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bradburypancakes posted:Just saw an ad for MBS on 60 Minutes coming up, sounds like he gets asked point blank if he ordered the murder. https://twitter.com/IraqiSecurity/status/988501646211678215 quote:Infographic on activities of #Iraq's Air Force from 10th June 2014 until 31st December 2017 🇮🇶 https://twitter.com/AnankeGroup/status/743373487687995392 https://twitter.com/DerekBisaccio/status/828987891523137537 https://twitter.com/IraqiSecurity/status/823479665885118466 Once you get over the strange hilarity of what is basically a civilian plane armed with Hellfire missiles, you realize that it's actually a terrifyingly effective missile delivery system when your opponent has no anti-air measures to speak of: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gpQ0GpJTLJk Video has a lot of strikes against ISIS, so yeah it's kinda NSFW.
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Sep 30, 2019 03:30
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3peat posted:A ton of vehicles, prisoners and dead bodies, it gets very NSFL at times. The pictures floating around seem to have been taken from this video I will eat every bite my entire rear end raw if some of these captured kids wearing civvies are a day older than sixteen.
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Sep 30, 2019 03:38
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Saladin Rising posted:Iraq definitely has a functioning Air Force in the anti-insurgent/anti-ISIS sense, here's a super useful tweet that lists the Iraqi Air Force's activities during the 2014-2017 fight against ISIS: This is what Eric Prince wants to create and sell to proto fascist pro Eric Prince's interest governments.
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Sep 30, 2019 03:59
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Willie Tomg posted:I will eat every bite my entire rear end raw if some of these captured kids wearing civvies are a day older than sixteen. Of the pictures I've seen of the captured soldiers some of them look quite a bit old too. Which is also really sad.
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Sep 30, 2019 04:06
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Wow. I can't believe the literal child serf army the Saudis are fielding aren't doing well against veteran guerrilla fighters.
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Sep 30, 2019 04:22
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I'm sure you'll be shocked to learn the Houthis also use child soldiers.
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Sep 30, 2019 04:38
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Sinteres posted:I'm sure you'll be shocked to learn the Houthis also use child soldiers. When a poor, weak country gets invaded by a powerful, wealthy country that is intentionally racking up civilian casualties, outside observers tend to give the weak country a pass.
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Sep 30, 2019 04:45
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I've been vocally opposed to the Saudi intervention for years, and do think the Saudis (and their US backers) should be held to a higher standard than a militia without international recognition in the middle of a civil war, but let's just not get carried away talking about the plucky heroic Houthi soldiers who do no wrong taking on the evil Saudis who field child soldiers.
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Sep 30, 2019 05:00
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Sinteres posted:I've been vocally opposed to the Saudi intervention for years, and do think the Saudis (and their US backers) should be held to a higher standard than a militia without international recognition in the middle of a civil war, but let's just not get carried away talking about the plucky heroic Houthi soldiers who do no wrong taking on the evil Saudis who field child soldiers. When the Houthis start packing kids and elders in civilian clothing like sardines into Western export MRAPs and Bradley's with blinkered uniformed officers observing, to trundle along roads reinforcing positions that'd already fallen, I will criticize them in similar terms. If that happens, then quote me if you feel the need to, but you won't because I'll say it freely. If that happens.
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Sep 30, 2019 05:08
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Charlz Guybon posted:When a poor, weak country gets invaded by a powerful, wealthy country that is intentionally racking up civilian casualties, outside observers tend to give the weak country a pass. Saudi Arabia is powerful ? I though they were utterly inept and lose every fight they get into. It's almost like propaganda tries to push two contradictory narratives, the enemy is both inferior and useless while also being an incredibly powerful threat against which all methods are allowed.
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Sep 30, 2019 05:35
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Charlz Guybon posted:When a poor, weak country gets invaded by a powerful, wealthy country that is intentionally racking up civilian casualties, outside observers tend to give the weak country a pass. Do they? Did the hardcore Islamist factions amongst the Syrian rebels get a pass from yourself or outside observers after Syria was invaded by Iran and Russia?
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Sep 30, 2019 05:54
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CeeJee posted:Saudi Arabia is powerful ? I though they were utterly inept and lose every fight they get into. They’re powerful in the sense that they’re armed and funded by the wealthiest, most militarily powerful nation in the history of our species 🤷♂️
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Sep 30, 2019 05:55
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Thump! posted:They’re powerful in the sense that they’re armed and funded by the wealthiest, most militarily powerful nation in the history of our species 🤷♂️ Pretty sure KSA isn't funded by the US. Nor is what's left of the loyalist Yemenese government KSA is trying to prop up. They buy weapons from the US and Western Europe, but that doesn't really mean they are equally powerful. Warbadger fucked around with this message at 06:04 on Sep 30, 2019 |
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Sep 30, 2019 06:00
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CeeJee posted:Saudi Arabia is powerful ? I though they were utterly inept and lose every fight they get into. I've seen a lot of stupid propaganda narratives regarding this conflict. This is not one of them though. The Saudi military is clearly inept are struggling even to defend their own territory. However it is also a military capable of projecting power deep into Yemen, that has established air and navy supremacy, that has the Houthi under siege and which more or less controls half of Yemen. Used wisely the military and financial resources of Saudi Arabia should have been able to at least force the Houthi to negotiate. Instead, they look primed to lose outright. The stupid propaganda narrative I've seen people pushing regarding this war though is that Najranis are actually secretly Yemeni nationalists and that the Houthi raids into southern Saudi Arabia are justified as acts of national liberation. Not sure how they pretzaled themselves into thinking that made sense.
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Sep 30, 2019 06:03
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Warbadger posted:Pretty sure KSA isn't funded by the US. Nor is what's left of the loyalist Yemenese government KSA is trying to prop up. They buy weapons from the US and Western Europe, but that doesn't really mean they are equally powerful. yeah no there was this whole Thing a while back where Obama told the Saudis "we'll refuel your bombers for you in Yemen as an apology for cutting a deal with Iran" look at that wonderful video of what your tax dollars are buying you and put on your patriotic anthem of choice. we sure do know how to pick a winner. (the saudi army is amazingly good at what it's designed to do, the catch is what it's designed to do is prevent any ambitious officers from couping the monarchy. their air force is alright, and is fully loaded with the latest toys. the people in charge of actually walking around on the ground their betters have recently filled with craters, well, some of them may have been taught how to reload their guns.)
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Sep 30, 2019 06:39
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Squalid posted:I've seen a lot of stupid propaganda narratives regarding this conflict. This is not one of them though. The Saudi military is clearly inept are struggling even to defend their own territory. However it is also a military capable of projecting power deep into Yemen, that has established air and navy supremacy, that has the Houthi under siege and which more or less controls half of Yemen. Used wisely the military and financial resources of Saudi Arabia should have been able to at least force the Houthi to negotiate. Instead, they look primed to lose outright. They project power with US help in many, many ways. They are being given help to project that power as they are unable to do so themselves. If the US wanted the war to end they could stop providing C4ISR and refuelling and let nature take its course.
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Sep 30, 2019 08:57
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CeeJee posted:Saudi Arabia is powerful ? I though they were utterly inept and lose every fight they get into. Oh great, now you're saying people who don't like the Saudi war in Yemen are fascists. Plucky little Saudi Arabia, how could anyone dare to claim they have a powerful military?  I mean, it's not like they're actually trying to be militarily powerful, right?  There's certainly been no massive build-up of military strength in the poor, maligned little kingdom.   (compare the dates)  is the only possible explanation for why people say the KSA military is both powerful and inept. Obviously.
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Sep 30, 2019 09:39
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if those charts continued past 2016/2017 you'd see that their expenditures continue to rise sharply KSA spends a greater percent of it's gdp on it's military than any other country on the planet, especially of countries with a substantial economy. As in the same percent as germany in 1936
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Sep 30, 2019 09:45
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Watching those videos of the Houthis ambushing the Saudi convoy - what a clusterfuck. No fightback, no defense, no air support. I'd be surprised if the Houthis took a single casualty. With morale as low as it looks from the videos it seems like the Saudis are offering no meaningful resistance to incursions into their own territory, which is astounding.
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Sep 30, 2019 10:20
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Herstory-- that's crazy. Is Yemen meant as a test run of KSA as regional military power, maybe? They may have to reconsider things after their latest adventures. Cat Mattress posted:[useful info] Also thanks for the stats.
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Sep 30, 2019 10:20
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No one really knows because KSA's administration is almost totally opaque. There's been a lot of internal media definitely intending towards an eventual confrontation with Iran (and iirc one of the last times anyone spent such a large percentage of gdp on arms... was Iraq just before the Iran Iraq war). But yeah it seemed like it was partly a test run to get critically needed military experience. Plus in theory it would serve the purpose of also pushing back Iranian regional interests, and additionally, the border there has been porous for a long time. No one expected them to be especially efficient or effective, but no one expected them to drop the ball this badly. Some of their military spending is definitely intended as a handout to the US to keep some good will, but given what is known publicly, the number one reason is ultimately as a step towards their regional ambitions.
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Sep 30, 2019 10:28
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Flayer posted:Watching those videos of the Houthis ambushing the Saudi convoy - what a clusterfuck. No fightback, no defense, no air support. I'd be surprised if the Houthis took a single casualty. With morale as low as it looks from the videos it seems like the Saudis are offering no meaningful resistance to incursions into their own territory, which is astounding. They’re basically sending a bunch of conscripts and child soldiers to get hosed, what a loving vile disaster.
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Sep 30, 2019 10:32
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The real money is not going to these guys who got captured. The orb deal was planned to break down something like this. quote:Among those listed as potential sales are: And that is not including the missile deals they have with the Chinese that are bound to be quite expensive.
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Sep 30, 2019 11:06
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Throatwarbler posted:https://twitter.com/Natsecjeff/status/1178300001480511491 I am sorry, how the gently caress does House Saud suck so bad with a military? i get its a mix of "millitary is place to stash failsons" and "no real officer corp to keep from coup" but jesus christ. these guys are fighting like the loving soviets in afganistan but somehow worse. all they know how to do is terrorize and than once the failson officer gets killed, die in their tanks/apcs. Coldwar timewarp posted:They project power with US help in many, many ways. They are being given help to project that power as they are unable to do so themselves. If the US wanted the war to end they could stop providing C4ISR and refuelling and let nature take its course. i mean they seem like a loving terrible ally even from the realpolitik angle. Charlz Guybon posted:Guardian says 500 dead, 2000 captured. No confirmation, but juat as importantly no denial from Saudi Arabia. jesus christ. what a loving shitshow.
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Sep 30, 2019 11:10
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Saladin Rising posted:Once you get over the strange hilarity of what is basically a civilian plane armed with Hellfire missiles, you realize that it's actually a terrifyingly effective missile delivery system when your opponent has no anti-air measures to speak of: edit: I thought it may have been because they're using sun-glare as cover, but now I'm not sure Cable Guy fucked around with this message at 11:31 on Sep 30, 2019 |
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Sep 30, 2019 11:16
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Dapper_Swindler posted:I am sorry, how the gently caress does House Saud suck so bad with a military? i get its a mix of "millitary is place to stash failsons" and "no real officer corp to keep from coup" but jesus christ. these guys are fighting like the loving soviets in afganistan but somehow worse. all they know how to do is terrorize and than once the failson officer gets killed, die in their tanks/apcs. Nah, way more similar to the Soviet army in the Winter War
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Sep 30, 2019 11:37
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Charlz Guybon posted:Nah, way more similar to the Soviet army in the Winter War that too.
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Sep 30, 2019 11:51
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Charlz Guybon posted:Nah, way more similar to the Soviet army in the Winter War Well, worse really. Because the Soviets eventually managed to squeak out a face saving victory of sorts from that one when Stalin sacked Voroshilov and replaced him with someone who atleast knew how to leverage the advantages the Soviets did possess, that mostly being numerical superiority (which didn't count for that much in the conditions present and with Soviet command and control in a state of disarray) and artillery (which did count for much and properly applied did break Finnish resistance). The similarity is kind of interesting though, in that the successes of their opponent (Finland and the Houthis) is more due to the epic incompetence and disarray of the Soviets/Saudis than anything extraordinary about the former* (though in both cases you're dealing with forces that were fighting on their home turf, which had some experience in unconventional warfare and fought in terrain/conditions which heavily favored the defender). *I often get the impressions that many believe that the Finnish forces were these expertly trained elite infantry, and that's not really true, many of their soldiers were hastily called up reservists and teenage draftees and they were severly lacking in heavier equipment and though they had some good weapons they didn't really have that much in the way of equipment. The explanation for their performance lies in the facotrs briefly summarized above, and it almost cannot be overstated just how awful a state the Soviet military was in, particularly as regards their officer corps. Then there were also specific problems with how the guys in charge of this specific campaign did things, such as attacking in winter, but making next to no preparations for this in terms of equipment, tactics or strategy. There's a good reason why the Soviets started doing better, even with their shitshow of an army at the time, when they removed the guys who had been responsible for the first period of utter disaster. Randarkman fucked around with this message at 12:26 on Sep 30, 2019 |
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Sep 30, 2019 12:17
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Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:yeah no there was this whole Thing a while back where Obama told the Saudis "we'll refuel your bombers for you in Yemen as an apology for cutting a deal with Iran" Yes, I've heard this dumb take before. Providing aerial refueling does not equal funding the KSA or providing direct military support ala Russia/Iran in Syria. The Kurds in Syria and Iraqi government (ostensibly an Iranian ally) have received and are receiving vast amounts of support both militarily and monetarily if you need to see what that looks like. Neither are especially "powerful" despite that support. Warbadger fucked around with this message at 12:38 on Sep 30, 2019 |
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Sep 30, 2019 12:31
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Warbadger posted:Yes, I've heard this dumb take before. Providing aerial refueling does not equal funding the KSA or providing direct military support ala Russia/Iran in Syria. While I agree about the not equaling funding part, I don't really about the military support. The logistical support the US is providing might not be as obvious but it is crucial for the Saudi war in Yemen and without it the Saudis and their coalition probably couldn't continue the war.
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Sep 30, 2019 12:47
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Randarkman posted:While I agree about the not equaling funding part, I don't really about the military support. The logistical support the US is providing might not be as obvious but it is crucial for the Saudi war in Yemen and without it the Saudis and their coalition probably couldn't continue the war. KSA fighter-bombers can definitely make the round trip to/from Yemen without refueling. Probably not while loitering for as long or while based way up North, or while carrying quite as many bombs that trip, but the war effort definitely does not depend on that logistical support. Either way the US providing tanker aircraft to the KSA should not mean you give the Houthis a free pass on poo poo like child soldiers or their own attacks against civilians. You don't have to pretend either side are the good guys.
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Sep 30, 2019 13:08
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Warbadger posted:KSA fighter-bombers can definitely make the round trip to/from Yemen without refueling. Probably not while loitering for as long or while based way up North, or while carrying quite as many bombs that trip, but the war effort definitely does not depend on that logistical support. Well one side isn’t doing anything horrible, and the other is trying to starve them into submission with the aid and support of our governments. I can say there is a good guy and a bad guy. Before the IS comparison, it doesn’t hold water...at all. You say it’s just aerial refuelling, but you know that more is being provided for on the C4ISR front. What we don’t know is whatever additional aid is being provided behind the scenes, but tell me with a straight face that what we know about is all they are helping with. Their planes are being maintained on the ground in Saudi Arabia with the aid of western defence companies, this is a fact. Additionally, yes, time on station matters. A ton. As you know. They have a free pass from me until the blockade ends and the worst humanitarian crisis of this century is over. Their own attacks on civilians? Which amount to what compared to Saudi and Emirati attacks on their civilians in addition to a campaign of starvation and collective punishment. With our support. We don’t need to critique the Houthi’s, we have no power over them at all. What we can do is critique our governments and their proxies, and try to stop it.
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Sep 30, 2019 13:30
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Warbadger posted:KSA fighter-bombers can definitely make the round trip to/from Yemen without refueling. Probably not while loitering for as long or while based way up North, or while carrying quite as many bombs that trip, but the war effort definitely does not depend on that logistical support.
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Sep 30, 2019 14:22
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In penal law, an accomplice (say, the getaway driver) gets the same punishment as whoever perpetrates a crime, even if not present at the time. The getaway driver gets trialed for murder if the robber shoots a hostage. Penal law doesn't apply here, but I think it makes sense that, over the years, all legal systems have accepted that principle.
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Sep 30, 2019 15:23
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Warbadger posted:KSA fighter-bombers can definitely make the round trip to/from Yemen without refueling. Probably not while loitering for as long or while based way up North, or while carrying quite as many bombs that trip, but the war effort definitely does not depend on that logistical support. Population Of Nation Being Genocided Were "No Angels," reports local man
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Sep 30, 2019 15:36
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Flayer posted:KSA would not be able to maintain any kind of naval blockade on Yemen alone. Without the US Navy providing support Iran would have been able to freely smuggle any number of weapons to the Houthis and this war would have been over years ago, with every KSA naval vessel at the bottom of the sea thanks to Iranian anti-ship missiles. The war would be over, except for the insurgency as 90% of the country is Sunni.
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Sep 30, 2019 15:41
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Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:Population Of Nation Being Genocided Were "No Angels," reports local man This is where a simplistic desire to see black hats and white hats really dumbs down arguments. The Saudis are bad guys for what they've done to Yemen, and they should stop, but that doesn't mean the Houthis are good guys, or that they're the embodiment of the will of the Yemeni people.
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Sep 30, 2019 15:46
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Sinteres posted:This is where a simplistic desire to see black hats and white hats really dumbs down arguments. The Saudis are bad guys for what they've done to Yemen, and they should stop, but that doesn't mean the Houthis are good guys, or that they're the embodiment of the will of the Yemeni people. iunno i'm pretty comfortable proclaiming the side committing genocide in the name of waving their dicks around to be the officially sanctioned Bad Guys ymmv, and all
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Sep 30, 2019 15:52
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Sinteres posted:This is where a simplistic desire to see black hats and white hats really dumbs down arguments. The Saudis are bad guys for what they've done to Yemen, and they should stop, but that doesn't mean the Houthis are good guys, or that they're the embodiment of the will of the Yemeni people.
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Sep 30, 2019 15:52
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Sinteres posted:This is where a simplistic desire to see black hats and white hats really dumbs down arguments. The Saudis are bad guys for what they've done to Yemen, and they should stop, but that doesn't mean the Houthis are good guys, or that they're the embodiment of the will of the Yemeni people. Where in this world of oligarchs and exploitative nation states IS the will of the people being embodied, exactly? Who is actually a good guy they're being compared to? Rojava? What counts?
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