the post was "tun-based with automatic turns" so... yes? That is indeed what we were talking about, but those are some other words if you want to be pedantic and argue semantics.
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Sep 23, 2019 16:39
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RagnarokZ posted:Wouldn't an alternative to tab targeting basically being FPS controls? Aim the ability in a direction and hope whatever you're targeting is still around. I believe BDO did a descent blend of tab targeting and direction combat, where aiming and combos actually had an effect on damage etc.
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Sep 23, 2019 19:54
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at least when i say tab target its really just a shorthand for 'targetted hotkey gameplay where generally, position and aim are completely meaningless'. some games, at least, require you have to line of sight, but generally you just have to be in a vague range of someone and they can be hit. also, these games tend to auto-attack for you which makes it even worse. tab target is just easier to say because these games all have the same control scheme as well as general gameplay. what people want is dark souls online, or some kind of actually good online shooter, but what we keep getting is at best stuff like black desert where superficially it looks like an action game... but really its just WoW where even basic attacks are essentially a non-circular AoE
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Sep 26, 2019 08:55
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Zaphod42 posted:The context of the post was "tun-based with automatic turns" so... yes? That is indeed what we were talking about, but those are some other words if you want to be pedantic and argue semantics. It's a joke wordplay about how realtime with pause combat is terrible compared to actual turn based combat, and MMOs are just that same garbo combat, but without the pause, op.
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Sep 26, 2019 09:45
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Larry Parrish posted:at least when i say tab target its really just a shorthand for 'targetted hotkey gameplay where generally, position and aim are completely meaningless'. some games, at least, require you have to line of sight, but generally you just have to be in a vague range of someone and they can be hit. also, these games tend to auto-attack for you which makes it even worse. tab target is just easier to say because these games all have the same control scheme as well as general gameplay. yeah people are being weirdly pedantic when it should be obvious from the discussion what people mean and what they want.
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Sep 26, 2019 18:24
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Groovelord Neato posted:yeah people are being weirdly pedantic when it should be obvious from the discussion what people mean and what they want. Goons love to pick apart a post because of the wording instead of the intended message. It drags down a lot of conversations. Also love ignoring obvious conversations with context and sniping the last post as though it existed on its own. Its like a fundamental flaw of this style of post forum.
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Sep 26, 2019 19:12
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but for real how is vindictus the only action game mmo. although it's barely an mmo. i suppose its more like Dated Fantasy Warframe with a shared hub
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Sep 26, 2019 22:34
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Zaphod42 posted:Goons love to pick apart a post because of the wording instead of the intended message. It drags down a lot of conversations. too bad that the branching threads that web 2.0 poo poo loved suck even worse, op at least single-threaded forums build a sense of thread community
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Sep 26, 2019 23:33
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Jazerus posted:too bad that the branching threads that web 2.0 poo poo loved suck even worse, op  No perfect system... but goddamn gently caress that reddit poo poo.
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Sep 27, 2019 21:58
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I'd like to see a combat system akin to Monster Hunter/Dragon's Dogma but with MMO level of players and more range options. You have a sort-of tab target system for new players but you quickly learn it's not useful after the learning phases. Climbing monsters is fun and destroying monster parts is a blast. It would be insane to code but drat would it be awesome.
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Sep 27, 2019 23:56
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Jazerus posted:too bad that the branching threads that web 2.0 poo poo loved suck even worse, op Oh sure, I'm not sure there's anything much better out there. But its a flaw nonetheless. I think Stack Overflow is probably the best forum for actually getting poo poo done and finding answers, but its not appropriate for just general conversation. There's probably some things we could do to improve but it'll take a few decades for society to figure that out, both from a technology and just like, cultural standpoint. Kortel posted:I'd like to see a combat system akin to Monster Hunter/Dragon's Dogma but with MMO level of players and more range options. You have a sort-of tab target system for new players but you quickly learn it's not useful after the learning phases. Climbing monsters is fun and destroying monster parts is a blast. It would be insane to code but drat would it be awesome. I think you could build an MMO where different weapon types or classes appeal to different people, yeah, seems like you can have your cake and eat it too. The dream mmo I've been imagining would have like dexterity fighters basically playing dark souls and dying to a couple hits. But then you could play a slow heavy tank character, and that'd be more forgiving for people who aren't as good at dark souls. And then you could have like an archer for people who want to play an FPS, and then have a wizard for people who don't want fast action at all but want to make strategic decisions. Its tough to balance it all, but I think it could be done, and works better than one-size-fits all design. I wanna see more roles in my role-playing, more diversity. I like how FFXIV has trade classes, but they're completely divorced from the normal leveling combat classes. I wanna see like quests where 4 warriors have to escort 1 blacksmith to a special mountain and defend him while he mines various minerals in the area or whatever. role playing! Zaphod42 fucked around with this message at 00:39 on Sep 28, 2019 |
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Sep 28, 2019 00:36
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I said come in! posted:I wish there were more MMOs like this. I really want Lost ARK to come to America, but I don't think that is ever going to happen. My wife and I played through and we hit the storyline wall where you cant advance the main story without a set equipment level and the grind kicks in and it is savage. There is even an island and series of daily quests that eventually leads to a ship reward based on the korean Amazon where you deliver packages for their island warehouse hub. But it was very much what Diablo 3/4 should have been. But a slower pace of improvement once you max out level than Diablo offers.
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Sep 28, 2019 05:32
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Tab targeting is not really an issue. Any game with a target lock option is basically a tab targeting system. The issue is that the majority of MMOs just lack depth in their combat system beyond "make enemy green bar go down by pressing ability button while in range".
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Sep 28, 2019 09:47
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SweetBro posted:Tab targeting is not really an issue. Any game with a target lock option is basically a tab targeting system. The issue is that the majority of MMOs just lack depth in their combat system beyond "make enemy green bar go down by pressing ability button while in range". Larry Parrish posted:at least when i say tab target its really just a shorthand for 'targetted hotkey gameplay where generally, position and aim are completely meaningless'. some games, at least, require you have to line of sight, but generally you just have to be in a vague range of someone and they can be hit. also, these games tend to auto-attack for you which makes it even worse. tab target is just easier to say because these games all have the same control scheme as well as general gameplay.
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Sep 28, 2019 11:20
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Larry Parrish posted:what people want is dark souls online, or some kind of actually good online shooter, but what we keep getting is at best stuff like black desert where superficially it looks like an action game... but really its just WoW where even basic attacks are essentially a non-circular AoE Even WoW's combat has complexity. Timing, optimal orders, cooldowns coordinated with others, positioning within a fight impacting decisions related to those, reacting to procs, tracking icds of items, and all that. When I read these posts about a lack of complexity in combat I imagine people are just blind to the depth of the games they are slamming. Or maybe they romanticize something, like "Dark Souls", but ignore how it fits into an overall game and would appear to lack depth after 300 days played of MMO. Khorne fucked around with this message at 12:44 on Sep 28, 2019 |
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Sep 28, 2019 12:32
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Kortel posted:I'd like to see a combat system akin to Monster Hunter/Dragon's Dogma but with MMO level of players and more range options. You have a sort-of tab target system for new players but you quickly learn it's not useful after the learning phases. Climbing monsters is fun and destroying monster parts is a blast. It would be insane to code but drat would it be awesome. Ha ha, if you where Japanese you would have played a Dragons Dogma MMO already. Sadly Capcom never really thought to bring it over to the West and shut it down in December this year.
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Sep 28, 2019 16:42
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for me it's not a question of simplicity vs complexity i've just wanted real-time "twitch" combat since the genre came into being.
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Sep 28, 2019 16:51
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SweetBro posted:Tab targeting is not really an issue. Any game with a target lock option is basically a tab targeting system. The issue is that the majority of MMOs just lack depth in their combat system beyond "make enemy green bar go down by pressing ability button while in range". Nah, I disagree with that. Years of WoW has shown lots and lots and lots of different ideas and evolutions of what abilities can do, when you can use them, etc. FFXIV 's class gauges are a good example of this. You can do some really complicated stuff with abilities. But it just never feels as engaging. People want something that's more visceral and has more feedback. But even then I think you could improve on tab targeting. If enemies had more knockback and everything was more based on arcs and ground-targets and facing mattered, etc. But that's slowly just morphing into real-time combat anyways. The lines blur.
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Sep 28, 2019 21:42
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Zaphod42 posted:But even then I think you could improve on tab targeting. If enemies had more knockback and everything was more based on arcs and ground-targets and facing mattered, etc. But that's slowly just morphing into real-time combat anyways. The lines blur. Wildstar was kinda like this and I recall the combat being ok but everything beyond the basic concept of the combat was a trashfire so that poo poo died in record time.
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Sep 29, 2019 21:05
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The housing system seemed neat in Wildstar. Too bad it tried to be "hardcore" in regards to it's raiding system/endgame, which promptly killed the game lol.
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Sep 29, 2019 21:30
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