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Flying_Crab posted:IMO Bernie dropping could almost cement a Warren victory. Warren is going to turn out to be as electable as Hillary Clinton.
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Oct 2, 2019 18:30
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Flying_Crab posted:IMO Bernie dropping could almost cement a Warren victory. warren gets his votes without any infighting, and she can pull him to campaign for her when hes up for it
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Oct 2, 2019 18:31
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I have to remind myself that the internet isn't real life and that the Bernie Stans that are already screaming that they will write in Sanders rather than vote for Warren or any other Dem nominee doesn't mean much but gently caress is it aggravating to watch. I love Sanders, I voted for him last time and I'm glad that he made it to the national stage talking about more left leaning/socialist policies in this country, but the binders some people put on about his chances or weak spots really grinds my gears. Like, seeing people unironically state that AOC or Ilhan Omar would be lock candidates following Sanders kind of tells you how deep in the sand some people's heads are. Yes, they're great politicians, but if you think America is going to suddenly elect either of them to the presidency if they were eligible to run, loving lol @ you. colachute posted:Warren is going to turn out to be as electable as Hillary Clinton. You are definitely going to get a lot of the same flavors of bullshit hurled at Warren that was hurled at Clinton, but Clinton was in the public eye for 25+ years and had the baggage to go with it. I don't think it's a lock either way but I don't think her unfavorables will reach the same levels it did for Clinton during the general.
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Oct 2, 2019 18:33
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colachute posted:Warren is going to turn out to be as electable as Hillary Clinton. When in doubt, redirect the conversation to Hillary Clinton as soon as possible
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Oct 2, 2019 18:35
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Flying_Crab posted:IMO Bernie dropping could almost cement a Warren victory. Good news! The latest Twitter Left meme is that Warren = Biden.
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Oct 2, 2019 18:39
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Handsome Ralph posted:Like, seeing people unironically state that AOC or Ilhan Omar would be lock candidates following Sanders kind of tells you how deep in the sand some people's heads are. Yes, they're great politicians, but if you think America is going to suddenly elect either of them to the presidency if they were eligible to run, loving lol @ you. Depends on what your theory of power is. If it's to keep fighting the same "turn out your base and hope to convince the very small 'centrists' to mostly vote for you" that the Dems have been relying on since '92, no. If it's "advocate fiercely for policies that are broadly popular with the public and do whatever it takes to meaningfully improve people's lives to turn out the 45% of America that can vote but doesn't," then I think you'd be surprised. The idea that what the country is looking for is moderation is not supported by the evidence, and the examples upheld ignore the actual reality. Clinton got 43% of the vote in '92 and only won because Perot was in the race. 49% in '96, against Dole, again with Perot as a spoiler. Obama won on '"hope and change" after the fantastically unpopular bush years, and then proceeded to bleed support when he tacked to the center. If you promise to actually help people, and then once elected actually do so, I think we could see a drastically different political landscape than what the political and media class tell us is possible.
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Oct 2, 2019 18:51
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:Good news! The latest Twitter Left meme is that Warren = Biden. She's not, she's one of the better senators, but that's a low bar to clear in many cases. If you want a detailed breakdown of why she's not that great (with sources) read this: https://medium.com/@moon_bat/elizabeth-warren-isnt-your-friend-9a3915ec2ee4
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Oct 2, 2019 18:54
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NO ONE WILL EVER BE AS GOOD AS PURE SAINT BERNIE. GUYS I DON'T THINK I'M GOING TO VOTE NOW.
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Oct 2, 2019 18:56
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Casimir Radon posted:NO ONE WILL EVER BE AS GOOD AS PURE SAINT BERNIE. GUYS I DON'T THINK I'M GOING TO VOTE NOW. Its disappointing because Bernie is the only national level democrat that believes that social programs shouldn't have ridiculous restrictions put on them. Clearly you have to have 10 pages of forms to fill out, giant warnings about mistakes being perjury, have to go to tribunals and whatever other dumb poo poo congress comes up with to qualify for a social program, you can't just cut checks blindly to people unless they're worth at least $100 million!
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Oct 2, 2019 18:59
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Casimir Radon posted:NO ONE WILL EVER BE AS GOOD AS PURE SAINT BERNIE. GUYS I DON'T THINK I'M GOING TO VOTE NOW. I’ll vote for a wet paper bag against Trump. That doesn’t mean I’m voting for a good candidate. It just means they clear the extremely tough bar of “not Donald Trump.”
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Oct 2, 2019 19:02
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Crakkerjakk posted:She's not, she's one of the better senators, but that's a low bar to clear in many cases. If you want a detailed breakdown of why she's not that great (with sources) read this: Yeah, I read this last night and it definitely made me change my mind on things. I think if we want to unfuck this country we need to nominate the leftmost candidate possible, and that's just not Warren. Not saying I won't vote for her in the general, but she's not my #1 preference right now. It's kind of weird that people are freaking out about other people saying that.
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Oct 2, 2019 19:02
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Fister Roboto posted:Yeah, I read this last night and it definitely made me change my mind on things. I think if we want to unfuck this country we need to nominate the leftmost candidate possible, and that's just not Warren. Not saying I won't vote for her in the general, but she's not my #1 preference right now. It's kind of weird that people are freaking out about other people saying that.  who remaining is to the left of warren?
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Oct 2, 2019 19:06
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Mr. Nice! posted:
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Oct 2, 2019 19:07
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I'll vote for whoever supports the policies that I do and if Bernie drops out that is currently 0.
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Oct 2, 2019 19:07
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Mr. Nice! posted:
Bernie's still not out. If he does drop out then yeah, Warren gets my pick. This really isn't a difficult concept.
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Oct 2, 2019 19:10
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Crakkerjakk posted:Depends on what your theory of power is. If it's to keep fighting the same "turn out your base and hope to convince the very small 'centrists' to mostly vote for you" that the Dems have been relying on since '92, no. You want my most cynical take on politics? People don't loving want policy. Policy and politics are, by and large, are things that are so far above people's heads they don't think about them even when they're directly effected by them (see also: "Keep the government out of my social security") What people want, by and large, is for themselves and their families to feel healthy, safe, and stable. They want next tuesday to look like last tuesday, so long as last tuesday was a good day. And if they can feel that they're doing better than at least one other poor sucker, well then that's just gravy. But if they feel that something they earned is being taken away to help out that poor sap, they'll fight like hell against it no matter how good the cause is, because the single most powerful motivating force in the human psyche is pure, raw, spite. Lyndon Johnson and his Great Society did more for the poor and for Civil Rights than any other president in American history. His Democratic Party then fractured and split apart and allowed Richard loving Nixon to take office, in large part because of Vietnam, but also because no matter what great things Lyndon Johnson did for them, people didn't feel safe or secure—they saw riots, wars, and fear, and then turned to the man who said he would put all those uppity bastards back in their place. So when people say that Sanders will generate tons of new voters with his policies, no, I don't believe it. And it's not because I don't like Sanders or his politics or policies, because I do, and there's a good chance I'll end up voting for him in the primary. But it's because that even if he does manage to get his proposals through Congress (Which will be difficult at best—I personally see Sanders negotiating about as well with Congress as Jimmy Carter did), will people turn out to vote? Will this create a groundswell of new support for leftist policies? Or will they continue to trickle in, not care so long as they're being fed, and disassociate the good things that government does from the people who fought for those policies? Well, without a time machine, it's hard to say, obviously. But I can tell you who won the House and Senate in 1946, and it wasn't the party that had brought in the New Deal and won World War II.
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Oct 2, 2019 19:10
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Fister Roboto posted:Yeah, I read this last night and it definitely made me change my mind on things. What things? What made you change your mind on what subject? Cause I'm not getting much out of that.
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Oct 2, 2019 19:13
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Crakkerjakk posted:Depends on what your theory of power is. If it's to keep fighting the same "turn out your base and hope to convince the very small 'centrists' to mostly vote for you" that the Dems have been relying on since '92, no. I don't disagree with you. I had the same point of contention with Clinton when she ran in 2016 (Universal healthcare was too hard, so why bother? Obamacare is fine as is! etc etc) because that poo poo didn't inspire people to turn out. However, the idea that AOC or Omar would be able to get the nomination and win a national election because they are insanely popular within their districts because of their outspoken progressive/leftist beliefs is ignoring a lot of realities and history in this country. It's also stupid to pretend that Warren or other Dem candidates are incapable of offering the same kind of message. People who are already talking up Warren as Clinton 2.0 are conveniently ignoring the difference in messaging and tone between the two. You don't have to like Warren but pretending she's offering the same centrist message that Clinton did is being willfully ignorant at best and intentionally dishonest at worst. One day? Yeah, I hope that we can elect someone like AOC or Omar or people like them, but for now, it's going to be a loving grind and a struggle no matter who the Dem candidate ends up being. I'd rather make incremental gains in hopes that we can do something better next election than sit on my rear end. Shorter summary, https://twitter.com/tbogg/status/1036415161102360576 Crakkerjakk posted:She's not, she's one of the better senators, but that's a low bar to clear in many cases. If you want a detailed breakdown of why she's not that great (with sources) read this: I've read this, and while it makes some valid points of concern about Warren, it also makes a lot of bad faith arguments and takes a ton of poo poo out of context to run with the "SHE'S ACTUALLY A CORPORTIST SHILL!!!" narrative that really didn't surface till a few months ago. Conveniently right around the same time she started pacing and out performing Sanders in polling. Warren isn't perfect. Neither is Bernie. Anyone telling you otherwise is a loving moron.
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Oct 2, 2019 19:16
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bird cooch posted:What things? What made you change your mind on what subject? Cause I'm not getting much out of that. The biggest wtf is this page: https://elizabethwarren.com/plans/health-care quote:Medicare for All solves these problems. Everyone can see the doctor they need. Nobody goes broke. And your doctor gets paid by Medicare instead of fighting with an insurance company. Fantastic! quote:In addition to the right to physical health care, we must prioritize affordable, high-quality mental health services. Despite the widespread need for these services, many Americans are denied coverage. Elizabeth’s Behavioral Health Coverage Transparency Act would hold insurers accountable for providing adequate mental health benefits and ensure Americans receive the protections they are guaranteed by law. She has also worked to hold the Department of Health and Human Services accountable for improving insurers’ compliance with mental health parity laws through an online consumer portal. Wait what. She has plans but they don't seem to be self consistent!
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Oct 2, 2019 19:17
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So you're super upset that the website isn't that great?
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Oct 2, 2019 19:24
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Crakkerjakk posted:She's not, she's one of the better senators, but that's a low bar to clear in many cases. If you want a detailed breakdown of why she's not that great (with sources) read this: Congrats on being that guy.
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Oct 2, 2019 19:26
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Are we allowed to be critical of a presidential candidate? Asking for a friend.
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Oct 2, 2019 19:27
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Acebuckeye13 posted:You want my most cynical take on politics? I agree with this, but I disagree that "policy" is separate from "themselves and their families feeling healthy, safe, and stable." Like, no one gives a poo poo about means tested tax credits for daycare accounts increasing or decreasing. People give all the shits about "you and everyone you know will be able to get medical care and not have to worry about going bankrupt because of it." The problem is that the scope of what people (particularly the political and media class) believe is possible has narrowed to meaningless tinkering around the edges. You are 100% correct that no one really cares about that. But the Republicans in general and Trump most immediately has shown how much of "what is possible" is defined by traditions and custom as opposed to actual meaningful checks to the power to make changes. And just like with Trump, if politicians sense that their careers depend on riding the wave of populist anger about the status quo, a whole bunch of fence sitters will go along with what they think will let them keep their jobs.
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Oct 2, 2019 19:27
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colachute posted:Are we allowed to be critical of a presidential candidate? Asking for a friend. sure, just don't get all weepy when someone points out it's hard to call a 30-year veteran of congress and the senate a revolutionary
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Oct 2, 2019 19:33
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bird cooch posted:So you're super upset that the website isn't that great? I’m super upset that the plans candidate thinks that mental health and physical health are different things that the former should be trusted to private insurance while the latter has a single payer system.
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Oct 2, 2019 19:34
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Handsome Ralph posted:I don't disagree with you. I had the same point of contention with Clinton when she ran in 2016 (Universal healthcare was too hard, so why bother? Obamacare is fine as is! etc etc) because that poo poo didn't inspire people to turn out. However, the idea that AOC or Omar would be able to get the nomination and win a national election because they are insanely popular within their districts because of their outspoken progressive/leftist beliefs is ignoring a lot of realities and history in this country. It's also stupid to pretend that Warren or other Dem candidates are incapable of offering the same kind of message. People who are already talking up Warren as Clinton 2.0 are conveniently ignoring the difference in messaging and tone between the two. You don't have to like Warren but pretending she's offering the same centrist message that Clinton did is being willfully ignorant at best and intentionally dishonest at worst. I don't think Warren is Clinton 2.0. I think she's (probably) Obama 2.0, with less charisma and a worse personal history. She might surprise me if she gets the presidency, we'll see (or not). And yeah, no one's perfect. But the point of a primary is to pick the best candidate, not the perfect candidate. And for what I think needs to be done to un-gently caress this country (economically and politically) from the absolute trainwreck we've been enduring since about 1970 and try to mitigate the harm from the coming global climate catastrophe, there is one better candidate than Warren, and it's not close which is better in that regard.
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Oct 2, 2019 19:35
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Crakkerjakk posted:I agree with this, but I disagree that "policy" is separate from "themselves and their families feeling healthy, safe, and stable." Except you cut off the next part that gives the Republicans so much success—that it is spite that motivates people to vote. People will turn out in droves to gently caress over the poor and immigrants. They won't to give healthcare to their fellow man. This, of course, doesn't mean we shouldn't fight for good policies. But it does mean that just because we have good policies does not mean that the votes will follow. People like Harry Truman, Adlai Stephenson, George McGovern, Jimmy Carter, and Al Gore can tell you that.
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Oct 2, 2019 19:35
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Crakkerjakk posted:I don't think Warren is Clinton 2.0. I think she's (probably) Obama 2.0, with less charisma and a worse personal history. She might surprise me if she gets the presidency, we'll see (or not). That's fair (Obama 2.0), though like you said, we'll see one way or another. And I agree with you on the point of the primary. My aggravation is less with people stanning for one candidate or another and more with people being willfully disingenuous in their criticisms while also intentionally ignoring their own candidates problem areas, or putting their heads into the sand whenever things don't pan out the way they want them to.
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Oct 2, 2019 19:40
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Acebuckeye13 posted:Except you cut off the next part that gives the Republicans so much success—that it is spite that motivates people to vote. People will turn out in droves to gently caress over the poor and immigrants. They won't to give healthcare to their fellow man. You're right. People understand stories, and stories work best when there are villains. That said, I think most people are perfectly willing to go along with "the bad guy is your boss/landlord/rich assholes, they are loving you, and there are more of us than there are of them.". It's just since at least '92 the Democrats mostly don't want to piss off their donors.
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Oct 2, 2019 19:41
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Mr. Nice! posted:The president is extremely not mad: lol Obama made this joke in 2011 https://twitter.com/LisPower1/status/1179424199477268486
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Oct 2, 2019 19:42
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Slim Pickens posted:lol Obama made this joke in 2011
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Oct 2, 2019 19:48
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i thought he was wearing a white suit for a sec in that clip
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Oct 2, 2019 19:49
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Nostalgia4Butts posted:i thought he was wearing a white suit for a sec in that clip
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Oct 2, 2019 19:51
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Nostalgia4Butts posted:i thought he was wearing a white suit for a sec in that clip Confirmed: Obama as new KFC Colonel Sanders
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Oct 2, 2019 19:51
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Proud Christian Mom posted:I'll vote for whoever supports the policies that I do and if Bernie drops out that is currently 0. has it ever occurred to you it was this attitude that got trump elected?
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Oct 2, 2019 20:20
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https://twitter.com/joshscampbell/status/1179471867234721795?s=19 There was also a presser where a reporter asked Trump what he wanted from Ukraine about the Bidens, and he bullshitted. So the reporter asked him the same question again, multiple times, all with bullshit. Trump then demanded that he ask the Finland president a question, which the reporter did. Trump then immediately jumped in to answer that question, called CNN corrupt, and walked off, ending the thing early. nevermind - a reference was to Mike Pompeo facialimpediment fucked around with this message at 20:24 on Oct 2, 2019 |
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Oct 2, 2019 20:21
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hobbesmaster posted:The biggest wtf is this page: Sounds like she's proposing the public option version of Medicare for All. And strengthening mental health care requirements for the people who keep private health insurance. It took a lot of reading between the lines to get there, though. The mental health system nationwide will still have the problem California's having though. There isn't anywhere near enough capacity to meet demand.
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Oct 2, 2019 20:22
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https://twitter.com/FrancoOrdonez/status/1179467385205641220?s=20 I love that he keeps dragging Pence into this
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Oct 2, 2019 20:28
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i loving love that he keeps dragging pence in
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Oct 2, 2019 20:31
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It wasn't Pence.
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