Warframe: Party Like It's 1999

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SpruceZeus: Aug 13, 2011

thats some kind of conclave poo poo that doesnt matter i think

# ? Oct 7, 2019 04:06

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# ? May 27, 2024 18:14

Tulip: Jun 3, 2008; yeah thats pretty good

How To Optimize For Getting Punched In The Face

Abstract
Effective Hit Points (EHP) is a commonly used aggregate in Warframe to discuss survivability. The following treatment explores how to best optimize for EHP, which varies on a frame-by-frame basis according to the relative base defense stats. Variation by resource availability is also considered.

Introduction

So a common piece of advice is �redirection is terrible, use steel fiber instead.� I wanted to test this received wisdom and create an objective tool for Warframe players. This should not be accepted as the end-all-be-all on survival, let alone builds, but simply to save players significant optimization labor.

While previous work has used our knowledge of the damage system to create calculators for EHP, this dataset has maxima already calculated and will report back to interested parties both the best in slot and its relative value over the next best.

Results

:pcgaming:

Click here and make a copy to get looking at the EHP comparisons

:pcgaming:

Select your frame from the drop down, and the rest will populate. I�ve put the recommendations into �tiers� based on which mods are allowed.

Umbralviolence. No holds barred, Best In Slot(s) set of 2 tanking mods
Hurt Me Platinum. Excludes Full Umbral, due to the fact that even highly veteran players can only afford a few frames at Full Umbral due to capacity restrictions and lack of Umbral Forma
Hey Not Too Endo. The most useful to most players, as it excludes Umbral and Primed mods This is still relatively late game, but far, far less expensive.

These were the three most obvious breakpoints in player ability to kit out a frame. Note that even Hey Not Too Endo is still pretty advanced in a Warframe player�s career! Maxing out all the mods considered in Hey Not Too Endo is 33,480 Endo, which is expensive but it�s another 200,880 for everything in Hurt Me Platinum.

In case it�s unclear, if the number of Umbral mods doesn�t match up to the number of mods named e.g. �Umbral Vitality 2+Redirection,� this means assuming that Umbral Intensify is also equipped.

If you wish to peak behind the curtain at the full data to compare frame vs frame, go ahead, I�m not your mom.

Methods
What I did was I went through and compared EHP values for each frame with different combinations of mods. I gave myself a few constraints, largely in the interest of being able to compare apples to apples.

First, this is about EHP, and thus "tanking" mods. Abilities are not considered because that's a much more complicated discussion, and neither are defense mods that involve conditional mitigation. No Adaptation and no Warm Coat. I am only considering

Vitality (and Umbral)
Redirection
Vigor (and Primed)
Steel Fiber (and Umbral)
Quick Thinking
Flow (and Primed)

Second, only 2 tanking mods at a time. Outside of like, Orb fights, this will be nearly always sufficient, if you're going down all the time with 2k+ EHP I recommend rolling more. Some frames with strong active defense can use less even at high levels.

The one caveat here is that Umbral Intensify isn't a tanking mod, so "Full Umbral" is a viable set. It violates the letter of the law but fulfills its spirit much more closely, since "is Full Umbral worth it" is one of the questions I wanted to answer.

So I've got the #1 and #2 best set ups per tier, and the marginal improvement of both best over second best AND over the best in the lower tiers (to help in decisions on where to put endo and Umbral Forma).

This shouldn't be taken as a build gospel, given that some frames have such powerful defense abilities that even 2 slots on tank mods is wasteful.

Discussion

Umbralviolence is a pretty tight space: 44 want Full Umbral, and another 19 go for Quick Thinking+Primed Flow.

Once you exclude Full Umbral, Quick Thinking+Primed Flow reigns with 35, and the frankly impractical Umbral Vitality+Umbral Fiber pulls in 17. If Umbral Vitality+Umbral Fiber is, very understandably, not a good option, Quick Thinking+Umbral Fiber 2 is a good second choice.

In the Hey Not Too Endo I'd expected to come down to a Redirection vs Steel Fiber showdown and, when I looked at those two specifically I'd expected a clear Redirection victory but nope Quick Thinking stole the crown with 32.

Conclusion

EHP has theoretical limitations. The most obvious is that enemies damage, in general, is increased or decreased based on type. The second is that there are a wide variety of mitigation strategies that have little to do with EHP: evasion, decoys, timed damage reductions like rolling, situational damage reduction, crowd control, etc etc. And perhaps most importantly, recovering shields, life, and energy are all quite different (and you might want that energy for something else!), so readers will have to exercise their own, subjective judgment when making total builds.

# ? Oct 7, 2019 04:10

njsykora: Jan 23, 2012; Robots confuse squirrels.

Yeah the symbol is just the Conclave emblem, meaning it's a Conclave mod. The non-Conclave version of Combustion Beam is great though, I don't know if it's actually good but it's definitely hilarious which is more important.

# ? Oct 7, 2019 04:10

Spudd: Nov 27, 2007; Protect children from "Safe Schools" social engineering. Shame!

Screaming Idiot posted:

Sentients are the worst enemy type in the game. Yes, it's supposed to be thematic of them being a big threat, but it's a pain in the rear end dealing with them and their hokey pokey dance of resistances, and even more annoying because you have to rely on spoiler mode to beat them.

I hate playing as the operator and the grind to get a halfway-decent amp is a horrible chore. Why can't I just remain as a badass robot ninja, DE? Why are operators so aggressively unfun?

Use Baruuk and more specifically his 4

# ? Oct 7, 2019 05:09

Horace Kinch: Aug 15, 2007

prefect posted:

Apologies in advance if this is a dumb question.

The symbol and the "20" next to it in the bottom-left corner -- what does it mean?

Conclave score. Back when DE believed anyone would actually give a poo poo about conclave certain mods had a point value assigned to them. Then it got retired and DE never bothered taking it off the mods.

# ? Oct 7, 2019 05:17

Berke Negri: Feb 15, 2012; Les Ricains tuent et moi je mue
Mao Mao
Les fous sont rois et moi je bois
Mao Mao
Les bombes tonnent et moi je sonne
Mao Mao
Les bebes fuient et moi je fuis
Mao Mao

didnt it also used to be used as some gearscore dick measuring metric that mercifully got abandoned fast

# ? Oct 7, 2019 05:42

Helter Skelter: Feb 10, 2004; BEARD OF HAVOC

Berke Negri posted:

didnt it also used to be used as some gearscore dick measuring metric that mercifully got abandoned fast

Yes, and it was extra dumb because the score had no bearing on whether a particular loadout was actually any good because the values on the mods were all totally arbitrary.

# ? Oct 7, 2019 06:05

Chocobo: Oct 15, 2012; Here comes a new challenger!; Oven Wrangler

Tulip posted:

How To Optimize For Getting Punched In The Face

Abstract
Effective Hit Points (EHP) is a commonly used aggregate in Warframe to discuss survivability. The following treatment explores how to best optimize for EHP, which varies on a frame-by-frame basis according to the relative base defense stats. Variation by resource availability is also considered.

Introduction

So a common piece of advice is �redirection is terrible, use steel fiber instead.� I wanted to test this received wisdom and create an objective tool for Warframe players. This should not be accepted as the end-all-be-all on survival, let alone builds, but simply to save players significant optimization labor.

While previous work has used our knowledge of the damage system to create calculators for EHP, this dataset has maxima already calculated and will report back to interested parties both the best in slot and its relative value over the next best.

Results

Click here and make a copy to get looking at the EHP comparisons

Select your frame from the drop down, and the rest will populate. I�ve put the recommendations into �tiers� based on which mods are allowed.

Umbralviolence. No holds barred, Best In Slot(s) set of 2 tanking mods

Hurt Me Platinum. Excludes Full Umbral, due to the fact that even highly veteran players can only afford a few frames at Full Umbral due to capacity restrictions and lack of Umbral Forma

Hey Not Too Endo. The most useful to most players, as it excludes Umbral and Primed mods This is still relatively late game, but far, far less expensive.

These were the three most obvious breakpoints in player ability to kit out a frame. Note that even Hey Not Too Endo is still pretty advanced in a Warframe player�s career! Maxing out all the mods considered in Hey Not Too Endo is 33,480 Endo, which is expensive but it�s another 200,880 for everything in Hurt Me Platinum.

In case it�s unclear, if the number of Umbral mods doesn�t match up to the number of mods named e.g. �Umbral Vitality 2+Redirection,� this means assuming that Umbral Intensify is also equipped.

If you wish to peak behind the curtain at the full data to compare frame vs frame, go ahead, I�m not your mom.

Methods
What I did was I went through and compared EHP values for each frame with different combinations of mods. I gave myself a few constraints, largely in the interest of being able to compare apples to apples.

First, this is about EHP, and thus "tanking" mods. Abilities are not considered because that's a much more complicated discussion, and neither are defense mods that involve conditional mitigation. No Adaptation and no Warm Coat. I am only considering

Vitality (and Umbral)

Redirection

Vigor (and Primed)

Steel Fiber (and Umbral)

Quick Thinking

Flow (and Primed)

Second, only 2 tanking mods at a time. Outside of like, Orb fights, this will be nearly always sufficient, if you're going down all the time with 2k+ EHP I recommend rolling more. Some frames with strong active defense can use less even at high levels.

The one caveat here is that Umbral Intensify isn't a tanking mod, so "Full Umbral" is a viable set. It violates the letter of the law but fulfills its spirit much more closely, since "is Full Umbral worth it" is one of the questions I wanted to answer.

So I've got the #1 and #2 best set ups per tier, and the marginal improvement of both best over second best AND over the best in the lower tiers (to help in decisions on where to put endo and Umbral Forma).

This shouldn't be taken as a build gospel, given that some frames have such powerful defense abilities that even 2 slots on tank mods is wasteful.

Discussion

Umbralviolence is a pretty tight space: 44 want Full Umbral, and another 19 go for Quick Thinking+Primed Flow.

Once you exclude Full Umbral, Quick Thinking+Primed Flow reigns with 35, and the frankly impractical Umbral Vitality+Umbral Fiber pulls in 17. If Umbral Vitality+Umbral Fiber is, very understandably, not a good option, Quick Thinking+Umbral Fiber 2 is a good second choice.

In the Hey Not Too Endo I'd expected to come down to a Redirection vs Steel Fiber showdown and, when I looked at those two specifically I'd expected a clear Redirection victory but nope Quick Thinking stole the crown with 32.

Conclusion

EHP has theoretical limitations. The most obvious is that enemies damage, in general, is increased or decreased based on type. The second is that there are a wide variety of mitigation strategies that have little to do with EHP: evasion, decoys, timed damage reductions like rolling, situational damage reduction, crowd control, etc etc. And perhaps most importantly, recovering shields, life, and energy are all quite different (and you might want that energy for something else!), so readers will have to exercise their own, subjective judgment when making total builds.

So, gently caress, I really need to figure out what is gating me out of the quest for Umbral Excalibur.

# ? Oct 7, 2019 06:08

Psion: Dec 13, 2002; eVeN I KnOw wHaT CoRnEr gAs iS

Chocobo posted:

So, gently caress, I really need to figure out what is gating me out of the quest for Umbral Excalibur.

have you done chains of harrow, because that's a blocker as well. If you have the quarters + chains done, there's a cutscene in your quarters and then you should be good to go from there.

# ? Oct 7, 2019 06:13

StashAugustine: Mar 24, 2013; Do not trust in hope- it will betray you! Only faith and hatred sustain.

Keep in mind umbral mods are like 2M cress and 40K endo to max and they're 16 drain with formas that are insanely hard to come by

# ? Oct 7, 2019 06:18

Avulsion: Feb 12, 2006; I never knew what hit me

StashAugustine posted:

Keep in mind umbral mods are like 2M cress and 40K endo to max and they're 16 drain with formas that are insanely hard to come by

Max out Umbral Intensify, but keep the other 2 at 14 cost. That'll make it a lot easier to fit 99% of the time while also being better than normal Steel Fiber or Vitality as long as you have 2 Umbral mods equipped.

# ? Oct 7, 2019 06:37

Goa Tse-tung: Feb 11, 2008; ;3; Yams Fan

or just don't max them, I left them at 8/8/6 and full sets on most frames are smooth with 3 to 5 formas

# ? Oct 7, 2019 06:37

Chocobo: Oct 15, 2012; Here comes a new challenger!; Oven Wrangler

Psion posted:

have you done chains of harrow, because that's a blocker as well. If you have the quarters + chains done, there's a cutscene in your quarters and then you should be good to go from there.

Yeah, it was Chains of Harrow. Doing that now. Not sure how I missed that wiki page.

StashAugustine posted:

Keep in mind umbral mods are like 2M cress and 40K endo to max and they're 16 drain with formas that are insanely hard to come by

I want to be the very best, like no one ever was. The Index with a credit booster is the most bizarre power/feature creep I've seen in this game so far. Half a million credits for a few minutes work.

Chocobo fucked around with this message at 06:42 on Oct 7, 2019

# ? Oct 7, 2019 06:40

endlessmonotony: Nov 4, 2009; by Fritz the Horse

Tulip posted:

Conclusion

EHP has theoretical limitations. The most obvious is that enemies damage, in general, is increased or decreased based on type. The second is that there are a wide variety of mitigation strategies that have little to do with EHP: evasion, decoys, timed damage reductions like rolling, situational damage reduction, crowd control, etc etc. And perhaps most importantly, recovering shields, life, and energy are all quite different (and you might want that energy for something else!), so readers will have to exercise their own, subjective judgment when making total builds.

The downside of Quick Thinking wherever it matters means it doesn't properly function as EHP.

Being chain-stunned means it doesn't matter what your EHP is. DE please, add a cooldown. :negative:

# ? Oct 7, 2019 06:42

Ra Ra Rasputin: Apr 2, 2011

Avulsion posted:

Max out Umbral Intensify, but keep the other 2 at 14 cost. That'll make it a lot easier to fit 99% of the time while also being better than normal Steel Fiber or Vitality as long as you have 2 Umbral mods equipped.

This is the way to do it, you want to max intensify because it's 15% better then regular intensify stand-alone and is easy to fit by itself and is even better if you can fit umbral vitality or more.

# ? Oct 7, 2019 07:05

Chocobo: Oct 15, 2012; Here comes a new challenger!; Oven Wrangler

So looking for a new fun gun, I've tried the Braton Vandal, Gorgon, Soma, and Zhuge all with decent rivens and none quite hit the mark. Now I'm trying the Tiberon, and it seems quite dandy. Surprisingly good rivens at low prices, too!

# ? Oct 7, 2019 08:15

Tuxedo Catfish: Mar 17, 2007; You've got guts! Come to my village, I'll buy you lunch.

The Tiberon's disposition just got nerfed (for the second time, IIRC, after a larger adjustment during the last disposition adjustment) after months if not years of it having a wildly high disposition for such a good gun.

# ? Oct 7, 2019 08:17

njsykora: Jan 23, 2012; Robots confuse squirrels.

Chocobo posted:

So looking for a new fun gun, I've tried the Braton Vandal, Gorgon, Soma, and Zhuge all with decent rivens and none quite hit the mark. Now I'm trying the Tiberon, and it seems quite dandy. Surprisingly good rivens at low prices, too!

Try the Exergis, its a single shot shotgun with a tight spread and innate punch through. Its the god of "gently caress this guy in particular" and gets some good fire rate with a bunch of reload speed.

# ? Oct 7, 2019 09:05

Berke Negri: Feb 15, 2012; Les Ricains tuent et moi je mue
Mao Mao
Les fous sont rois et moi je bois
Mao Mao
Les bombes tonnent et moi je sonne
Mao Mao
Les bebes fuient et moi je fuis
Mao Mao

tiberon p is good without a riven, or even a riven with its [increasingly dropping] dispo

exergis can be a beast its a status shotty that only needs 3 60/60s so you can cram more +reload mods on it

also with nyx deluxe pack you can make it look less aggressively corpus if you want

# ? Oct 7, 2019 11:15

Chocobo: Oct 15, 2012; Here comes a new challenger!; Oven Wrangler

I was looking at Battacor as a contender to snag a riven on before the dispo drops, if I can luck into the right riven or the right seller.

Did my quests, snagged my Umbra. Most of my playtime was in the year or two of release, its hard to believe that I'm playing the same game.

Chocobo fucked around with this message at 11:45 on Oct 7, 2019

# ? Oct 7, 2019 11:42

Berke Negri: Feb 15, 2012; Les Ricains tuent et moi je mue
Mao Mao
Les fous sont rois et moi je bois
Mao Mao
Les bombes tonnent et moi je sonne
Mao Mao
Les bebes fuient et moi je fuis
Mao Mao

battacor is alright, i dont like how it plays and it requires like 6 forma to work but you can make it nice

i dont think battacor got any riven nerfs, kind of doubt itll get any substantial in the future tbh

# ? Oct 7, 2019 11:47

Ichabod Tane: Oct 30, 2005; A most notable
coward, an infinite and endless liar, an hourly promise breaker, the owner of no one good quality.

https://youtu.be/_Ojd0BdtMBY?t=4

Opticor seems hilariously effective. Probably needs a pile of +fire rate to lower the charge up

# ? Oct 7, 2019 13:35

Tulip: Jun 3, 2008; yeah thats pretty good

StashAugustine posted:

Keep in mind umbral mods are like 2M cress and 40K endo to max and they're 16 drain with formas that are insanely hard to come by

yeah that's why I did a tier that uses no primed/Umbral mods. It's like 200k endo for both the two prime and three Umbral mods to go to max, and that sucks

(Primed Vigor is also not really that good)

# ? Oct 7, 2019 13:44

hazardousmouse: Dec 17, 2010

Regular opticor needs some fire rate, yeah. Vandal is just dandy on its own.

# ? Oct 7, 2019 13:50

Shrimp or Shrimps: Feb 14, 2012

How is the Stradavar Prime?

I've been farming Saryn Prime (opened no kidding 17 Neo S13 rad relics over the last few days and still haven't gotten chassis yet (the rare drop)), but along the way managed to somehow pick up all the parts for Stradavar Prime just from pubbie relics.

It's MR12 though and I'm still a lowly 10.

Shrimp or Shrimps fucked around with this message at 15:08 on Oct 7, 2019

# ? Oct 7, 2019 14:16

Synthbuttrange: May 6, 2007

Shrimp or Shrimps posted:

How is the Stradavar Prime?

Its a gun that shoots bullets and is not bad.

# ? Oct 7, 2019 14:19

Bug Squash: Mar 18, 2009

I just unveiled an atterax riven. I don't have much experience with these rivens, but it looks to me that the disposition is so low nothing short of a godtier roll would replace any mod in a memestrike build. Despite this the sell price is pretty good.

This is a pretty safe bet to sell unrolled, right?

# ? Oct 7, 2019 14:22

Tulip: Jun 3, 2008; yeah thats pretty good

Yup

# ? Oct 7, 2019 14:33

Bug Squash: Mar 18, 2009

Thanks!

Only just started dipping into the riven game and didn't want to be the idiot that sold a rubico riven for 20 plat or something.

# ? Oct 7, 2019 15:10

Nalesh: Jun 9, 2010; What did the grandma say to the frog?

Something racist, probably.

Screaming Idiot posted:

Sentients are the worst enemy type in the game. Yes, it's supposed to be thematic of them being a big threat, but it's a pain in the rear end dealing with them and their hokey pokey dance of resistances, and even more annoying because you have to rely on spoiler mode to beat them.

I hate playing as the operator and the grind to get a halfway-decent amp is a horrible chore. Why can't I just remain as a badass robot ninja, DE? Why are operators so aggressively unfun?

You do realize that even with the basic amp, you fully reset sentients damage resists upon hitting them with it right? So just shoot them with your guns until they get resisty, then pop into gremlin mode, hit them once and then go back to using your actually good guns.

Nalesh fucked around with this message at 15:51 on Oct 7, 2019

# ? Oct 7, 2019 15:31

Ichabod Tane: Oct 30, 2005; A most notable
coward, an infinite and endless liar, an hourly promise breaker, the owner of no one good quality.

https://youtu.be/_Ojd0BdtMBY?t=4

Raptor1033 posted:

Regular opticor needs some fire rate, yeah. Vandal is just dandy on its own.

Is the vandal worth the horrific grind to get it? Reg opticor seems just fine since it has the increased damage?

I think if I get the fire rate mod dropped from nightmares for rifles -- it would be a great place. Unfortunately I did not get it the last run through nightmare.

Maybe it'll be my night tonight.

# ? Oct 7, 2019 15:52

Tulip: Jun 3, 2008; yeah thats pretty good

Opti-v is MUCH faster than base. It is nearly semi auto. If you want to use it as an actual weapon in combat, it's a huge improvement. There's weird gimmicks that justify the base I guess, but the vandal is massively more fun 99% of the time.

Now, does that justify 100 thermia? Ehhhhh.

# ? Oct 7, 2019 15:58

Ichabod Tane: Oct 30, 2005; A most notable
coward, an infinite and endless liar, an hourly promise breaker, the owner of no one good quality.

https://youtu.be/_Ojd0BdtMBY?t=4

Tulip posted:

Opti-v is MUCH faster than base. It is nearly semi auto. If you want to use it as an actual weapon in combat, it's a huge improvement. There's weird gimmicks that justify the base I guess, but the vandal is massively more fun 99% of the time.

Now, does that justify 100 thermia? Ehhhhh.

gently caress. I'm going to try and just make the opticor standard work because thermia poo poo is the kind of boring that makes me bounce off a game

# ? Oct 7, 2019 16:01

prefect: Sep 11, 2001; No one, Woodhouse.
No one.; Dead Man’s Band

Glenn Quebec posted:

gently caress. I'm going to try and just make the opticor standard work because thermia poo poo is the kind of boring that makes me bounce off a game

It's an excellent gun when you have to fight a boss-type and want to shoot them once in the face.

# ? Oct 7, 2019 16:02

Ichabod Tane: Oct 30, 2005; A most notable
coward, an infinite and endless liar, an hourly promise breaker, the owner of no one good quality.

https://youtu.be/_Ojd0BdtMBY?t=4

prefect posted:

It's an excellent gun when you have to fight a boss-type and want to shoot them once in the face.

I just have to make sure to have a solid af sidearm and melee really.

Would there be a mod out there that would expand it's AoE damage or nah?

Edit:Maybe ramping up multishot and status effect chance would be it

# ? Oct 7, 2019 16:05

Truga: May 4, 2014; Lipstick Apathy

Opticor vandal is great for roughly 99.99% of the game. It's basically a faster firing opticor with a nice aoe boop thing.

When you need to hit something for 7 digits of damage per shot for any reason tho, opticor non-vandal is there to back you up.

# ? Oct 7, 2019 16:05

prefect: Sep 11, 2001; No one, Woodhouse.
No one.; Dead Man’s Band

Glenn Quebec posted:

I just have to make sure to have a solid af sidearm and melee really.

Would there be a mod out there that would expand it's AoE damage or nah?

Edit:Maybe ramping up multishot and status effect chance would be it

https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Firestorm

# ? Oct 7, 2019 16:05

Bug Squash: Mar 18, 2009

It seems to have replaced the Arca Plasmor as the weapon that everyone uses in Index. I just Regulator everything there to death, so whatever.

# ? Oct 7, 2019 16:06

Tulip: Jun 3, 2008; yeah thats pretty good

Glenn Quebec posted:

gently caress. I'm going to try and just make the opticor standard work because thermia poo poo is the kind of boring that makes me bounce off a game

yeah there's not really any one weapon or frame that's so good to justify making yourself miserable

# ? Oct 7, 2019 16:08

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# ? May 27, 2024 18:14

Ichabod Tane: Oct 30, 2005; A most notable
coward, an infinite and endless liar, an hourly promise breaker, the owner of no one good quality.

https://youtu.be/_Ojd0BdtMBY?t=4

prefect posted:

https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Firestorm

Fuuuuck. That + the rof from nightmare is what's up. *Life Goals*

Looks like I'll be doing non-stop Sabotage [Hive] matches. Does anyone have a recommended area to grind?

Tulip posted:

yeah there's not really any one weapon or frame that's so good to justify making yourself miserable

This really has become the rule of thumb for me. The only way it would be doable is if someone was doing it with me and I could follow them in auto pilot.

Ichabod Tane fucked around with this message at 16:14 on Oct 7, 2019

# ? Oct 7, 2019 16:11

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