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Groovelord Neato posted:we already have the same problem that weimar germany had - capital allied with the fascists. IG farben was one of the largest conglomerates on earth at the time and became intertwined with the nazis. it's seriously bonkers they tried to go for some 'lol fall of weimar germany much' slam but wound up straight up parroting nazi talking points with 'mayhaps the masses had too many options...'
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Oct 4, 2019 18:16
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Groovelord Neato posted:obama is very stupid if he thought garland had any chance of getting through. then again he did seem delusional for a lot of his presidency in regards to bipartisanship and assorted bullshit. In other words, it doesn’t matter who Obama would have nominated and this is just your chance to poo poo on the best president in modern history.
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Oct 4, 2019 18:17
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Rent-A-Cop posted:Parliamentary systems have the problem of overrepresenting fringe nutters like UKIP and the DUP. UKIP have never held a parliamentary seat, and certainly never will - the odds of the Brexit Party gaining one, even with their current popularity, is slim. Literally one half of the USA's two-party system is nothing but fringe nutters. Mahoning posted:Yeah the UK parliament sure seems like it is......functioning? It's doing pretty well curtailing the government, yeah. Remember that all the UK's current madness is the result of a referendum. The government promised it, the government ran it. The UK's political system is a basket case for all kinds of reasons, but the parliamentary system isn't it
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Oct 4, 2019 18:17
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yronic heroism posted:In other words, it doesn’t matter who Obama would have nominated and this is just your chance to poo poo on the best president in modern history. while true he is being graded on the mother of all curves.
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Oct 4, 2019 18:18
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yronic heroism posted:In other words, it doesn’t matter who Obama would have nominated and this is just your chance to poo poo on the best president in modern history. he probably is the best president in the last 50 years but that mostly illustrates how poo poo-tastic the rest were
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Oct 4, 2019 18:20
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Trump is a symptom of a system that started breaking long ago. I feel like we’re at the rubicon of the decline of American power abroad. Any illusions of legitimacy of our foreign policy is going to be wiped away by a political party that’s more than happy to hang allies out to dry in order to further their own internal political goals. Further the American electorate itself is as split as it’s ever been, and I personally don’t see a path forward for our current system of government.
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Oct 4, 2019 18:20
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yronic heroism posted:the best president in modern history. this is one of those statements that I can't factually disagree with but also feel like it's calling something the world's fastest slug
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Oct 4, 2019 18:20
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Delthalaz posted:Right, but do you know if there was an "inquiry vote"? I saw some number on Fox yesterday they were using to show bipartisan approval. I believe the reason there wasn’t in Clinton’s case is because of the Starr Report. It would be like if the Mueller Report uncovered this Ukraine stuff and Dems basically skipped the inquiry stage and pointed to the Mueller Report as the justification for impeachment.
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Oct 4, 2019 18:22
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Rigel posted:Romney isn't one of those guys like Sasse or Flake who made sad noises about being concerned and then voted in favor of the thing he was sad about, Romney tends to vote where his mouth is. The reason why he usually votes for evil Republican policies is because he's an evil Republican, he's not going to vote against GOP policies just because Trump is president. ewiley posted:Oh right
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Oct 4, 2019 18:22
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lol, yea, basically. https://twitter.com/jaredpolis/status/1179987708598349825
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Oct 4, 2019 18:23
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could states abolish FPTP and do list voting or something, since they run their own elections? I don't see that actually happening because it would probably cost the dominant party more votes, e.g. California and New York Democrats would likely lose seats to soc dems and Greens
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Oct 4, 2019 18:23
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sexpig by night posted:it's seriously bonkers they tried to go for some 'lol fall of weimar germany much' slam but wound up straight up parroting nazi talking points with 'mayhaps the masses had too many options...' You're right, parliamentary systems cannot possibly fail, they can only be failed. The Nazis gained, and then seized, power precisely because of the failure of the Weimar-era parties on a massive scale on all fronts. And what I was quoting precisely described such a situation if, in theory, American Fascists held a plurality in a theoretical American Parlimentary System. Parlimentary systems do not magically prevent complete nutters from gaining seats or power.
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Oct 4, 2019 18:23
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yronic heroism posted:the best president in modern history. I thought negging was against the rules....
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Oct 4, 2019 18:24
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Folks are missing the point (left and right). America didn't become 'divided' or its power start declining because of things internally. Stuff like the tea party certainly didn't help, but the big thing that we're just now starting to uncover is an enormous, concentrated effort by Russia to undermine and weaken democracy in America. The cold war never ended... the battlefield changed and we didn't realize it. Spreading influence by gaming and taking over social media with bots and influence networks helped Russia amplify and divide folks on both sides. Their explicit goal was to confuse and weaken the country by having folks fight against each other. This isn't a hypothetical or clancychat--the senate just confirmed the entire NRA was compromised by Russia, huge Facebook and Twitter networks to amplify and sow hate in law enforcement, etc. were just shut down last week. Hemming and hawing and debating about how much we changed is worthless. We've been under a direct assault for years and the weapons are likes, retweets, and posts instead of smart bombs and cruise missiles.
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Oct 4, 2019 18:25
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Angry_Ed posted:You're right, parliamentary systems cannot possibly fail, they can only be failed. The Nazis gained, and then seized, power precisely because of the failure of the Weimar-era parties on a massive scale on all fronts. yea dude no system is fascist proof, you're blaming the concept of a parliamentary system for individual parties failing to take the threat of nationalist authoritarianism seriously.
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Oct 4, 2019 18:26
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To be perfectly clear here, the following topics are directly US Politics but have been relegated to their own threads for various reasons: ---The democratic presidential primaries -------Topics for this thread: the candidates themselves when they appear in the news in contexts outside of the horse race & debate and discussion of policies that may or may not be endorsed by various candidates -------Topics for the primary thread: horserace topics (polling, markets, punditry) & campaigning for a particular candidate ---The ethics of protest voting and electorialism ------Topics for this thread: why the democrats are bad & why the democrats are good ------Topics for the protest voting thread: why you should or should not vote for democrats that are bad This isn't always easy to seperate but this is what we're trying to work with.
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Oct 4, 2019 18:26
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skylined! posted:lol, yea, basically. That's a pretty self-aware fascist.
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Oct 4, 2019 18:27
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mod sassinator posted:Folks are missing the point (left and right). America didn't become 'divided' or its power start declining because of things internally. Stuff like the tea party certainly didn't help, but the big thing that we're just now starting to uncover is an enormous, concentrated effort by Russia to undermine and weaken democracy in America. The cold war never ended... the battlefield changed and we didn't realize it. Spreading influence by gaming and taking over social media with bots and influence networks helped Russia amplify and divide folks on both sides. Their explicit goal was to confuse and weaken the country by having folks fight against each other. This isn't a hypothetical or clancychat--the senate just confirmed the entire NRA was compromised by Russia, huge Facebook and Twitter networks to amplify and sow hate in law enforcement, etc. were just shut down last week. Hemming and hawing and debating about how much we changed is worthless. We've been under a direct assault for years and the weapons are likes, retweets, and posts instead of smart bombs and cruise missiles.
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Oct 4, 2019 18:27
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mod sassinator posted:Folks are missing the point (left and right). America didn't become 'divided' or its power start declining because of things internally. Stuff like the tea party certainly didn't help, but the big thing that we're just now starting to uncover is an enormous, concentrated effort by Russia to undermine and weaken democracy in America. The cold war never ended... the battlefield changed and we didn't realize it. Spreading influence by gaming and taking over social media with bots and influence networks helped Russia amplify and divide folks on both sides. Their explicit goal was to confuse and weaken the country by having folks fight against each other. This isn't a hypothetical or clancychat--the senate just confirmed the entire NRA was compromised by Russia, huge Facebook and Twitter networks to amplify and sow hate in law enforcement, etc. were just shut down last week. Hemming and hawing and debating about how much we changed is worthless. We've been under a direct assault for years and the weapons are likes, retweets, and posts instead of smart bombs and cruise missiles. I kind of feel like you're leaving out a lot of U.S. fuckery in Russia's own political and economic systems throughout the 90's and into the present day...
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Oct 4, 2019 18:27
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mod sassinator posted:Folks are missing the point (left and right). America didn't become 'divided' or its power start declining because of things internally. Stuff like the tea party certainly didn't help, but the big thing that we're just now starting to uncover is an enormous, concentrated effort by Russia to undermine and weaken democracy in America. russia - if it actually had an actual effect on the election - was only able to do this due to self-inflicted wounds. there was and is an entire media ecosystem dedicated to hollowing out tens of millions of people.
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Oct 4, 2019 18:27
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OAquinas posted:https://twitter.com/JohnCornyn/status/1180097943141048320
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Oct 4, 2019 18:27
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Rent-A-Cop posted:"Russia made cops racist" is a take. Yes, it is. Here are facts: https://www.newsweek.com/facebook-popular-information-kosovo-police-lives-matter-1462297 You're free to post facts too or stupid quips.
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Oct 4, 2019 18:28
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Pellisworth posted:could states abolish FPTP and do list voting or something, since they run their own elections? They absolutely can with state and local elections, assuming their state constitution allows it. It is not yet settled whether or not a state can do this (list or ranked voting) with a Federal election. The courts have blessed a top-2 runoff a few weeks later (Louisiana does this), but we're not sure if the supreme court will sign off on any system where the guy with a simple plurality is not declared the winner. (because #2 gets put over the top with everyone's 2nd and 3rd choice preferences)
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Oct 4, 2019 18:29
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ewiley posted:That's a pretty self-aware fascist. We saw it earlier with the protestor yelling "party over country, always." Facets such as the health of democracy and a vision for America are comparatively unimportant - they have their team, their team must prevail, whatever it takes, by any means necessary. Anything contrary is a distraction at best.
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Oct 4, 2019 18:29
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mod sassinator posted:Yes, it is. Here are facts: https://www.newsweek.com/facebook-popular-information-kosovo-police-lives-matter-1462297 You're free to post facts too or stupid quips.
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Oct 4, 2019 18:29
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ewiley posted:That's a pretty self-aware fascist. It's not too far a step beyond the CHANGE MY MIND guy.
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Oct 4, 2019 18:30
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mod sassinator posted:Folks are missing the point (left and right). America didn't become 'divided' or its power start declining because of things internally. Stuff like the tea party certainly didn't help, but the big thing that we're just now starting to uncover is an enormous, concentrated effort by Russia to undermine and weaken democracy in America. The cold war never ended... the battlefield changed and we didn't realize it. Spreading influence by gaming and taking over social media with bots and influence networks helped Russia amplify and divide folks on both sides. This isn't a hypothetical or clancychat--the senate just confirmed the entire NRA was compromised by Russia, huge Facebook and Twitter networks to amplify and sow hate in law enforcement, etc. were just shut down last week. Hemming and hawing and debating about how much we changed is worthless. We've been under a direct assault for years and the weapons are likes, retweets, and posts instead of smart bombs and cruise missiles. All Russia has done is pour fuel on the fire that America built. Russia didn't cause these problems, we did. All Russia's teally done here is exploit and inflame our internal tensions for the benefit of their own agenda. Russia didn't cause this situation, they intelligently exploited it. If you really want something to blame then start with the Southern Strategy. If you want a person to blame then Barry Goldwater is the father of modern (completely insane) conservativism. Prester Jane fucked around with this message at 18:35 on Oct 4, 2019 |
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Oct 4, 2019 18:30
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mod sassinator posted:Yes, it is. Here are facts: https://www.newsweek.com/facebook-popular-information-kosovo-police-lives-matter-1462297 You're free to post facts too or stupid quips. this only works in a society where part of the population already agrees with this stuff.
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Oct 4, 2019 18:30
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mod sassinator posted:Folks are missing the point (left and right). America didn't become 'divided' or its power start declining because of things internally. Stuff like the tea party certainly didn't help, but the big thing that we're just now starting to uncover is an enormous, concentrated effort by Russia to undermine and weaken democracy in America. The cold war never ended... the battlefield changed and we didn't realize it. Spreading influence by gaming and taking over social media with bots and influence networks helped Russia amplify and divide folks on both sides. Their explicit goal was to confuse and weaken the country by having folks fight against each other. This isn't a hypothetical or clancychat--the senate just confirmed the entire NRA was compromised by Russia, huge Facebook and Twitter networks to amplify and sow hate in law enforcement, etc. were just shut down last week. Hemming and hawing and debating about how much we changed is worthless. We've been under a direct assault for years and the weapons are likes, retweets, and posts instead of smart bombs and cruise missiles.  Yes, Russia is making everyone be racist and hate immigrants and socialism. It’s not ingrained in who we are or what our country was founded on.
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Oct 4, 2019 18:30
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https://twitter.com/jdawsey1/status/1180168193937002496
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Oct 4, 2019 18:30
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haveblue posted:It's not too far a step beyond the CHANGE MY MIND guy. Wasn't that Crowder?
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Oct 4, 2019 18:31
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mod sassinator posted:Yes, it is. Here are facts: https://www.newsweek.com/facebook-popular-information-kosovo-police-lives-matter-1462297 You're free to post facts too or stupid quips. Turns out facebook has been around since before the internet and cops harassing minorities was due to Russia's influence the entire time.
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Oct 4, 2019 18:31
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Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:your terror of "what if the republicans say something mean to me" is not useful, Skex. i assure you: they are going to be mean to you regardless. can you recall a compromise made with the right that worked. Do you have a problem with reading comprehension or is it that you only have arguments that work against strawmen. I'm not talking about being concerned about Republicans saying mean things I'm talking about getting a message past a hostile media's manipulation. You seem to think that if they'd just done what they're doing now and said, "Yes I'm a socialist and I'm just talking about the democratic socialism of Norwegian countries not command and control state capitalism of the Soviet Union or China" and thus be able to counter the narrative but all the public would ever hear is "yes I'm a socialist" followed by an endless stream of right wing talking points and maybe some mild push back from the token liberal like Colmes who's job was literally to be a foil for Hannity to beat up on. Oh and that ignores the money issue, thanks to Reagan and the sustained attacks undermining Unions the Democrats lost access to a solid source or money and activists. They started taking more business friendly stances in order to counter that disadvantage and unfortunately that meant making compromises but the alternative was literally ceding the field to the opposition and letting the Republicans have their way unimpeded.
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Oct 4, 2019 18:31
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Rigel posted:They absolutely can with state and local elections, assuming their state constitution allows it. ranked choice for both the primaries and the general got passed in Maine a few weeks ago, so we'll see soon
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Oct 4, 2019 18:32
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mod sassinator posted:Yes, it is. Here are facts: https://www.newsweek.com/facebook-popular-information-kosovo-police-lives-matter-1462297 You're free to post facts too or stupid quips. you get this scam only works if they know a large amount of the voting population already agrees with that, right?
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Oct 4, 2019 18:32
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Groovelord Neato posted:russia - if it actually had an actual effect on the election - was only able to do this due to self-inflicted wounds. there was and is an entire media ecosystem dedicated to hollowing out tens of millions of people. It's bizarre that so many people want to bury their head in the sands about this. Russia and Putin have not even been shy about their intentions and we've known for a long time they've been trying to create chaos and undermine democracy: http://www.slate.com/articles/news_...a_lot_like.html
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Oct 4, 2019 18:32
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*edit* too slow
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Oct 4, 2019 18:32
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Prester Jane posted:All Russia has done is pour fuel on the fire that America built. Russia didn't cause these problems, we did. All Russia's done is exploit and inflamed are internal tensions for the benefit of their own agenda. Yeah it's this. Pretending that our own cultural failings are the result of outsider propaganda is actively detrimental to making efforts to fix them, and reinforces toxic American exceptionalism and imperialism.
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Oct 4, 2019 18:32
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fool_of_sound posted:To be perfectly clear here, the following topics are directly US Politics but have been relegated to their own threads for various reasons:
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Oct 4, 2019 18:32
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Yeah, I think I'd have to say the "he was just joking" defense is the best you got if you can't go along with "its perfectly fine to ask other countries to dig up dirt on your opponents" defense.
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Oct 4, 2019 18:32
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