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Going by quick napkin math, if he paid himself .10 a word, like people are asking for, instead of this .59 figure I'd never heard anyone else use, then he'd have to pay himself about 9.5k for the whole book. How convenient that the kickstarter had 10k left over for himself, then. Sounds like he got paid after all.
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Sep 29, 2019 09:29
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It's a ridiculous number; outside of technical writing, I don't know anyone in freelance writing making more than 30 cents a word -- and that's for like, white papers and fairly expertise-heavy topics. I can't decide if he pulled it completely out of thin air, or if he took some "average" including technical writing salaries or something.
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Sep 29, 2019 09:51
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I mean if you look at what people pay writers working in a non-dead industry, 1c a word is laughable bullshit, and even 30c is a joke. http://www.meaa.org/connect/rates/
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Sep 29, 2019 10:04
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I dunno that rates that Newscorp, the New York Times, and Cosmo pay are representative of the industry at large, but fair enough -- these look to be almost exclusively top-end publications.
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Sep 29, 2019 10:07
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Obviously budgets will differ between publications and the size of the company, a murdoch newspaper has infinitely more cash behind it than OPP. I'll have a look for more creative writing style rates, unless someone has it available.
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Sep 29, 2019 10:13
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Creative stuff fairly often sticks to a range from 5 cents a word to 50 cents (mostly the lower end outside of the big publishers), unless you're well established and your books are guaranteed to sell or your name is a big draw on an anthology or whatever. Once you move into the territory of getting proper contracts it ceases to be a per word rate and becomes per piece which is a very different dynamic, of course. I used to entertain delusions of being able to make it as an author without supplementing my income with other sources like academia (...I'm going to die a pauper.)
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Sep 29, 2019 10:39
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Loomer posted:Creative stuff fairly often sticks to a range from 5 cents a word to 50 cents (mostly the lower end outside of the big publishers), unless you're well established and your books are guaranteed to sell or your name is a big draw on an anthology or whatever. Once you move into the territory of getting proper contracts it ceases to be a per word rate and becomes per piece which is a very different dynamic, of course. I used to entertain delusions of being able to make it as an author without supplementing my income with other sources like academia (...I'm going to die a pauper.) Everyone supplements their income with other sources. There are fewer full time writers than there are NBA Basketball players.
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Sep 29, 2019 10:51
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Writers should be paid based on the disability-adjusted time they spend writing, not per word. 
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Sep 29, 2019 12:55
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Cassa posted:I mean if you look at what people pay writers working in a non-dead industry, 1c a word is laughable bullshit, and even 30c is a joke. That's an Australian organization though. The US$ is worth roughly $1.47, making rates apples and oranges until you do the conversion.
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Sep 29, 2019 13:38
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Kai Tave posted:As far as I can tell, the guy's next game is called Reclaimers and it's about a bunch of Musk-like rich people trying to build space arks to go colonize Mars and escape an ecologically devastated earth, loving the earth up even more in the process, so you have to go kill them before they succeed. Fighting against the, as Joe Slowboat puts it, "armed lifeboat" contingent could make for an interesting premise for a game but it's being written by this dipshit so I have basically no real hope that the end result will be anything to write home about. That pitch sounds more eco-revolution than eco-fascism, but yeah, I have zero faith in this guy not loving it up after the way he handled his last "anti-fascist" game.
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Sep 29, 2019 14:20
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I wouldn't be surprised if he misses the point so bad you end up playing the 1%ers trying to escape Earth.
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Sep 29, 2019 14:23
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If you actually sabotage them, it causes more ecological damage, see?
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Sep 29, 2019 17:07
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In the larger freelance writing industry, it is not super rare to get over $0.50USD a word: http://whopayswriters.com/#/results Yeah, most of those companies have much bigger budgets than 95% of companies in the TG industry, but that doesn't mean better arrangements aren't possible. Revenue shares/royalties definitely seem like a good way to go for more small level companies that can't pay more than $0.20–$0.30 a word. But just like in bigger news industries, etc., the larger issue is that there are so many people willing to work for less, bringing down the valuation of everyone's labor. The only way I know that that's been combatted historically is through the organization of labor, but I don't know what the hell a successful attempt at that would look like in this field and would probably require a broader scope, like a freelancers [in general] union. With a "hobby industry" like TG, that drive to "just be included" regardless of lack of fair pay is so strong, so I'm sure no matter what is tried, there will be scabs aplenty.
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Sep 29, 2019 17:55
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Only humanity top 1% deserve access to Imagining missing the point of Total Recall so hard that you think Schwarzenegger and the revolutionaries were the villains.
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Sep 29, 2019 18:09
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I appreciate that most of y'all have your hearts in the right place, but you shouldn't impromptu boycott kickstarter until the union asks you to.
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Sep 29, 2019 19:19
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FWIW I think the people here doing the math on what would be a better pay rate for writers is approaching the topic in a healthier context than the original tweet thread that kinda lost the plot around the same issue of maybe the NYT can pay people a lot better than a TRPG firm
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Sep 29, 2019 19:23
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The last freelance writing job I took paid by the hour, rather than by the word, and my employer just had me report my hours based on research + writing time. To be honest, I was taken aback somewhat, but I guess that's the sort of thing that's possible when you're working in a real industry rather than the niche-within-a-niche that is most of the RPG world.
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Sep 29, 2019 19:27
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JMBosch posted:In the larger freelance writing industry, it is not super rare to get over $0.50USD a word: http://whopayswriters.com/#/results I was interested to see there was a post for "Dungeon and Dragons Magazine" here, because WotC can certainly afford to pay a decent rate and it'd be nice to know how much they actually pay people.  
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Sep 29, 2019 19:41
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Tulul posted:I was interested to see there was a post for "Dungeon and Dragons Magazine" here, because WotC can certainly afford to pay a decent rate and it'd be nice to know how much they actually pay people.
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Sep 29, 2019 19:49
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Adept Nightingale posted:It's a ridiculous number; outside of technical writing, I don't know anyone in freelance writing making more than 30 cents a word -- and that's for like, white papers and fairly expertise-heavy topics. I can't decide if he pulled it completely out of thin air, or if he took some "average" including technical writing salaries or something. He picked a round number and then divided it to get a per word rate. Bieeanshee posted:If you actually sabotage them, it causes more ecological damage, see? Yeah, calling it now, the game's actually about helping the 1%er's leave so you can clean up when they're gone.
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Sep 29, 2019 20:18
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Liquid Communism posted:He picked a round number and then divided it to get a per word rate. Nah, too obvious. It'll be about how the environmentalists aren't so good after all because they're also hurting the environment when they oppose the leavers' attempts to abandon the planet while stealing resources from those remaining behind.
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Sep 29, 2019 20:25
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Impermanent posted:I appreciate that most of y'all have your hearts in the right place, but you shouldn't impromptu boycott kickstarter until the union asks you to. In my case I have no outstanding kickstarter subscriptions, so this is mostly "I don't intend to sign up for any new ones." But I am curious on the theory here, it would seem like public revulsion would be desirable
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Sep 29, 2019 21:53
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Nessus posted:Why not? Because a boycott is a tool of negotiation. Removing that tool from the control of the union weakens their ability to bargain. The less control the union has over what's going on, the less they have to bargain with. E: also, because they have the most info, and when they're saying a boycott only hurts creators rather than Kickstarter, they probably know what they're talking about.
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Sep 29, 2019 21:55
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As I said on the other thread, "I think Kickstarter workers should have a union, but I also think I know better than the union and will disregard what they say if it lets me jump on my soapbox and look like a big drat hero" is kind of a lovely take. If you want to support the union, support the drat union. If you don't want to follow the union's lead on this issue, then by definition your stance isn't about supporting the union and is more about expressing your own moral indignation to make yourself feel good.
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Sep 29, 2019 22:59
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I grew up in America, this stuff ain’t always obvious. I appreciate the explanation. Thanks!
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Sep 29, 2019 23:13
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Warthur posted:As I said on the other thread, "I think Kickstarter workers should have a union, but I also think I know better than the union and will disregard what they say if it lets me jump on my soapbox and look like a big drat hero" is kind of a lovely take. Nothing obligates someone to keep doing business with a lovely company just because the union wants them to. I think it's acceptable for creators to want to support the union and keep using the platform, while it is -also- acceptable for consumers to go 'you know, I don't want anything to do with those assholes'.
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Sep 29, 2019 23:38
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Liquid Communism posted:Nothing obligates someone to keep doing business with a lovely company just because the union wants them to. Not to say there's no moral justification for withholding your pledge. Just that it disproportionately hits the creators you would otherwise want to support.
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Sep 30, 2019 00:04
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What's going to hurt kickstarter's pocketbook is if creators start going elsewhere.
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Sep 30, 2019 00:15
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JMBosch posted:What makes it a thornier issue is that, if there's something you would otherwise back if Kickstarter weren't anti-union assholes, then only 5% of withholding your pledge hurts Kickstarter, and about 90% of withholding your pledge hurts the creators. Sadly, that's capitalism working as intended. Message delivered to creators 'if you use this platform, I won't give you money that goes along to them', and to the platform itself. Framing refusing to do business with Kickstarter as an attack on creators is just what management wants, because they can use the same logic to spin any effort on the part of the union organizers as a threat to them and thus creators.
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Sep 30, 2019 00:28
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Argas posted:Nah, too obvious. It'll be about how the environmentalists aren't so good after all because they're also hurting the environment when they oppose the leavers' attempts to abandon the planet while stealing resources from those remaining behind. Soviet power + electrification of the countryside = HIGHLY problematic.
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Sep 30, 2019 01:05
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Liquid Communism posted:Nothing obligates someone to keep doing business with a lovely company just because the union wants them to.
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Sep 30, 2019 01:14
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Liquid Communism posted:Sadly, that's capitalism working as intended. Because if not, and you're trying to exert economic pressure on creators to boycott Kickstarter (which is effectively what you are trying to encourage them to do by withholding your intended pledge as long as they stay on Kickstarter), and the union has asked that creators not boycott Kickstarter, and you're framing this as an effort you are undertaking on behalf of the union as opposed to working at cross-purposes with the union... Well. Odd that I have to explain the idea of solidarity and holding the line to someone with the username "Liquid Communism".
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Sep 30, 2019 01:26
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Warthur posted:Did the union organisers ask you to do this? Amusingly my username has nothing to do with politics, and is a reference to cosmoline. Holding the line is well and good. There is no mass boycott taking place. Nobody is saying to pull projects, or pull pledges from projects. But it is absurd to expect consumers who disagree with KS' policies to feel they have to do additional new business with them while they double down.
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Sep 30, 2019 01:37
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Liquid Communism posted:But it is absurd to expect consumers who disagree with KS' policies to feel they have to do additional new business with them while they double down. It wasn't clear to me whether you were referring to additional new business (ie, pledged on stuff you previously wouldn't have) or shifting your current engagement (ie, refraining from pledging on stuff which you otherwise would have). And you're obviously free to do as you like - you're just not free to declare you're doing it for the union without people who've paid attention pointing out that the union hasn't asked for a consumer boycott. You are not doing it for the union. You're doing it out of your own personal sense of right and wrong. That's laudable in its own way so long as you don't expect to get applauded for it, and so long as you don't present it as something you are doing on behalf of a body who have asked no such thing of you. EDIT: Again, my reaction here is mainly to the behaviour of the editor of Current Affairs, who have pulled their projects and gone ahead with a boycott whilst crying "FOR THE UNION!!!" when the union's current advice to creators is the opposite. Warthur fucked around with this message at 02:28 on Sep 30, 2019 |
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Sep 30, 2019 02:25
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How about instead of "for this one specific union" it's just "because gently caress the anti-union?"
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Sep 30, 2019 02:39
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Warthur posted:It wasn't clear to me whether you were referring to additional new business (ie, pledged on stuff you previously wouldn't have) or shifting your current engagement (ie, refraining from pledging on stuff which you otherwise would have). You should pay attention to what the union folks are actually saying before speaking on their behalf too, they retweeted this from the Current Affairs editor. The stance you're talking about of them saying "hold off," in essence, was weeks ago, before their CEO's latest doubling-down response. https://twitter.com/NathanJRobinson/status/1177668530864607232?s=20
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Sep 30, 2019 02:48
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Warthur posted:It wasn't clear to me whether you were referring to additional new business (ie, pledged on stuff you previously wouldn't have) or shifting your current engagement (ie, refraining from pledging on stuff which you otherwise would have).  The general perspective would be: CONSUMERS: Don't pull your money out of established things for this reason. Backing new projects is individual discretion, but you are not being specifically advised not to. CREATORS: Don't cancel your projects currently ongoing. (I would imagine creators might opt to delay starting new projects or considering other venues, at this point, just to avoid the possibility of needing to choose between "completing the backer phase of your project" and "being a scab" in 3 weeks.) Is this accurate?
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Sep 30, 2019 03:09
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JMBosch posted:What makes it a thornier issue is that, if there's something you would otherwise back if Kickstarter weren't anti-union assholes, then only 5% of withholding your pledge hurts Kickstarter, and about 90% of withholding your pledge hurts the creators. That depends on how the creator handles things. I mean, I'm planning on only backing the Reaper Bones 5 kickstarter to the tune of $1 (i.e. the minimum possible) - and then spending about $150 on the pledge manager for the core set and shipping - which I assume Kickstarter doesn't get a cut of.
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Sep 30, 2019 03:37
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Nessus posted:Okay so I kind of want to recap the advice here because as best as I can tell all decisions are incorrect and hurt the union. That's where I'm at. I was just about to launch one to defray some costs of manufacture for some soft enamel pins, just stuff from my podcast. But though the union folks aren't specifically calling for a boycott now, I don't want to get caught up in it in two weeks or whatever. It would have been my first KS project and that's not what I want on the track record.
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Sep 30, 2019 03:57
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theironjef posted:That's where I'm at. I was just about to launch one to defray some costs of manufacture for some soft enamel pins, just stuff from my podcast. But though the union folks aren't specifically calling for a boycott now, I don't want to get caught up in it in two weeks or whatever. It would have been my first KS project and that's not what I want on the track record. The unionizing workers' pinned tweet still advises creators to not cancel current or planned projects. So if you wanna go by what they request, it's fairly clear so far. https://twitter.com/ksr_united/status/1172511951282483200
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Sep 30, 2019 04:59
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