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Casimir Radon posted:It needed another fully fleshed out hub. Prague looked great but it gets samey when it's the backdrop to 80% of the game. DX has always been about globe trotting. I would have liked more globe trotting too but Prague was probably the best hub of the entire series.
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Oct 5, 2019 21:50
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| # ? May 31, 2024 07:07 |
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Weird, I would have liked less globetrotting. I wish literally all of the game would have taken place in the hub, just make the hub a little bigger and have parts of it unlock over time
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Oct 5, 2019 22:08
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Prague is excellent, which is a big part of why I'd like another hub. A second act that could follow Prague would be fantastic.
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Oct 5, 2019 22:45
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Hub talk has me thinking that DX MD probably could have benefited from a Hitman model, with large detailed areas released over time instead of all at once. Plus the twists and turns would make for some fun cliffhangers meted out over a year or so.
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Oct 5, 2019 22:47
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I haven't played Hitman since Blood Money, but the plot was almost unimportant to that game, though. If the new Hitmans are similar... it seems like it would be hard to tell a coherent, interesting story that way, and that's fairly important to a DX game.
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Oct 5, 2019 23:27
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aniviron posted:I haven't played Hitman since Blood Money, but the plot was almost unimportant to that game, though. If the new Hitmans are similar... it seems like it would be hard to tell a coherent, interesting story that way, and that's fairly important to a DX game. The new ones have a decent plot, but the point is more about release format. Release it for 60 bucks or a per episode fee. First episode is a prologue mission and a detailed hub with a plot mission and side stuff. A few months later, side quests in that hub and a main quest type thing elsewhere. A few months after that, new hub with side quests and a main mission. Continue for like a year. Don’t make it a yearly release or anything, just use it so you can really flesh out later content.
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Oct 5, 2019 23:44
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I get the release schedule, I just think it's a tough ask to make an immersive game with a coherent story while expecting your players to only play for a few hours every few months. Not sure it would work for DX.
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Oct 5, 2019 23:48
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aniviron posted:I get the release schedule, I just think it's a tough ask to make an immersive game with a coherent story while expecting your players to only play for a few hours every few months. Not sure it would work for DX. I get that, but I’m not saying do 3-5 hour chunks per month. Make most of the game before release, do 3-4 15 hour chunks a year and listen to player feedback to tweak it and you got yourself a greatest of all time game going. It can’t be worse than Invisible War.
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Oct 5, 2019 23:52
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Cat Mattress posted:It's all in the numbers.
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Oct 5, 2019 23:54
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Prague is probably the most vertical hub in the series too. There's a lot of little secrets on rooftops or in apartments you can only get to by opening windows from the outside that are high up and you need to climb things from a few blocks away to reach. It kinda makes me wish for a new Thief game like that. Then I remember Thi4f and wonder what the hell went wrong there when the level design for Mankind Divided went so right.
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Oct 6, 2019 12:45
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I thought Prague was one of the least interesting hubs in the series if only because they reused assets so much that it all felt samey and generic. I distinctly remember becoming confused as to which apartment I was in because everyone has the same decorator.
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Oct 6, 2019 18:10
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Prague and Chicago are both mazes pretending to be larger than they actually are. Hong Kong is more of a disguised long corridor which is less annoying.
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Oct 6, 2019 19:09
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At least you can't run across Prague zones in less than 30 seconds.
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Oct 6, 2019 19:25
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The most frustrating thing in HR after playing MD is walking past that giant bank right in the middle of Detroit multiple times without ever getting a chance to rob it.
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Oct 6, 2019 19:28
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Casimir Radon posted:At least you can't run across Prague zones in less than 30 seconds. You might want to check that, because it probably is about 30 seconds to run from one end to the other.
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Oct 6, 2019 19:40
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Ugly In The Morning posted:I get that, but I’m not saying do 3-5 hour chunks per month. Make most of the game before release, do 3-4 15 hour chunks a year and listen to player feedback to tweak it and you got yourself a greatest of all time game going. I would personally loving hate that 
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Oct 6, 2019 19:43
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Improbable Lobster posted:I would personally loving hate that I wouldn't care for it either, to be honest.
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Oct 7, 2019 03:44
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Alchenar posted:Prague and Chicago are both mazes pretending to be larger than they actually are. Hong Kong is more of a disguised long corridor which is less annoying. When do we go to Chicago?
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Oct 7, 2019 15:19
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chaosapiant posted:When do we go to Chicago? Sorry, phone posting while tired. I meant Detroit. Those interchangeable bad US cities.
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Oct 7, 2019 15:53
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Alchenar posted:Sorry, phone posting while tired. I meant Detroit. Detroit reminded me a lot of Battery Park in the original game. It's really just two streets with some back alleys mixed in. Prague is a vertical rubix cube of content, like a beehive or some poo poo. I adore them all though. I'd like to see a game as globally expansive as the first game but with hubs as detailed as Prague. I hope Cyberpunk is as detailed as Prague. I feel like that game will help make Deus Ex "cool again" to Square so they can ignore this dumb Avengers poo poo and have Eidos-Montreal finish the drat I Didn't Ask For This Trilogy.
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Oct 7, 2019 15:57
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chaosapiant posted:Detroit reminded me a lot of Battery Park in the original game. It's really just two streets with some back alleys mixed in. Prague is a vertical rubix cube of content, like a beehive or some poo poo. I adore them all though. I'd like to see a game as globally expansive as the first game but with hubs as detailed as Prague. I hope Cyberpunk is as detailed as Prague. I feel like that game will help make Deus Ex "cool again" to Square so they can ignore this dumb Avengers poo poo and have Eidos-Montreal finish the drat I Didn't Ask For This Trilogy. Prague isn't a Rubix cube. There's one north road, and one south road, and two little circular clusters left and right to squeeze in a couple of back alleys. 2d you can see it's very very simple - there's just lots of tricks thrown in to make it seem more complex than in actually is.  My view (and I freely admit this is personal preference) is that it's best to either go all-out as much as you can on being an open world game (ie. Witcher 3, Fallout/Skyrim), or to throw all of your efforts into mission environments (aka Dishonoured), but not this claustrophobic halfway house that Eidos attempted.
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Oct 7, 2019 16:24
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Alchenar posted:Prague isn't a Rubix cube. There's one north road, and one south road, and two little circular clusters left and right to squeeze in a couple of back alleys. 2d you can see it's very very simple - there's just lots of tricks thrown in to make it seem more complex than in actually is. Right, I'm not talking about the streets. I'm talking about all the interconnect apartments. Between the apartments which you can access multiple ways, back entrances to many places, the sewers, and the front entrance, Prague has a very "busy" layout.
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Oct 7, 2019 16:26
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love the Prague
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Oct 7, 2019 16:40
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It's also a massive disservice to say "oh yeah it's just a road pretty much" about Prague. That small tumor on the left that represents the bank is bigger than a lot of DX levels entirely on its own, as a reminder of the scale of Prague. To explore this hub fully will take a couple dozen hours. Saying that's it's the size of Battery Park is both incorrect and misleading.chaosapiant posted:When do we go to Chicago? In the opening cutscene to Invisible War, you're all welcome for the reminder. 
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Oct 7, 2019 20:41
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Prague's buildings do by and large recycle the same few floorplans for a lot of the map but that's both true to life and makes it so that the effort they spend making each one feel lived in and unique easier to appreciate. Like in real life if you were breaking into a bunch of apartments in the same building complex of course they would be basically the same layout of living room/kitchen/bedroom/bathroom mirrored across from each other, but the furniture and decor is different and the little tableaus of daily life and general environmental storytelling are some of the best the series has ever had. Like in the original Deus Ex there are only three or so rooms in the Ton that you can actually go into while you start Prague in a single apartment complex whose dozen-odd apartments are all rendered and explorable and unique with designated residents that have little backstories like their jobs and hobbies that reflect in what is littering their apartment and what side quests they might be involved in later.
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Oct 7, 2019 21:09
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new cat
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Oct 7, 2019 21:17
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Deus Ex HR and MD had amazing environmental design on their levels. It makes me sad when I see other games skimp on it, even if in MD it kind of made the actual amount of overworld feel small. IF Prague had just been one of like four total locations all the same size as Prague, (ala Detroit/HK in HR), I think people wouldn't have complained as much. But then again, MD really felt like only half a game-- especially that ending. Anyhow, I loved looking at all of the little poo poo inside the stuff thanks to the excellent interior environmental design/decoration. Adam's apartment is really well done and feels lived in, and yet it was so different from that random special ops general dude's apartment with the special secret closet that you break into once or twice. Plus, when I saw one of Adam's two little lightsaber candlestick at his little dinky corner desk at work it was so endearing. Plus it made me think his coworkers are like "jeez what a dweeb" which is even more endearing. edit - Man, I wish light diffused like that in real life because I'd fukken love a lightsaber candlestick. :sunglasses eyemod activate: jeeves fucked around with this message at 21:28 on Oct 7, 2019 |
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Oct 7, 2019 21:23
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I respect them trying something different with a single giant evolving hub, and I liked the idea on paper, but in practice I did not like Prague. I have that OCD itch that I imagine almost all Dues Ex players have to explore every little nook and cranny as early as possible and in this game that means you frontload several hours right at the beginning just wandering around the hub trying to find everything, and I much preferred having that exploration time spaced out with missions the way previous games and multiple smaller hubs worked. Plus, every time you come back you have to wonder what has changed and go through the whole thing again just to make sure. As well designed as it was, I was still sick of Prague by the time I was finished. The idea that I have to choose between either going through all of Prague at once again, or ignoring it and missing out on a bunch of goodies is one of the main reasons I haven't replayed the game.
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Oct 7, 2019 21:40
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jeeves posted:Deus Ex HR and MD had amazing environmental design on their levels. It makes me sad when I see other games skimp on it, even if in MD it kind of made the actual amount of overworld feel small. One thing I really liked about HR and MD is that a lot of their environmental design was based on cutting-edge art and design stuff in the real world that was just far enough ahead to have not become mass-produced and accessible at the cosumer level, but now you can go down to Target and get an abstract polygonal deer head trophy to mount on your wall or a set of light panels just like out of the game. It felt so good and futuristic because it was the actual future.   
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Oct 7, 2019 21:41
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counterfeitsaint posted:I respect them trying something different with a single giant evolving hub, and I liked the idea on paper, but in practice I did not like Prague. I have that OCD itch that I imagine almost all Dues Ex players have to explore every little nook and cranny as early as possible and in this game that means you frontload several hours right at the beginning just wandering around the hub trying to find everything, and I much preferred having that exploration time spaced out with missions the way previous games and multiple smaller hubs worked. Plus, every time you come back you have to wonder what has changed and go through the whole thing again just to make sure. As well designed as it was, I was still sick of Prague by the time I was finished. The idea that I have to choose between either going through all of Prague at once again, or ignoring it and missing out on a bunch of goodies is one of the main reasons I haven't replayed the game. I went in knowing that I’d be returning to Prague through the game, which helped curb the “EXPLORE EVERYTHING NOW!” Thing I do with the other DX games. I’d imagine I’d feel the same if I binged it all up front.
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Oct 7, 2019 21:42
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There are huge rose tinted glasses when it comes to remembering the first Deus Ex, as much as I love it. The detail in the environments was minimal compared to modern games, necessarily so due to the graphical limitations of the time, but the game used what it had to great effect to create an illusion of space. Most of Hong Kong and Paris for example were just large empty corridors or open areas and walled off buildings with gently caress all in the way of interactivity in a manner that absolutely wouldn't be acceptable in a modern game. And all the second half of the game is a series of unconnected levels, but it varies the locations and settings such that you at least feel you're travelling about. Saying 'oh they should have made Prague but x3' is massively disingenuous and really does a disservice to the amount of work that went into making it feel like a vibrant and lived in location. I guess if you blew through it not exploring or paying attention to your surroundings too much it would seem quite sparse but it really rewards taking a closer look and picking up on all the little threads lying around, stories told through emails or the detritus in people's apartments. There's definitely an argument that they could or should have had a more global scope with some of the missions, and maybe spread their development time around a bit more. The Utulek complex looked like it took a shitload of time to create but was probably larger and longer than it needed to be. Also, a problem with Prague is that if you're like me and try to explore and break into everywhere as soon as possible then you can gorge yourself on it leaving not a whole lot to do as the city changes. I definitely got my money's worth in terms of the time I spent climbing around and stuffing security guards into vents but I would have liked it to be dripfed a bit more. That was one of the best things about the way the opening third of Deus Ex was handled - revisiting Unatco was fun each time as you checked out what had changed and what new loot there was to steal. And revisiting Hells Kitchen briefly later in the game was a smart way to show the progression and degradation that had gone on in your absence.
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Oct 7, 2019 22:00
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I'm playing Mankind Divided for the first time. My first impression is that I'm not digging how the energy system still feels very restrictive. It's silly how Adam Jensen is supposed to be this amazing super-augmented billy badass. And yet the devs seem utterly terrified of letting the player actually play as that amazing super-augmented badass.
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Oct 7, 2019 23:16
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Just wait. You get pretty nuts in MD.
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Oct 8, 2019 05:05
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Mankind Divided is actually way more generous with its energy regen that vanilla HR was, it's kind of crazy to look back and remember that before the director's cut rerelease you only regenerated a single block of energy. Giving you two bars on all but the highest difficulty level is so much better in terms of letting you haeve fun with the game without breaking it wide open and making it boring. Also MD gives you an all-purpose biocell as a power recovery item while Human Revolution made you haul giant tubs of protein powder to get a full energy recovery or gobble down a stack of protein bars instead.
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Oct 8, 2019 05:21
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I miss the mental image of Jensen just chugging a huge jar of mayo to recharge though.
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Oct 8, 2019 05:24
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Grand Fromage posted:I miss the mental image of Jensen just chugging a huge jar of mayo to recharge though. Evergreen: https://i.imgur.com/Sg3DQmd.gifv
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Oct 8, 2019 05:43
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Grand Fromage posted:I miss the mental image of Jensen just chugging a huge jar of mayo to recharge though. JC Tenton origin story, or at least the one he tells.
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Oct 8, 2019 08:43
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prague is a great deus ex hub because you can do as many B&E's as you want
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Oct 8, 2019 11:42
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Grand Fromage posted:Just wait. You get pretty nuts in MD.
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Oct 8, 2019 14:55
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No, the best you can do is upgrade your base electric power amount-how much/how fast you can recharge back with all auge off.
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Oct 8, 2019 15:13
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