|
Onmi posted:Okay, at what point in CF does Edelgard say she's only invading to get Rhea? Tell me when she says that Rhea is her goal and not the subjugation of the other nations. You know Rhea is de facto running the Kingdom's war effort on CF right? You literally see Dimitri taking orders from her
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2019 01:11
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 7, 2024 23:40 |
|
|
Cuntellectual posted:Having played all four, which one is that The one I mentioned in the rest of my post (crimson flower)
|
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2019 01:11
|
|
|
Onmi posted:That's what I thought. I dont think you get it
|
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2019 01:12
|
|
|
Zore posted:You know Rhea is de facto running the Kingdom on CF right? I do, still explain to me where her decision is that she only wants to invade the Kingdom to get Rhea. She declares war on both the Alliance and Kingdom and the only difference CF brings over the other routes is that due to Byleth's absence she is hesitant to move forward with her war efforts.
|
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2019 01:12
|
|
|
Onmi posted:I do, still explain to me where her decision is that she only wants to invade the Kingdom to get Rhea. She declares war on both the Alliance and Kingdom and the only difference CF brings over the other routes is that due to Byleth's absence she is hesitant to move forward with her war efforts. She also needs to rely less on slitherer backing, hence not using demonic beasts (and the kingdom does because uhhhhh dedue thought it would work out (Narrator: It did not work out))
|
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2019 01:14
|
|
|
Onmi posted:Okay, at what point in CF does Edelgard say she's only invading to get Rhea? Tell me when she says that Rhea is her goal and not the subjugation of the other nations. She might have had the intention of doing that, but we'll never know because IIRC the order of events in CF, as presented by the narrator, goes "Edelgard declares war on Church > pushes Rhea out of Garreg > Rhea flees to Kingdom > Dimitri instantly swears fealty (which means specific things, and none of them good in this situation) in order to get a better chance of killing Edelgard himself > Kingdom declares War on Empire." Edit: Onmi posted:I do, still explain to me where her decision is that she only wants to invade the Kingdom to get Rhea. She declares war on both the Alliance and Kingdom and the only difference CF brings over the other routes is that due to Byleth's absence she is hesitant to move forward with her war efforts. Shinji117 fucked around with this message at 01:17 on Oct 5, 2019 |
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2019 01:15
|
|
|
The most unambiguously wrong thing edelgard does in CF is invading the alliance tbh She however did nothing wrong so the only logical conclusion is that those chapters arent canon
|
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2019 01:16
|
|
|
I mean the Alliance is waiting to jump in once either of the other powers gets beaten up so it makes 100% tactical sense why they do it. Like that's Claude's explicit plan and exactly what he does on his route.
|
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2019 01:17
|
|
|
Her literal stated war dec, even on non CF routes is declaring war on the Church of Seiros and it's followers and presumably the Alliance and Kingdom both support the Church. Like in BL this is her declaring war. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVWDg2pI8GE&t=302s We don't know what would've happened if say the Alliance or whatever stayed neutral or not, well depending on how CF plays out. It is confused if the Empire and Alliance are already at war or not.
|
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2019 01:19
|
|
|
Junpei Hyde posted:The most unambiguously wrong thing edelgard does in CF is invading the alliance tbh a compelling argument
|
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2019 01:19
|
|
|
Zore posted:I mean the Alliance is waiting to jump in once either of the other powers gets beaten up so it makes 100% tactical sense why they do it. Like that's Claude's explicit plan and exactly what he does on his route. yes but my argument is more that doing something because its tactically sound rather than 100% morally good is probably the worst thing you ultimately do from a moral perspective E: Also, as mentioned, you dont actually invade the alliance
|
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2019 01:19
|
|
|
Also the route split should have been on deer and been claude deciding what side to pick, I M O
|
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2019 01:21
|
|
|
Junpei Hyde posted:The most unambiguously wrong thing edelgard does in CF is invading the alliance tbh Claude's (somewhat-ill-deserved) reputation for planning, scheming and backstabbing is probably part of the reason, as Edelgard might not have seen the Alliance as actually being held together by string and hopes but rather part of a scheme to wait until everyone else was exhausted to sweep in and win basically by having done nothing.
|
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2019 01:21
|
|
|
Junpei Hyde posted:Also the route split should have been on deer and been claude deciding what side to pick, I M O As interesting as that would be there'd be like, no game.
|
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2019 01:23
|
|
|
Junpei Hyde posted:yes but my argument is more that doing something because its tactically sound rather than 100% morally good is probably the worst thing you ultimately do from a moral perspective I mean it can play into morality. If you know the only reason someone hasn't stabbed you is because you're watching them, but you do know they plan on stabbing you eventually once you turn around, it is far less morally fraught to attack them first than if there was no indication they would attack you. quote:Certainly the most morally suspect, though it kinda makes sense as given how the Alliance was split 50/50 and could join either side, if it had waited for Edel to focus entirely on the Kingdom and then gotten the jump on the distracted-and-out-of-position Empire that would have been...bad, as opposed to just rushing down the leader of the anti-Empire coalition and then pulling out and letting things go from there. Its not even his reputation, that was his plan.
|
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2019 01:23
|
|
|
Shinji117 posted:Certainly the most morally suspect, though it kinda makes sense as given how the Alliance was split 50/50 and could join either side, if it had waited for Edel to focus entirely on the Kingdom and then gotten the jump on the distracted-and-out-of-position Empire that would have been...bad, as opposed to just rushing down the leader of the anti-Empire coalition and then pulling out and letting things go from there. Again, it's understandable, which is what makes it morally ambiguous as opposed to actually unambiguously evil (also thats only one of the reasons, iirc youre also doing it because its a more tactically sound route to take to fhirdiad)
|
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2019 01:23
|
|
|
Shinji117 posted:Certainly the most morally suspect, though it kinda makes sense as given how the Alliance was split 50/50 and could join either side, if it had waited for Edel to focus entirely on the Kingdom and then gotten the jump on the distracted-and-out-of-position Empire that would have been...bad, as opposed to just rushing down the leader of the anti-Empire coalition and then pulling out and letting things go from there. And it certainly sounds like instead of diplomacy he just....doesn't attack even though the countries are formally at war but agreeing to not fight maybe? It's very confused but Claude could've written up some formal treaty of neutrality. Of course it's entirely plausible this happened during the timeskip, but we don't know about it. 
|
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2019 01:24
|
|
|
also the "invasion" of the alliance in CF amounts to two whole strikes on military bases that are explicitly stated to avoid civilian centers before the leader says "eh whatever it was only really 2 or 3 nobles in my country that weren't on your side anyway" and fucks off back to fantasy canada
|
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2019 01:27
|
|
|
Augus posted:also the "invasion" of the alliance in CF amounts to two whole strikes on military bases that are explicitly stated to avoid civilian centers before the leader says "eh whatever" and fucks off to fantasy canada Isn't Derdriu the capital tho? Like, the game makes it clear you avoid civilian casualties but it's still definitely a place where people like, live. also why the gently caress didnt claude evacuate, it wasnt like it was a surprise invasion.
|
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2019 01:29
|
|
|
Junpei Hyde posted:Isn't Derdriu the capital tho? Like, the game makes it clear you avoid civilian casualties but it's still definitely a place where people like, live. Presumably to limit the battlefield because he knows Edelgard is avoiding civilian casualties. So he just evacuates the dock district, lets her know this, and has his boats full of wyverns plan. Only reason I can think of.
|
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2019 01:30
|
|
|
Junpei Hyde posted:Isn't Derdriu the capital tho? Like, the game makes it clear you avoid civilian casualties but it's still definitely a place where people like, live. The map used for this chapter takes place in the city but the dialogue seems to suggest that the fighting is actually going on outside the city shame about the budget for this route huh
|
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2019 01:31
|
|
|
Junpei Hyde posted:Isn't Derdriu the capital tho? Like, the game makes it clear you avoid civilian casualties but it's still definitely a place where people like, live. Because he's sacrificing most of the Kingdom supporters so that the Alliance's Empire supporters come out unscathed for integration. They note Derdriu is one of the major centers of Kingdom support. Its an absolutely cold blooded and brutal move.
|
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2019 01:31
|
|
|
Eimi posted:Presumably to limit the battlefield because he knows Edelgard is avoiding civilian casualties. So he just evacuates the dock district, lets her know this, and has his boats full of wyverns plan. Only reason I can think of. OK why the gently caress do people not call him out for this that is incredibly stupid
|
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2019 01:34
|
|
|
Derdriu's fighting is limited to the port, the actual giant-rear end city in the background comes out unscathed.
|
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2019 01:36
|
|
|
Is Edelgard's attack on the monastery really the only explicit "I'll let the civilians and people who don't want to fight get out of the line of fire" siege/base assault in the game? My memory might just be fuzzy, but I can't remember any other time. I specifically remember Claude not allowing it (which surprised me a bit), Rhea not allowing it (which didn't, but her next actions did a bit) and at when Edelgard is about to lose she doesn't allow it either, which is another "whelp, Edel when losing starts shaving pieces of her ideals until there's nothing left, see also turning into an inhuman monster to keep power". Shinji117 fucked around with this message at 01:41 on Oct 5, 2019 |
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2019 01:38
|
|
|
The real villain of the game is whoever gave every single thief Pass on maddening And the real hero is whoever gave Impregnable Wall 5 uses
|
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2019 01:49
|
|
|
So changing gears a bit, something I'm sad we probably won't see with the current DLC mode (unless Abyss mode is very surprising is Sothis confronting her wayward daughter. I so want to hear their conversation on any route, but especially on CF. Like it surprised me how Sothis acted, both that she's a cool gremlin, but also how willing she was to 'die' and become one with Byleth, a weird human who isn't particularly moral or anything at that point. It both feels to me as an inherant rejection of Rhea's plan but could speak to something else. In that, Sothis can see all of time, but was still killed. Now we know Thales protected Kronya, but was that because he was watching over her because she's a dumbass or because he can counter our time powers? Given that it's just a cutscene move and they never do anything with Divine Pulse, it seems to me he was just protecting Kronya. Which then begs the question of, how did Sothis die? And I think there's a possibility she let herself be killed because of the Agarthan war and possible guilt over it. But granted I hold onto the idea that the Agarthans weren't pure evil at the start and could just 'challenge' Sothis with their tech, leading to Rhea wanting to wipe them out. I absolutely miss Sothis in part 2 though.
|
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2019 01:50
|
|
|
If Sothis vs agarthans is ever expanded on itll most likely make the events more morally ambiguous
|
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2019 01:53
|
|
|
If Dimitri really cares about the little people he’d let himself get executed. At that point in the narrative the Empire controls like 2/3ds of Faergus including the capital. Pretty decisive victory. Claude does this in Edelgard’s route because he’s a better person. Also “the people of Faergus are counting on me” is bullshit. It’s feudalism, nation states barely exist, peasants don’t care who exacty the lord is, and there’s no standing national army to continue the fight. If your local aristocrat surrenders thats that.
|
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2019 01:54
|
|
|
Dimitri 100% believes that you need a centralised figure of authority to have a society and this clouds his judgement (it also clouds the judgement of basically every character in the game just to lesser extents)
|
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2019 01:56
|
|
|
Nanomashoes posted:If Dimitri really cares about the little people he’d let himself get executed. At that point in the narrative the Empire controls like 2/3ds of Faergus including the capital. Pretty decisive victory. Claude does this in Edelgard’s route because he’s a better person. at that point in the narrative most of the cities are being run by slither puppets who are brutalizing the populace, it's why dimitri turns around and heads back to the kingdom once he gets his head on straight not even be:e is free from this, the slithers immediately start looting artifacts after you take the alliance also the "why don't you just surrender and do whatever the invaders want, this is on u" argument is dumb Yinlock fucked around with this message at 02:05 on Oct 5, 2019 |
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2019 02:00
|
|
|
Edelgard really should have just killed rhea tbh
|
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2019 02:03
|
|
|
surely Hubert must have some fast-acting, odorless, colorless poisons lying around in his dorm
|
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2019 02:04
|
|
|
Augus posted:surely Hubert must have some fast-acting, odorless, colorless poisons lying around in his dorm look he got those mixed up with the colognes one day and he doesn't want to mess with that whole situation
|
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2019 02:06
|
|
|
Weekly reminder: The Spoiler Thread exists.Yinlock posted:also the "why don't you just surrender and do whatever the invaders want, this is on u" argument is dumb Also this.
|
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2019 02:07
|
|
|
we should improve society somewhat
|
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2019 02:09
|
|
|
Junpei Hyde posted:we should improve society somewhat And yet you participate in society!
|
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2019 02:11
|
|
|
Junpei Hyde posted:we should improve society somewhat agreed friend
|
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2019 02:11
|
|
|
Leal posted:And yet you participate in society! curious
|
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2019 02:12
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 7, 2024 23:40 |
|
|
Zore posted:Because he's sacrificing most of the Kingdom supporters so that the Alliance's Empire supporters come out unscathed for integration. They note Derdriu is one of the major centers of Kingdom support. Eh, His primary plan was pushing back the empire with said people. "Welp, we're all dead, so the other guys get their way" was plan B. FoolyCharged fucked around with this message at 02:21 on Oct 5, 2019 |
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2019 02:14
|
|
