(Thread IKs:
fart simpson)
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Thread title is very apt if parsed to mean Taiwan
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Oct 5, 2019 13:16
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all those problems, silenced by vicious trolling
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Oct 5, 2019 13:17
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one day, we will discover the how taiwan stopped being a colony. and those lessons will gives us the tools to take the same kind of democratic reolutionarism to all the not colonies around the world to liberate them rfom. it will take a lot of blood, there will be a lot of conflict before we discover the secret of taiwan not being a colony. luckily we have a to look for date now, 40 years ago something happened and it changed everything
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Oct 5, 2019 13:21
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GoutPatrol posted:Like what time period are you talking about because I'm referring to your phrase "the us wanted to teach Taiwan how to build nuclear missiles" is just wrong. Taiwan shut down the program in the late 80s and it never came back. And to say a DPP politician...wanted nuclear weapons, then you don't know shut about their entire nuclear policy. 2006 Read what I wrote. I didn't say TW wanted a nuclear program. I said US wanted to encoruage TW develop a secret nuclear program on the down low (with plausible deniability) and Taiwan said no. US wanted taiwan to do that to gently caress with China.
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Oct 5, 2019 13:23
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Kurnugia posted:one day, we will discover the how taiwan stopped being a colony. and those lessons will gives us the tools to take the same kind of democratic reolutionarism to all the not colonies around the world to liberate them rfom. it will take a lot of blood, there will be a lot of conflict before we discover the secret of taiwan not being a colony. luckily we have a to look for date now, 40 years ago something happened and it changed everything might have something to do with shedding foreign military presence and then developing a native world class manufacturing and tech industry, which is what socialism already prescribes.
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Oct 5, 2019 13:41
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Modest Mao posted:might have something to do with shedding foreign military presence and then developing a native world class manufacturing and tech industry, which is what socialism already prescribes. thats social democracy. kind of a different thing mate. but do go on, how did taiwan "shed" american military presence? who funded the construction of that world class manufacturing tech, and why? and what happened to the patron-client relations that preceded these magical events? did they just go poof, disappearing along with the colonial state and capitalism as this socialism as described by the modest mao liberated... someone
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Oct 5, 2019 13:47
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Historically all socialist states looked at developing industry and technology as ways to advance their socialist project, as well as not having explicit patron-client relations with a larger state. That doesn't mean Taiwan was ever socialist nor was its version of this process done for socialist reasons, but your horrible rhetorical question did ask for what secret might have helped them to be independent from the united states. Why don't you give a clear statement
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Oct 5, 2019 14:03
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my statements are clear as diarrhea! they flow uphill! also youre the one arguing that this building world class manufacturing and fewer american bases had something to do with taiwan not being a colony anymore, so i do so verily think that you maybe should and could tell me... why? because it isn't immediately self-evident. or perhaps it is completely self-evident and so please please indulge us stupid tankie morons who cant even read wikipedia in explaining why your completely correct opinions are the transformational event 40 years you mysteriously referred to
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Oct 5, 2019 14:09
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huh
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Oct 5, 2019 14:16
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what
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Oct 5, 2019 14:17
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you're breaking up
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Oct 5, 2019 14:17
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hello? hello?
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Oct 5, 2019 14:18
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*click* (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 5, 2019 14:19
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tino posted:2006 Oh my god you're even dumber than I thought This thing really sounds like China wants it's colony back
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Oct 5, 2019 14:19
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sincx has issued a correction as of 05:29 on Mar 23, 2021 |
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Oct 5, 2019 19:20
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I don't get it, you guys aren't bothering to have any kind of nuance at all, it's like there's nothing between colonisation and independence. MM is essentially correct that Taiwan slowly clawed out a noncolonial status by basically playing the USA and PRC against each other long term, encouraging foreign investment while keeping the terms pretty favorable, until it achieved a kind of economic independence so long as it's not blockaded. You might as well call South Korea a colony. Both of those countries have been absorbed within world imperialism as basically middlemen, having to act as a client of an empire that can secure their trade while getting to make modest bank off of jointly exploiting third world labor and exercise wide autonomy over matters that this imperial capital doesn't have a huge stake in. Also, China isn't looking to colonize Taiwan, it's looking to annex it. They're two different things (as long as we aren't talking about annexation in order to form internal colonies in the vein of Puerto Rico, which we aren't). To colonize is to subject a population's labor force and resources under foreign capital's control. To annex is to subject a population's capital under the rules of another state, typically respecting private property rights. At this point of its development basically nobody has a real use for Taiwan as a cheap labor force or resource reserve, it's a potential military outpost, pathway for investing in mainland Chinese labor, and trade hub. Anyway, there's still the big difference that in the fantasy scenario where some western imperialist like the USA got to annex Taiwan first, like hell they would treat it as an equal part of their countries.
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Oct 5, 2019 19:40
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uncop posted:
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Oct 5, 2019 20:51
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Leave us alone.
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Oct 5, 2019 21:11
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never
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Oct 5, 2019 21:11
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China only want Taiwan island's geopolitic and military value. Give up your army and let China be your protectorate and you get to keep your democracy.
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Oct 5, 2019 21:37
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tino posted:China only want Taiwan island's geopolitic and military value. Give up your army and let China be your protectorate and you get to keep your democracy. China does fine without Taiwan's military/strategic value, the reason why Taiwan is important is symbolic, ideological and psychological to a country whose immediate historical memory contains a lot of invasions and dismemberment by colonial powers. And an innate revulsion against disunity of the state as a result.
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Oct 5, 2019 22:08
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Typo posted:China does fine without Taiwan's military/strategic value, the reason why Taiwan is important is symbolic, ideological and psychological to a country whose immediate historical memory contains a lot of invasions and dismemberment by colonial powers. And an innate revulsion against disunity of the state as a result. when did you stop gimmick posting
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Oct 5, 2019 22:35
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Compromise option: China gets Taiwan, but all the Taiwanese move to uninhabited islands in the Pacific. The Communist Party gets to paint Taipei 101 red while the Taiwanese get to relax on the beach and drink margaritas out of coconuts. A win-win for everyone.
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Oct 5, 2019 22:37
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Taiwan is as much a colonial state as Albania is
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Oct 5, 2019 23:42
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Don't you dare to drag the peaceful and harmonious states of the Balkans into this mess
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Oct 6, 2019 00:15
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Dokdo is Serbia
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Oct 6, 2019 00:29
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Youtube randomly recommended me the Deng 1984 parade with Cantonese (TVB?) narration. Seeing all the surviving founding members of CCP olds, and Deng's successor Hu and Zhao who got ousted by him eventually, and the Hong Kong hosts in 80s hairdo speaking in HK style Cantonese, I got mega nostalgic. I don't remember if my grandma had a TV by then, but I definitely saw part of it live. Also, 80s HK was very cool, rip. Edit: this also happened two months before the joined declearation. tino has issued a correction as of 02:00 on Oct 6, 2019 |
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Oct 6, 2019 01:58
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quote:Exceptions: South Korea, Taiwan, Hong Kong and Singapore
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Oct 6, 2019 02:18
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Just wanna say that Imperialism rules and HK should annex China.
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Oct 6, 2019 02:27
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I'm the historical nation
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Oct 6, 2019 02:56
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D.Ork Bimboolean posted:Just wanna say that Imperialism rules and HK should annex China. I mean how else are they gonna beat back the wealth inequality
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Oct 6, 2019 03:15
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Forcing everyone to speak Cantonese seems kind of rude though.
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Oct 6, 2019 09:27
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Oh, also you fools, there's a well enough crafted trap in all of Typo's posts that I've paid attention to, you should seriously question yourself if you find yourself agreeing with them without serious qualifications.
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Oct 6, 2019 10:36
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uncop posted:Oh, also you fools, there's a well enough crafted trap in all of Typo's posts that I've paid attention to, you should seriously question yourself if you find yourself agreeing with them without serious qualifications. have you missed every third sincx post where he reminds everyone that typo is a parody account
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Oct 6, 2019 10:40
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is imperialism a complex of emergent properties inherent to social structures that afford one nation the ability to subjugate another , and do those structures emerge when nations expand to a scale where their relative power so far exceeds any other within its space that it\s both materially easier for less powerful nations to join them than withstand the intrinsic pressure of their expansion and materially easier for the more powerful nation to subjugate than coexist with the less powerful ones ?
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Oct 6, 2019 11:00
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The Great Autismo! posted:have you missed every third sincx post where he reminds everyone that typo is a parody account No, but this challenging environment is developing his parody to the point where it's more convincing than the genuine article. It's not the kind of obvious parody where there's supposed to be clear butt of the joke, it's suble enough satire that you could spread it within tankie social media and have them start adopting those positions and parroting the arguments in earnest. Zodium posted:is imperialism a complex of emergent properties inherent to social structures that afford one nation the ability to subjugate another , and do those structures emerge when nations expand to a scale where their relative power so far exceeds any other within its space that it\s both materially easier for less powerful nations to join them than withstand the intrinsic pressure of their expansion and materially easier for the more powerful nation to subjugate than coexist with the less powerful ones ? Pretty much. You could slightly oversimplify it as self-perpetuating dependence. You start from a position where dependence relations between nations have become pretty one-sided, there's no equal exchange of favors between them but instead one expects the other to give tribute to it in some form, in exchange for not messing with it in some serious fashion. The favors demanded, in turn, are calculated to perpetuate the existing dependence relation and produce new ones. The pre-capitalist form was principally a military dependence similar to the dependence relation within tributary societies between their state and population: the obviously superior military force demands the other to pay them what they want in exchange for not loving their poo poo up and defending them from rivals instead. It worked in the Americas because the native peoples either weren't very organized or their societies happened to be in disarray, so a small force was enough to get a snowball effect going. To do the same for most other places, technology had to develop to the point where some countries could build these naval forces that could function autonomously far away and for long periods of time, blockade countries and bombard their trade hubs. This imperialism was pre-capitalist because the tribute it extracted was for consumption rather than production. Of course it enabled capitalism to quickly develop within and around the empires because they were spending like crazy and hungry for goods from anyone who could supply them. Capitalist economic relations altered the field by creating the world economy. Countries were no longer mostly autarkic, trading mainly for convenience and luxury, each was dependent on imports for basic necessities or their production. The autarky used to be why e.g. China could tell the British to piss off, confident that since the British couldn't invade, there was nothing they could do that would have been worse than submission. But yeah, so the world economy emerged from the context of pre-capitalist imperialism, where countries had been divided into "workshops of the world" turbocharged by free stuff shipped in, courtesy of genocidal below-subsistence slave labor, on one side, and those that still mostly subsisted off of tribute from peasants on the other. At this point trade and investment became the primary lever of dependence. Imperialism started to become more about entering countries to invest in the cheap labor power of their poor populations and sell exotic manufactured products to their wealthier people, independent producers extracting wealth from supply and demand imbalances. Eventually it started dawning to empires that keeping a military presence on dependent countries wasn't paying for itself anymore since economic dependence was doing the heavy lifting. A close enough effect could be had by denying them the ability to produce things things they needed for for consumption or export, forcing them to subsist off of selling cheap and buying dear. Being able to threaten naval blockade and bombing of productive infrastructure was typically weapon enough if force of arms was needed. People used to think they could escape imperialism by expelling the militaries and officials of the colonists, but that wasn't the case anymore. There were only two ways out, striving for an industrial autarky under a blockade and denial of foreign investment (the Soviet & early PRC way) or finding some weak point in the structure of the global system that could enable them to force foreign investors to serve the independent rather than the dependent development of their economy (South Korea, Taiwan, modern China). uncop has issued a correction as of 12:27 on Oct 6, 2019 |
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Oct 6, 2019 12:21
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sincx has issued a correction as of 05:29 on Mar 23, 2021 |
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Oct 6, 2019 14:37
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the catapults are ready  https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/politics/article/3031732/hong-kong-protesters-outraged-anti-mask-law-return-streets
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Oct 6, 2019 15:30
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Darkest Auer posted:I'm the historical nation
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Oct 6, 2019 16:33
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| # ? May 27, 2024 22:00 |
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sincx has issued a correction as of 05:29 on Mar 23, 2021 |
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Oct 6, 2019 16:39
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