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Interview of Robert Kurvitz by Rob Kershaw: https://www.jumpdashroll.com/article/disco-elysium-is-this-generations-planescape-torment Not particularly spoilery.
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Oct 1, 2019 14:38
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DACK FAYDEN posted:Super logical for a cop to wear this What are you on about, I'm totally wearing that hat.
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Oct 2, 2019 02:30
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https://www.pcgamesn.com/disco-elysium/disco-elysium-detective-politicsquote:One situation requires you to break into a harbour, but the gates are guarded by a towering figure who has been terrifying the local striking dock workers. Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.
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Oct 2, 2019 08:58
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The game lets you play a left-wing, right-wing or non-political character with many different combinations of ideologies, including a racist homophobe, a communist or a market liberal (or liberast as they are known in game universe). If you're not careful with your dialogue choices, your character could become an equivalent of Maga-hat wearer. The character's political views do not represent the devs political views, or necessarily those of the player. You will be roleplaying a character with opinions that may be damned stupid at times. There will be consequences. The Rhetoric skill makes your character more political, Endurance more fascist, some other skill was more socialist etc.
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Oct 2, 2019 09:10
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I mean, I'm more concerned with the fact that the first example the dev pulled out of a hat for "how we handle race in our games" is a scary "very black" man who happens to have "ideas" about race. Does it necessarily mean the game will be poo poo at handling these topics? No, but between this, the way another thought cabinet thought is named "Inexplicable Feminist Agenda", the lack of gender selection, I think there is reason to be *skeptical*.
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Oct 2, 2019 09:17
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I'm definitely still very eager to give this a chance. It could be brilliant but in some ways, like the afforementioned, still kinda fraught. I'm willing to find out at least, which is better than most games these days that make some serious missteps re: feminism, since those don't tend to have any sort of smarts to them otherwise.
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Oct 2, 2019 09:21
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FYI, the devs are more left-wing (and from a right-wing leaning post-communist country, I believe) in their stated political views. The opinions of your fuckup character will get him into trouble if you go to extremes in the thought cabinet. They are exploring topics that might go under the skin of the player, I mean the heart of the game is a psychological, internal dialogue between the darkest parts of the mind. You can expect to have some messed up thoughts popping up. I think you have to spend skill points to get rid of a thought that is causing trouble. Quite a balancing act for how you want your character to be.
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Oct 2, 2019 09:23
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Fair Bear Maiden posted:Does it necessarily mean the game will be poo poo at handling these topics? No, but between this, the way another thought cabinet thought is named "Inexplicable Feminist Agenda", the lack of gender selection, I think there is reason to be *skeptical*. There are a couple of things that give me some hope, though: The devs did say in the previous interview linked here that they were mostly left wing (in Estonia, so take that with a grain of salt), and just identifying yourself as such is pretty big (and they are aware that they are going to get into trouble for that, so it doesn't seem they'll be pandering to the MAGA crowd). Also, when they were talking about skills, where too much investment in any one of them is a bad thing, fascism, racism and sexism are squarely on the "bad" side of things. But yeah, agreed. That example? Bad example. Maybe it makes sense in game, but at face value it's pretty bad.
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Oct 2, 2019 09:47
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Watch the main character put religion into his though cabinet and start a heresy.
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Oct 2, 2019 09:51
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Glad to see the handwringing has started before the game is even loving out. Gonna go talk about this in cspam.
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Oct 2, 2019 10:17
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Before we (invest too many points in Rhetoric and) poo poo up the thread with politics, we should wait for the game to actually come out, so we can judge it for what it is, not what we think it might be like. If you are on the fence about the writing, wait for first impressions from some people who try the game. All previews have been full of praise so far, we shall see for ourselves in 13 days.
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Oct 2, 2019 11:03
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Here's some quotes re. game politics so everyone knows what they're getting into: Jumpdashroll interview article posted:The game also refuses to pull punches in the lengths to which players can roleplay. You can make your detective become a racist, a lecher, or side with a homophobic NPC, and then you can follow through with those choices in the game. Yet the reason some players are likely to feel uncomfortable is because of the realism in the writing rather than the overarching themes. Characters in other games over the years have been allowed to portray racist values or actions but the difference is that the races are, for example, elves, or dwarves, or the Geth. Something a little closer to home is likely to have a far deeper impact on players, but Kurvitz assures us that making repugnant choices will have consequences for the character as well. Each decision needs to be actively pursued by the player; nothing is thrust upon them. If you want to ignore rather than engage with unpalatable NPCs, you absolutely can do. Kurvitz is keen to point out that writing for a racist character doesn’t make either the writers or the player racist — the game is simply providing the freedom to follow their character down a rabbit hole and suffer the consequences. In a perverse way, the game may actually be providing a sandbox for handling uncomfortable situations and in doing so educating players on what is and isn’t acceptable in today’s society. Not everyone is going to like it, but as Kurvitz says, unless they are determined to shape their protagonist in that manner they aren’t even going to see the content they deem “too risqué” for their tastes. Robert Kurvitz posted:“I can’t write without writing political jokes,” Kurvitz comments. “Politics is so alive with tension and language. As a writer, I’m drawn to interesting worlds and people interacting with each other, and there was no other way than to make it political. The game is set in a modern world. <...> A world without politics is a hollow world. But my suggestion to video game developers would be to not do it. You get into poo poo with politics; there’s almost no upside. I would have liked not to talk about these things head-on because they take so much playtesting and writing not to gently caress it up. If you go into it and you don’t know what you’re doing, you’re not going to come out well.” I mean, I don't know to what degree of success it'll end up being handled overall, and how deservedly or non-deservedly controversial the entire thing will turn out to be, but they definitely have put thought into it. Also, in response to whether studio's Estonian roots played a part in protagonist being an underdog rather than a Chosen One: Robert Kurvitz posted:“For me, definitely,” he nods. “The global culture is an empire culture. This is a culture made by winners on boats who sailed to new worlds and then committed genocide. I come from a lineage of serfs — which is a nicer word for slaves — who were freed ten years before the American slaves. My experience of western capitalism comes after the fall of the Soviet Union, which was a really, really bad time for people in eastern Europe in the 90s, whichever way you slice it. So, I never felt like a piece that fit into the western scene, I felt like I was more of a Soviet person for some reason. So naturally, I wasn’t going to make a game where I stepped into ceramic armour with a FAL automatic rifle and win. I was going to make one where you’re heartbroken and fighting against yourself and the world.” I'm of the same age as he and come from a similar background (growing up in Eastern Europe in the 90s), and not gonna lie, this hit me hard, 'cause what he says about his perspective on western vs Soviet identity divide, not being part of the "empire culture" etc. is dead-on how I've felt all my life (though it probably doesn't help that I spent over a decade living in what is now Brexit Britain) and it's not something I hear explored much, if at all, in English-speaking media where most Eastern European representation is still at the level of "lol Boris" and other Cold War Russian-related jokes. Which tbf is also why, though I get where the "oh, yet another white dude protagonist" complaints are coming from, I feel they're kinda dismissive and missing the forest for the trees in this case, because even all the game-y reasons why implementing protagonist customization would be trickier and more resource-consuming here than in most other RPGs aside, it's not as if the market is flooded with games that are written from Eastern European perspective without trying to mold it into something westernized. I mean, even Witcher, despite being deeply steeped in Polish aesthetics and folklore, is a fairly straightforward low fantasy palatable to the west. Edit: Lol, sorry, SlightlyMad - hope this isn't too much of making GBS threads thread with politics - just thought it'd be nice to have some actual quotes for full disclosure of what the game aims to do and is about, and pre-emptively give people who are not into it time to bail before it actually comes out. Perhaps a hamster fucked around with this message at 11:13 on Oct 2, 2019 |
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Oct 2, 2019 11:09
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I am going to create a libertarian-socialist cop and punch racists. It's going to be rad. E: Perhaps a hamster posted:I'm of the same age as he and come from a similar background (growing up in Eastern Europe in the 90s), and not gonna lie, this hit me hard, 'cause what he says about his perspective on western vs Soviet identity divide, not being part of the "empire culture" etc. is dead-on how I've felt all my life (though it probably doesn't help that I spent over a decade living in what is now Brexit Britain) and it's not something I hear explored much, if at all, in English-speaking media where most Eastern European representation is still at the level of "lol Boris" and other Cold War Russian-related jokes. I have no idea if your Estonian, but have you read his novel? I suspect it'll give us a good idea how they're going to handle these things, but obviously, reading a book only currently available in Estonian is pretty tricky for most of us! CottonWolf fucked around with this message at 11:14 on Oct 2, 2019 |
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Oct 2, 2019 11:09
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I too will see if I can punch racists in game, though I will play every combo of skills/thoughts I can think of, to see where it lands the character. I expect to play this through several times over the years. And Perhaps a hamster , your perspective is appreciated. I am sure this game will not be for everyone, but I fully expect it to be interesting.
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Oct 2, 2019 11:24
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I'd like to point out for those concerned about the racism angle is that your partner (who from the demo at least, is the second most important character) in the game is a different race to you, and a significant part of the game is how you interact with him. I can't really say more without spoilers, but I am very reassured from my demo experiences.
Fangz fucked around with this message at 11:34 on Oct 2, 2019 |
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Oct 2, 2019 11:25
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I would be confident from what I've read of the dev blogs that this game is being written from a thoughtful confident perspective and its going to give you the option to be a dirtbag if you want to, like most RPGs. You're just not going to be chaotic evil, you're going to be a pathetic jerk on a power trip who has indigestion and a drug habit. Perhaps a hamster posted:Great stuff Thanks for this, you've essentially covered what I was too lazy to go back and find.
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Oct 2, 2019 11:37
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Really pumped to play this game. It's looking fantastic and I love the sense of humour we're seeing so far. I'm kind of getting Lukyanenko vibes with the eastern european bleakness and magical realism. Going to break so so many lefty faces!
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Oct 2, 2019 11:49
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CottonWolf posted:I have no idea if your Estonian, but have you read his novel? I suspect it'll give us a good idea how they're going to handle these things, but obviously, reading a book only currently available in Estonian is pretty tricky for most of us! Unrelated, here's some non-political stuff that makes me excited for the game:  Look at it. It tells you the location of every repeatable skill check you tried/failed/came across, whether you can redo it and, if not, which skill to increase if so. How user-friendly of an idea is this?
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Oct 2, 2019 11:57
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Vonkrieger posted:Going to break so so many lefty faces! lol gently caress off shitheel.
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Oct 2, 2019 11:58
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Perhaps a hamster posted:
  
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Oct 2, 2019 12:05
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SelenicMartian posted:Watch the main character put religion into his though cabinet and start a heresy.  Robert Kurvitz posted:We accommodate for every stupid little thing that you wanna do.
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Oct 2, 2019 12:21
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That is definitely going in my thought cabinet. Paranatural Apocalypse cop would be great fun. All in on Inland Empire/Shivers/Interfacing. "No, you don't get it, man. The killer came from Elsewhere. AND THIS IS JUST THE START!" CottonWolf fucked around with this message at 12:28 on Oct 2, 2019 |
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Oct 2, 2019 12:26
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I also winced a bit at the whole "black person with theories on race" line but that's because it's hard to give game developers the benefit of the doubt because that sort of situation is so commonly mishandled. Meanwhile most of the writing and development philosophy we've seen has been nothing but extremely thoughtful, and given the recent cowardice of a lot of devs, it's refreshing to see someone speak frankly and loudly about how political their game is. The idea of allowing a player to be a racist monster is certainly a minefield that I'm hoping they can navigate, and I'm not yet convinced they can do it entirely without falling into the typical morally ambiguous protagonist trap where the text says they're a bad guy and idiots be like "gently caress YEAH WHAT A COOL GUY #TheEmperorWasRight" - but his comments imply that this is going to be a less America-centric exploration of race and politics issues, which has me pretty excited, since it's extremely not very often you see that perspective in games.
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Oct 2, 2019 12:55
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Hakkesshu posted:...where the text says they're a bad guy and idiots be like "gently caress YEAH WHAT A COOL GUY #TheEmperorWasRight"... That's not a problem with a text though. If the text explicitly says one thing, and everyone chooses to ignore it, don't blame the text.
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Oct 2, 2019 13:02
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CottonWolf posted:That's not a problem with a text though. If the text explicitly says one thing, and everyone chooses to ignore it, don't blame the text. Enh, it can be a problem with the text. The text can explicitly say one thing, but imply another. But I don't think it's a concern here because again, I don't think this game is a power fantasy.
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Oct 2, 2019 13:07
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CottonWolf posted:That's not a problem with a text though. If the text explicitly says one thing, and everyone chooses to ignore it, don't blame the text. Nah, there are definitely works that want to have their cake and eat it too by trying to make a character flawed and villainous while simultaneously making them the most badass, smartest person that ever existed. Rick and Morty being a recent example, but it's a problem in a lot of video games specifically.
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Oct 2, 2019 13:32
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Perhaps a hamster posted:Nah, Lithuanian, which unfortunately is a completely different language family. Book's English translation was finished couple years back according to one of the old interviews, so must be in final proofing/editing stages by now, but they've been holding off the release due to not wanting to spoil much about the world before the game comes out, IIRC. Although that obviously doesn't help if you wanted to check out the writing before playing the game. thats cool
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Oct 2, 2019 14:00
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listen up nerds, I'll say it game gon be gud
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Oct 2, 2019 14:08
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Perhaps a hamster posted:
grate deceiver posted:listen up nerds, I'll say it 
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Oct 2, 2019 14:31
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Southpaugh posted:lol gently caress off shitheel. lol you gently caress off oval office.
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Oct 2, 2019 14:53
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This game as about being a cop in the 1970s. Kinda. If the main character wasn't upsettingly racist, sexist and homophobic then the player's immersion would be shattered. I'm feeling hopeful about any suss content being done in the right way because these devs seem to be reasonably thoughtful but also I'm looking forward to seeing strategy guides a year from now being like "ok you gotta go the racist and feminist karaoke hobo character class to maximise your speech check success for this part of the game."
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Oct 2, 2019 14:55
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Pwnstar posted:This game as about being a cop in the 1970s. Kinda. If the main character wasn't upsettingly racist, sexist and homophobic then the player's immersion would be shattered. This isn't true
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Oct 2, 2019 15:11
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yeah like it's a cop in the "1970s" of some different weird setting so not really having the options to be an rear end in a top hat is still really good tho, as this is an RPG, regardless of what those weirdoes at Resetara think of lol
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Oct 2, 2019 15:21
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grate deceiver posted:listen up nerds, I'll say it Don't jinx it. Perhaps a hamster posted:
This is great.
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Oct 2, 2019 15:30
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I hope you can go full into exploring hidden mysteries and just kinda solve the main case incidentally while you are trying to figure out what secrets the buildings are keeping from you.
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Oct 2, 2019 15:43
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As was already mentioned the majority views in the country are pretty right-wing, so that gives this guy a bit of extra credit I'm willing to extend towards sensitive issues. I have no idea of the current state of feminism in Estonia, either, so I'm not gonna be surprised by pretty much anything.
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Oct 2, 2019 15:57
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i read through the links in the OP for the skill and ability explanations on the developer website, and i gotta say i wish they were more direct and to-the-point. there's all this flowery, pseudo-intellectual prose woven into the description of everything, and it made trying to parse what they intend for each skill to do very difficult for me. I wish they had something like a mechanics section for each skill separate from the rambling pontifications on the nature of humanity so that you could at least get an unambiguous explanation for what we should expect the skill to do in-game. i'm also not a fan of "your attributes and skills actually make you worse if they get too high. it's role-play not roll-play you philistine". it sounded like having a very high skill / attribute will force you to start doing certain things, but is it a situation where you're forced to make these poor choices, or is it like having a very high rank in something will give you the option of making poor choices, but not forcing you into it?
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Oct 2, 2019 16:07
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Freaking Crumbum posted:i'm also not a fan of "your attributes and skills actually make you worse if they get too high. it's role-play not roll-play you philistine". it sounded like having a very high skill / attribute will force you to start doing certain things, but is it a situation where you're forced to make these poor choices, or is it like having a very high rank in something will give you the option of making poor choices, but not forcing you into it? Both. Skills open options, but also force you to do things. One example they've given is that high Electrochemistry will give you non-refusable quests to source and make amphetamines.
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Oct 2, 2019 16:19
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Why electrochemistry? is there something about copper and zinc that just screams "I GOTTA DO METH!"
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Oct 2, 2019 16:22
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CommissarMega posted:Why electrochemistry? is there something about copper and zinc that just screams "I GOTTA DO METH!" The idea is that it's the skill govening your dopamine response, as in the electrochemistry of the nervous system. It's in the Physique category, which (seems to) contain skills that are essentially the personifications of the instinctual and more fundamental aspects of your body. quote:ELECTROCHEMISTRY All of the skill descriptions are on their blog. There's the Intellect skills, Psyche skills, Physique skills and Motorics skills. CottonWolf fucked around with this message at 16:30 on Oct 2, 2019 |
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Oct 2, 2019 16:26
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