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Nemesis Of Moles posted:I've said in threads before that this is totally fine and I even encourage it. Make your choices with who you wanna work with, absolutely. I think this is fair too, FWIW. Gaiman's got a huge platform and should be more careful about the impact of what he says. I apologize for being somewhat cranky about this. The dude yelling loudest on Twitter phrased this as a consent issue, which is pretty damned repellent.
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Sep 30, 2019 00:03
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Thanlis posted:I think this is fair too, FWIW. Gaiman's got a huge platform and should be more careful about the impact of what he says. It's all good, it's a rough day for everyone and we're all struggling to support the workers best we can
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Sep 30, 2019 00:16
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Yeah I'm with Nemesis of Moles, you can't tell individual people "oh you HAVE to use Kickstarter until the union says otherwise," but people with a disproportionately influential platform should probably be letting the actual union set the pace of what they should be calling for. There's a difference between any given individual backer or creator deciding they can't in good conscience support Kickstarter and A Very Famous Person taking to twitter and rallying people behind a boycott that has not formally been called for yet, undercutting the union's actual attempts to leverage a boycott as part of the bargaining process.
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Sep 30, 2019 00:21
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Quidthulhu posted:Not when the other option is actively buying into a frame being pushed by management, that of “if I don’t use Kickstarter normally, it will hurt creators.” That’s literally managements argument as to why the union shouldn’t exist and why they are actively pushing against organization efforts.
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Sep 30, 2019 01:17
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Kai Tave posted:Yeah I'm with Nemesis of Moles, you can't tell individual people "oh you HAVE to use Kickstarter until the union says otherwise," but people with a disproportionately influential platform should probably be letting the actual union set the pace of what they should be calling for. We're at least agreed that if the union says "Don't do X for the time being" and people go "I'ma do X" then the people saying "I'ma do X" aren't really putting the union's interests and strategic position at the forefront of their decision-making, right? This is exactly what Current Affairs are doing in response to this - they're taking their ball and going home and making a big song and dance about how they're doing it for the union when as creators they're doing the exact thing - a boycott - that the union didn't ask for. Warthur fucked around with this message at 01:21 on Sep 30, 2019 |
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Sep 30, 2019 01:18
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It undermines the unions bargaining position yeah. Treat it as situation normal until the union wants something specific imho.
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Sep 30, 2019 01:35
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Warthur posted:If you've decided that the general principle of not supporting anti-union companies overrides the specific principle of supporting the Kickstarter union by co-ordinating any action you take with their calls to action, that's great - but I think you should own it and the fact that you're following your own ethical compass, not the union's guidance. I’m speaking here as someone who was part of a bargaining team last year in a public school system that nearly went on strike, having spoken at length during that process with labor staff who knew what they were talking about in terms of effective organization campaigns. If Kickstarter management’s position is “the unionization effort is impacting creators abilities to do what they do best - create - and that is because they are creating an adversarial nature when we just want to work together,” then that’s their frame. It is the position they have taken to lobby public and internal support to their side - which is inherently anti-union. If your bottom line is “I’ll do what the union tells me to do,” that’s fine. I’m glad you’re supporting labor unions, and since they haven’t called for a boycott, you are welcome to make a call on how you’re comfortable supporting them. But from my perspective having been in the weeds of this before, I see this whole development today as the union presenting their frame of “unions are the only way to ensure workers have their rights, and this type of reaction from management in blaming us for creators losing folks is consistent with their anti-union tendencies” in contrast to management’s, and reacting to that by saying “well, it IS hurting creators, here’s my evidence, so we shouldn’t boycott yet” is only reinforcing the frame management has put forward. I wouldn’t be wearing my labor organizing hat if I didn’t point that out to you.
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Sep 30, 2019 01:49
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without being confident one way or another about whether boycotting is a good idea, there are very good reasons why the union would be reluctant to call for a boycott even if evidence that the company is hurting from their anti-union position would help the union
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Sep 30, 2019 01:59
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Yeah, and as I pointed out elsewhere, consumers not bringing new pledges to the site is not a boycott. A boycott would look like users pulling existing pledges and creators pulling projects so KS management can see the money their actions have cost them.
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Sep 30, 2019 02:01
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Liquid Communism posted:Yeah, and as I pointed out elsewhere, consumers not bringing new pledges to the site is not a boycott. Not bringing new pledges absolutely is a boycott and 100% Kickstarter will be able to see the impact of that.
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Sep 30, 2019 02:07
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Lots of goons doing mental gymnastics to justify crossing a picket line itt
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Sep 30, 2019 03:34
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don't break with the union and call it solidarity. its the simplest thing in the world to just wait for them to call it.
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Sep 30, 2019 03:48
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Here's the guy they fired for union organizing specifically telling me my stance isn't crossing a picket line https://twitter.com/taylordotbiz/status/1173410397220683776?s=19 ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Sep 30, 2019 03:51
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NTRabbit posted:Lots of goons doing mental gymnastics to justify crossing a picket line itt Here is the thing that everyone seems to forget when stuff like this happens: Ultimately, the union wants the company to survive and prosper. The union needs to play hardball now, as they don’t have a lot of negotiating options when the company takes a hardline anti-union stance. But if the company loses too much business that they have to have layoffs or the company closes, then the union will have failed in its mission to get the workers better compensation/benefits.
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Sep 30, 2019 03:51
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well i wont be backing anything ever again on kickstarter or at least so long as the CEO of kickstarter is a talkative shitbag I won't back anything on kickstarter again Doorknob Slobber fucked around with this message at 04:00 on Sep 30, 2019 |
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Sep 30, 2019 03:57
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NTRabbit posted:Lots of goons doing mental gymnastics to justify crossing a picket line itt If the union hasn't called for a strike or a boycott, there is no picket line?
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Sep 30, 2019 03:58
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NTRabbit posted:Lots of goons doing mental gymnastics to justify crossing a picket line itt Except a picket line hasn't been called for by the union, as people have repeatedly stated, you absolute putz.
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Sep 30, 2019 04:15
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Orvin posted:Here is the thing that everyone seems to forget when stuff like this happens: Ultimately, the union wants the company to survive and prosper. Management has all the power. If they choose to let collective action / a boycott / a strike bankrupt their company sooner than they would give workers rights they deserve, that’s kinda on them?
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Sep 30, 2019 04:15
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Also people itt being hard on folks saying “I’m not gonna support Kickstarter during this time” why subsequently using the defense of “the union leadership has said I can decide how I want to act on this issue!” is a pretty bad take
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Sep 30, 2019 04:17
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Quidthulhu posted:Also people itt being hard on folks saying “I’m not gonna support Kickstarter during this time” why subsequently using the defense of “the union leadership has said I can decide how I want to act on this issue!” is a pretty bad take If you want to personally decide to not use Kickstarter any longer, that's on you. The issue is people acting like their decision to do so is specifically in support of the union/the workers...because it's not. The union has specifically not called for a boycott yet.
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Sep 30, 2019 10:38
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jivjov posted:If you want to personally decide to not use Kickstarter any longer, that's on you. The issue is people acting like their decision to do so is specifically in support of the union/the workers...because it's not. The union has specifically not called for a boycott yet. The union is not going to call for a boycott, because the instant they do everyone will be fired and forced into expensive legal theatrics, and within 2 weeks all the same people doing backflips to excuse it now are going to forget it ever happened and keep clicking on that back project button.
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Sep 30, 2019 13:26
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unions call for boycotts literally all the time and the organizers have said that when that's the choice they'll let us know. I dunno why people keep arguing for this "read between the lines" thing when the actual organizers are openly saying, in plain english, both in public twitter threads and right now in my actual Twitter DMs the opposite of what you're saying. one of the reasons its good to wait till you boycott something till after a union actually calls for it is because its a lot easier to protect workers from retaliatory actions if there's a clear and obvious line from any firings back to an act of union organizing - unlike random and disorganized action which can be retaliated against a lot easier its just mad weird to get accused of being a scab or of crossing a picket line after spending like my entire working life as a union advocate, organizer and rep because I'm repeating what the actual organizers of the union have directly told me Nemesis Of Moles fucked around with this message at 13:55 on Sep 30, 2019 |
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Sep 30, 2019 13:45
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People get heated all the time with things like this. Anything that they feel personally vested in is going to be like this and will create animosity. I'm sure you've seen similar things in other social justice circles where someone who doesn't go far enough in another person's eyes is almost branded as more of an enemy than the people actively trying to cause problems. Anyway, watching this closely. We're in contract negotiations at my university right now and its a really weird time for me personally because today is my last day in the union. Tomorrow I am officially management, and while I will always be pro-union its weird now more or less being forced to not engage with it at my place of employment.
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Sep 30, 2019 14:11
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They aren't calling for a boycott but neither have they anywhere said that you should keep backing poo poo. If you think they have, you are reading it wrong. They are going into a vote where management is trying to frame the union as being bad for the company. Obviously calling for a boycott would just let management say "See? They are trying to hurt the company, just like we said." So no, they absolutely can't call for a boycott yet. Both of the extremes here selectively reading certain tweets is a bit silly. Yes, they support creators putting up planned projects. And yes, they also support creators pulling projects (just a bit less vocally, which is perfectly understandable). They have tweets clearly showing that both things are true. So make whatever choice you want. Bickering over who is showing more solidarity is pretty poor solidarity. I for one support all of you ornery bastards, using KS or not. I'm pretty confident the union won't want to call for a boycott until after their vote at the earliest. Does someone with more experience in the US know what the timeline looks like for that? How long does it take to set up these votes? I have lots of union experience, but all of it in Canada where the laws are different. Me, I just backed Vincent and Meg Baker's latest project, which looks pretty cool, so if you are still using Kickstarter then you should check it out and we could talk about it in this thread.
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Sep 30, 2019 14:27
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Homunculus Assembly Line looks pretty cool, and afaik Beau Sheldon is standup people who makes good content. I like the idea of this kind of round robin art creation process and the mystery of what exactly is gonna come out the other end - a lot of the artists are cool as heck people too. https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/briecs/homunculus-assembly-line
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Sep 30, 2019 14:33
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Yeah, that Fae circus game from the Bakerses looks goddamn amazing. Just reading the playbooks got me hooked, it's really evocative and tells you exactly what sort of stories the game is going to be good at.
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Sep 30, 2019 15:24
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Echophonic posted:Yeah, that Fae circus game from the Bakerses looks goddamn amazing. Just reading the playbooks got me hooked, it's really evocative and tells you exactly what sort of stories the game is going to be good at. https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/226674021/under-hollow-hills if anyone's wondering.
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Sep 30, 2019 16:34
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But if we boycott Kickstarter, this incredible game will never fund!  Conservatives vs. Liberals Board Game https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/edtrice/conservatives-vs-liberals-board-game quote:In the United States, we presently live under a great deal of political strife. Our country is more divided now than during the Civil War, according to Historians and the few non-biased Political Science sources. The Media has turned into a Propaganda Machine, distorting the 1st Amendment into "The right to lie" as required by the advertisers who fund their broadcasts. We are being spoon-fed "narratives" instead of being presented with true investigative journalism.
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Sep 30, 2019 17:52
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Imagine a scream shooting out smaller screams until a cacophony of noise drowns out all thought.
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Sep 30, 2019 18:01
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Then make it into a board game.
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Sep 30, 2019 18:05
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 And squinting at that board, I can see a Soros spot next to the liberal starting square. And at the bottom left of the image of the board is the "Trump Card" which includes Donald Trump in a magic card. Looks like a fine piece of trash here.
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Sep 30, 2019 18:07
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Should have gone with fair-and-balanced instead of well-thought-out.
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Sep 30, 2019 18:34
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Under Hollow Hills looks rad, been eagerly anticipating this since it was shown to backers
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Sep 30, 2019 18:40
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JazzFlight posted:But if we boycott Kickstarter, this incredible game will never fund! finally, a game for the ben garrison fan in your family
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Sep 30, 2019 18:50
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I wonder the extent to which there's a false binary of "Keep using Kickstarter as you were a month ago and support the union" or "not support Kickstarter and you're not helping the union." I want to support the union. But Strickler isn't saying "Gee, our wages are high enough." He's saying he won't recognize a voted on union. Backing something for $100 means I'm buying him a cup of coffee. It's not about supporting the union, it's about giving money to someone who espouses those opinions leaves a sour taste in my mouth.
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Sep 30, 2019 19:26
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Okay, I keep seeing "Kickstarter refuses any union effort" but the CEO's letter from the VF article says if the majority of eligible members vote for it they'll enter collective bargaining even though they don't want to. This isn't great, but it's not the same thing as "well there will never be a union so goodbye forever Kickstarter." Is there something I'm missing? While this has been ongoing since March, it's only become a big thing for like a week, which is a little short-term for any union effort to get anything done in the meantime. As supporters of the union we need to give negotiations time to fail before abandoning them and thereby weakening their support. poo poo takes time.
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Sep 30, 2019 19:56
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the binary here is the classic liberal move of "my personal feelings are synonymous with political action" being translated into a situation where they clearly aren't, and a bunch of people getting very mad about this obvious gap between what they feel should be true (immediate boycotting, as i am so moved to do right now because my sense of right and wrong has been violated, is precisely in alignment with the union's goals) and what is true (the union, for its own reasons and goals which are unknowable to you unless you personally work at kickstarter, has not asked for a boycott yet, and your own personal boycott will have a null to negative effect on them and their goals) Like the big thing about personal boycott is that we're primed to do it because TTRPGs is a small enough space that you can concertedly boycott or yell a harasser or nazi out of the industry, or at least into a corner. But that attitude absolutely runs into a wall against a company that isn't working in a cottage industry that is actually a miniature of a cottage inside of a smaller-than-ordinary cottage. Kickstarter genuinely won't notice you, doesn't care about you, doesn't even care about your podcast's 10k stretch goal for scratch and and sniff stickers. Even the people who they may care about, like Neil Gaiman, aren't actually acting in concert with the union, so the union can't say "be good or we'll get our friends like neil gaiman to stop supporting you" because gaiman has already done the dang thing regardless of what the union wanted. Who knows if he'll ever come back, what his deal is, etc. He's not tied to the union in some sort of "i pledge to do [x] until [y]" kind of way. back or don't back things as like a salve for your conscience if you want but be honest with yourself about the fact that it won't do anything.
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Sep 30, 2019 20:01
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That Old Tree posted:Okay, I keep seeing "Kickstarter refuses any union effort" but the CEO's letter from the VF article says if the majority of eligible members vote for it they'll enter collective bargaining even though they don't want to. This isn't great, but it's not the same thing as "well there will never be a union so goodbye forever Kickstarter." Is there something I'm missing? While this has been ongoing since March, it's only become a big thing for like a week, which is a little short-term for any union effort to get anything done in the meantime. As supporters of the union we need to give negotiations time to fail before abandoning them and thereby weakening their support. poo poo takes time. they'll negotiate with the union if a majority of members vote to form one because they have to according to us labor laws.
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Sep 30, 2019 20:01
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Impermanent posted:they'll negotiate with the union if a majority of members vote to form one because they have to according to us labor laws. Yes, correct, which is presumably why he said that. I am aware.
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Sep 30, 2019 20:06
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That Old Tree posted:Yes, correct, which is presumably why he said that. I am aware. oh sorry, i thought you were asking a different question my b.
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