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I mean, he seems pretty happy where he is and that's fine. I'm just a little lost on why he felt the need to post his story on the Negotiation Thread when no negotiating has yet taken place or is likely to. "Hey, I think I deserve a manager title, may I please have one?" is not negotiating.
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Oct 8, 2019 16:13
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There's also no harm in seeing if another company will pay him more right now. If he gets an offer and doesn't like it he's under no obligation to take it and it's good interview/negotiation practice even if it doesn't work out.
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Oct 8, 2019 18:32
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Maybe I'm being silly or the concept of legally mandated wages is foreign to you guys, I really can't tell. Basically, the unions barter a wage agreement. It's a minimum wage for each industry, as well as a lot of other benefits (or not) above the minimum standard set by the law. All companies are bound by this contract and can not underbid it. Within IT, there's several levels, depending on your qualification you get sorted into these levels and have a higher (or lower) minimum wage that is actually already pretty decent pay. It's why a lot of companies try to qualify as different industries with laxer collective agreements and lower minimum wage (for example, the biggest ISP in my area is a cable company and adheres to cable tech minimum wage). As I've said, I just negotiated a decent paybump that I am very happy with, I was already shopping around before that and could have gotten a bit more money, but the work life balance and my general happiness at my current company is very good, which gives me very little incentive to switch jobs for just a little more money. As I have come up far closer to my max with these negotiations, I have absolutely no reason to look for a new job. All I'm trying to do now is get assigned a higher minimum wage group, because it has the additional benefit of automatically giving me more money over time in case there is any sort of change in leadership or other reason negotiations would fail in the future.
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Oct 8, 2019 18:52
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It's an American capitalist hell scape perspective. Can you just be fired from your job? Can your boss just walk into your office and terminated your position?
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Oct 8, 2019 18:57
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I got a verbal offer today for a position several states away. The recruiter didn't have all the details, but they told me that they'll put me in touch with someone else who will send me a formal offer letter after I accept the position. The recruiter was taken aback that I asked for a couple days to make a decision, despite the fact that it involves a 500 mile move. Should I be accepting the position before I get a formal offer with all of the details? Would I be in the wrong to back out after "accepting" if the formal offer looks bad or I get a better one? I've talked to a couple people who seem to think this is bizarre behavior but I'm not sure if it just differs from company to company.
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Oct 8, 2019 19:12
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Goodpancakes posted:It's an American capitalist hell scape perspective. Can you just be fired from your job? Can your boss just walk into your office and terminated your position? Yeah, but it's 3 months notice.
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Oct 8, 2019 19:12
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SEKCobra posted:Maybe I'm being silly or the concept of legally mandated wages is foreign to you guys, I really can't tell. In the US it's basically the norm for someone to be making $50k, ask for a 20% raise and be told it's ridiculous/impossible, and then go out and interview and find a job paying $125k. This is especially true now for certain kinds of jobs because there are significant job skill shortfalls in things like programming. It has something weird to do with personal greed and resentment and idiocy, I dunno why people are like that here. My impression of Europe in general is that while similar situations certainly exist, that number range is much more compressed so a guy might be making $75k and could maybe find a job paying $85k. In which case it's much more of a "meh" if he is happy in his $75k role.
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Oct 8, 2019 19:12
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Droo posted:In the US it's basically the norm for someone to be making $50k, ask for a 20% raise and be told it's ridiculous/impossible, and then go out and interview and find a job paying $125k. This is especially true now for certain kinds of jobs because there are significant job skill shortfalls in things like programming. It has something weird to do with personal greed and resentment and idiocy, I dunno why people are like that here. IDK, I got my 20% raiseby playing hardball, I'm happy. Really, by shifting the negotiation towards the level change, I made the money raise even firmer for myself, because we pretty much immediately stopped negotiating that.
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Oct 8, 2019 19:15
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SEKCobra posted:IDK, I got my 20% raiseby playing hardball, I'm happy. Really, by shifting the negotiation towards the level change, I made the money raise even firmer for myself, because we pretty much immediately stopped negotiating that. I don't really have a personal opinion on your situation, but what people are trying to point out to you is that: 1. Just because you got a raise doesn't mean you are fairly compensated - you might be the $50k guy now getting $60k, not looking for that $125k job 2. Your workplace might be paying you temporarily with the intention to replace you. This might be because they think you will leave for a better job with better pay inevitably (since you "played hardball" with them once already), or because your boss feels personal resentment that you got a raise, or whatever Edit: with that said if you're happy and you think you are fairly compensated based on the job market you're in, then go for it. But people in this particular thread are going to yell at you until you change jobs every 2 years 
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Oct 8, 2019 19:27
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Yashichi posted:I got a verbal offer today for a position several states away. The recruiter didn't have all the details, but they told me that they'll put me in touch with someone else who will send me a formal offer letter after I accept the position. The recruiter was taken aback that I asked for a couple days to make a decision, despite the fact that it involves a 500 mile move. Bizarre? No. It's bog standard slimy recruiter pressure tactics. Tell them to get hosed and quit wasting your time, and call back when they have a written offer in hand for you that meets your terms.
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Oct 8, 2019 19:43
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Though I am definitely not familiar at all with legally mandated pay raises, the point isn't that you might not get the raise (though that would absolutely be the point in the US), the point is that you might be able to find a job that pays you that much or close to it and be in that job for the next 4 years instead of just waiting for that raise. EDIT: this is in reference to SEKCobra's post, not the one just above mine
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Oct 8, 2019 19:44
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Droo posted:I don't really have a personal opinion on your situation, but what people are trying to point out to you is that: I am not sure this applies to a union job with set pay levels across the industry (as he explains it). His specific personal situation matters to the discussion with him, but not to the big picture discussion.
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Oct 8, 2019 19:47
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spwrozek posted:I am not sure this applies to a union job with set pay levels across the industry (as he explains it). His specific personal situation matters to the discussion with him, but not to the big picture discussion.
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Oct 8, 2019 19:49
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Hoodwinker posted:I think what people are trying to say is that he could potentially get a job at another company at a higher level, thus achieving higher pay. Potentially. I don't know how the upper limit works but he also said this: It's a minimum wage for each industry, as well as a lot of other benefits (or not) above the minimum standard set by the law. All companies are bound by this contract and can not underbid it. So not sure how jumping jobs nets more money. I also don't know much about the way the unions work outside of the US. E: also not saying don't go look for a new job. Just that the typical standard advice might not exactly with here spwrozek fucked around with this message at 19:59 on Oct 8, 2019 |
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Oct 8, 2019 19:57
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Eric the Mauve posted:Bizarre? No. It's bog standard slimy recruiter pressure tactics. Tell them to get hosed and quit wasting your time, and call back when they have a written offer in hand for you that meets your terms. This is correct. If you do verbally accept and don’t like the terms, it’s also fine to back out. Droo posted:Edit: with that said if you're happy and you think you are fairly compensated based on the job market you're in, then go for it. But people in this particular thread are going to yell at you until you change jobs every 2 years People in this thread are going to encourage you to get compensated for what you’re worth because that is what this thread is for. If you’re coming here asking questions about how to do that, they’re going to default to the tried and true method of getting paid what you’re worth, which is going into the market and selling your services to someone else. Your employer is almost always going to compensate you less than market other than immediately upon hiring you (if you negotiated well), therefore if you want to make more, you go to market with your services. There are downsides to this, but if compensation is your motivating factor, it’s what you need to do.
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Oct 8, 2019 20:02
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spwrozek posted:Potentially. I don't know how the upper limit works but he also said this: Which once again raises the question of why exactly this discussion is in the Negotiating Thread. It circles back to an important point that naive people miss again and again: You asking your boss for more money or a better title is NOT negotiating. Negotiating is when you have something they want (most commonly in the BFF context, your services as an employee) and they have something you want (most commonly, money) and you try to get as much of what you want out of the other party as possible (most commonly, by having multiple employers interested in your services, i.e. by a company currently employing you and a different one valuing you higher than they do). When you go to your boss at your review and say "We agree I'm pretty awesome, I think I deserve a big raise/promotion, can we do that please?" that's just you asking for a favor and appealing to their sense of fairness. Which if you've spent longer than ten minutes in Real Life you should know by now that companies don't have a sense of fairness. The only things they have a sense for are money and power. If you have no BATNA then you aren't in a negotiation.
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Oct 8, 2019 20:06
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It is probably the most appropriate thread? I don't think we have an annual review thread: how to I get more money/title/etc. Not sure we have to be so rigid.
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Oct 8, 2019 20:36
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Because usually the answer to that is "it's up to your employer"? Or "make sure your boss is good and fights for their team members"
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Oct 8, 2019 20:40
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spwrozek posted:It is probably the most appropriate thread? I don't think we have an annual review thread: how to I get more money/title/etc. Not sure we have to be so rigid. Because you basically can't do anything about the annual review/raise stuff. That all hinges on whether or not you have a boss that will fight for you to get a good raise and whether or not HR/higher-ups are going to shut down your boss fighting for a bigger raise for you. The only thing you can do on your own to maybe *slightly* improve the odds of a good raise is keeping track of your accomplishments, and even then, "do you have a good boss that will fight for you?". It's pretty much out of your hands. Speaking up for yourself is pretty much the only advice there. And even then that's only gonna work like 10% of the time. I was stuck in a job for a little while and I *did* have a good boss that fought for me- she got me a 10% raise when the company explicitly claimed they were only giving 3% max, but I was making so little at the time that was literally just a couple bucks an hour. I make almost 3x what I made at that job now, 3 years later, and that company no longer exists. m0therfux0r fucked around with this message at 20:55 on Oct 8, 2019 |
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Oct 8, 2019 20:52
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IDK my company lost half the tech force a few months ago and I consider that decent BATNA. I am one of two people with all the tribal knowledge left at the company. I have tons of offers at similar levels of what I just got raised to and I still just went in and said I want to be payed a more appropriate amount for my role. At no point did I imply or suggest that I would leave if not paid more, the CEO clearly indicated from the start that they wanted to pay me more, it was just a question of how much. Maybe you don't consider this negotiating, but around here it's perfectly normal to review your salary every year and make a case for how much it should be. Index is adjusted automatically (usually same as inflation).
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Oct 8, 2019 21:31
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Negotiating isn't all forms of "well let's look at my pay", though apparently some people come into this thread and post about it. Negotiating is two parties coming to an agreement, and, generally, neither party getting what they asked for at the outset of discussions about the agreement. If you post in this thread with some form of "well my employer dictated review is coming up and they need to pay me because my employer has been overtasking me / fired half their IT department / is being invaded by squirrels and I have valuable squirrel remediation skills" you don't get it. The reason you don't get it, is because you dont' have an answer for "what if they don't pay you?" If you ask for poo poo and they say "no", then you haven't negotiated anything. You got shot down. Negotiation is about leverage. If there aren't consequences for my request being denied then it's not negotiation. Hoodwinker was engaged in negotiation because he was talking to three companies, and the consequence for two of them if they didn't give him the most appealing offer was that the third would retain his services as an employee. Tiny Tubesteak Tom is not in negotiation because he's underpaid for his labor by $12k / year and will continue working there if he's underpaid for his labor by $8k / year because not working isn't palatable. And apparently the only choices are work underpaid for this one company, or don't work. Bamhand was negotiating because if the new company said "No" he'd tell them to pound sand and retain current employment. SEKCobra, you are not negotiating, because "I have a lot of tribal knowledge" is not a BATNA. "I have a lot of tribal knowledge and 5 years living expenses saved up that I'm happy to deplete" is a BATNA. "I have a lot of tribal knowledge and another job offer which brings me in with the employment grade that sets me on the minimum pay bands I'm asking for" is a BATNA. "I have a lot of tribal knowledge and I'm sufficiently pissed that I'll get up and walk out and rely on my glorious civilized social welfare systems" is a BATNA.
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Oct 8, 2019 21:59
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Asking your boss for a raise is negotiating like asking someone for a date is negotiating. If your question is "how do I persuade my boss to give me more money/power" and that's the only question you're interested in, then the best answer is "go read some Dale Carnegie books and try to improve your personal charisma".
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Oct 8, 2019 22:18
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My understanding is that a negotiation aimed at reaching an amicable agreement for both parties. My boss wouldn't have payed me more by himself and would have given me a smaller raise without me advocating for myself. If this wasn't a negotiation I guess I'm sorry for bothering you guys.
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Oct 9, 2019 06:46
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A negotiation is aimed at reaching an agreement that both sides find superior to their alternatives, NOT an amicable agreement. Amicability has nothing to do with it. There are extremely successful confrontational or hostile negotiating styles. All styles do not work the same and are not equally applicable in situations. What you are failing to realize is that this is a thread about learning how to negotiate better. As people suggest different strategies and concepts to you, you seem to be very uninterested in learning about any of them! You were successful in that you reached an agreement that was superior to you not asking at all - however, most of the thread is rightfully recognizing that you were negotiating from a position of weakness and advocating for you to strengthen your position for future negotiations. What would you have done, for instance, if your boss told you to kick rocks?
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Oct 9, 2019 16:16
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I want to add something to this conversation: In my masters program, I had a class in negotiations, which I was excited for as a long-time follower of the thread. It was eye-opening how poorly I did in some of the exercises. It was also fascinating to see how some classmates with more experience could take people's lunch money. I came away a better negotiator but also with a lot of humility for how little I know.
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Oct 9, 2019 19:34
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Xguard86 posted:I want to add something to this conversation: Anything you can share without a case to contextualize it against? This thread is definitely just for Babby's First Adversarial Negotiation but I'd like to hear anything you'd share in terms of higher level wisdom
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Oct 9, 2019 19:40
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Dwight Eisenhower posted:Anything you can share without a case to contextualize it against? This thread is definitely just for Babby's First Adversarial Negotiation but I'd like to hear anything you'd share in terms of higher level wisdom
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Oct 9, 2019 19:43
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Let's see, idk if any of this will surprise anyone: The concepts are similar to what we discuss here: batna, reserve price, the zone of agreement, etc. How the stronger your batna, the more you can command. Don't give away your reserve price. Basics. Along with the cases, we had a midterm that was pretty much a routine school test. I got an A+ just off of reading this thread for a few years lol. A lot of value here, given away for free. We talked a lot about distributive v integrative negotiations. Aka cutting up a pie vs. making the pie bigger. I was very good at integrative and bad at distributive. Basically: smart but too nice. I improved towards the end, but I have to remind myself to be more firm/aggressive when it is necessary. The most interesting and hardest negotiations were when we had both types inside the framework. Discovering each other's interests but then dividing them up. This is where the experienced people shined because they knew when to collaborate and when to get theirs. I also noticed that they were better at estimating the other side's reserve. For example, one guy was an officer in Afghanistan before discharge. He learned a lot negotiating with tribal leaders. Hard to come away as the winner sitting across from him. One thing we don't talk about too much here is the cognitive biases. For example, the power of anchoring. You really really should ask for a million $ as an opening for a job. poo poo even just working a big number into unrelated conversations. Vice versa, too: I can see now how HR uses these things to push offers lower. There's a book called "influence" by Robert Cialdini that I think *everyone* should read. For texts, We primarily used two books: "getting to yes" and "negotiation genius". I think both come up in our thread. However, it became clear to me that negotiating is more like a sport or music. You need a lot of reps and real practice to be any good and really all the academics are secondary. Xguard86 fucked around with this message at 20:34 on Oct 9, 2019 |
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Oct 9, 2019 20:32
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I think we really don't focus on anchoring and conditioning techniques much in this thread and there's room to up the game there too. I particularly like Chris Voss's exercises in abusing defensive conditioning, which is basically "getting to No"
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Oct 9, 2019 20:48
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My own thoughts (not taught to me by a phd so reader beware!) are that a big reason HR hiring practices are often so torturous is to try to wash those human fallacies out of their side and use them to get better deals from prospects. Like when you name a salary on a form: you give away not only your probable reserve but anchor at the lowest end of the conversation. Terrible! Or when your comp negotiations go through various business rules and levels: they're trying to negate the biases that could have been created "in the room". Same thought for why your boss can't just give you a raise. NOT saying they're smart/evil enough to be doing it intentionally but using the accumulated knowledge from the job and best practices learned through training.
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Oct 9, 2019 22:13
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yeah we did a bunch of that recently in my leadership group, it was pretty interesting. we suck as a group at anchoring. I read back at the beginning of the thread and someone linked Bargaining for Advantage, which I've found fairly useful. Don't read too much in to the negotiation styles - but one of the keys I think is that to negotiate, you first have to be honest with yourself. and then you have to plan. you have to try to run the negotiation from the other party's point of view and try to understand what will motivate them and what their issues may be.
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Oct 9, 2019 22:16
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:yeah we did a bunch of that recently in my leadership group, it was pretty interesting. we suck as a group at anchoring. I read back at the beginning of the thread and someone linked Bargaining for Advantage, which I've found fairly useful. Don't read too much in to the negotiation styles - but one of the keys I think is that to negotiate, you first have to be honest with yourself. and then you have to plan. you have to try to run the negotiation from the other party's point of view and try to understand what will motivate them and what their issues may be. I really enjoyed that book. It helped me a lot more with more collaborative negotiation. More transactional negotiation just required me to be more of an rear end in a top hat. Because initial salary discussion/hiring is actually a transactional negotiation that masquerades as a collaborative negotiation, it helps to apply for, interview for and negotiate for a lot of jobs (even, if as I do, I'm perfectly happy and overwhelmingly likely to stay in my current role).
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Oct 9, 2019 22:25
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Oh I forgot to mention an important point. Remembered when i that post above: It was really, really obvious who prepared for a negotiation. Even a bad negotiator well prepared did much better than folks who were stronger but checked out that week. it really drilled into me how you need to do your research, think about their perspective and know your numbers. Again, a lot of sport/ performance analogies.
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Oct 9, 2019 22:27
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:What would you have done, for instance, if your boss told you to kick rocks? Taken a new job 🤫
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Oct 9, 2019 22:39
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The most useful overarching theme from Voss contained in the "Getting to No" concept is that the surest path to a successful negotiation for you is getting what you want while letting the other side think they won. It's a big reason why anchoring super high is important: it leaves lots of room for you to concede ground and ultimately agree on a number you're happy with while they feel good about having negotiated you down. (Of course, if the other party is any good they know that too, and then you get into nth-level poker theory: she knows that I know that she knows that...) Secrets of Power Negotiating (Roger Dawson) is 30 years old now but still a drat useful book to read. Eric the Mauve fucked around with this message at 23:10 on Oct 9, 2019 |
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Oct 9, 2019 23:07
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Xguard86 posted:
Having given the million dollar (I used seven figure) number was the most empowering thing I’ve done in a long time. Did it for the first time this year and will do it always from now on. Until I am actually making seven figures and have to start asking for eight.
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Oct 10, 2019 03:52
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Xguard86 posted:Oh I forgot to mention an important point. Remembered when i that post above: yuuuuuup this is absolutely huge
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Oct 10, 2019 14:11
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How does the scoring work for mock negotiations? Do you have to reach an agreement? Do people generally play more hard ball because there's no consequence for "losing" ?
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Oct 10, 2019 14:26
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Each side has a role with their perspective and issues they value. Sometimes dollars sometimes points to represent your interest. An example: Person A issue #1 Option 1 500 Option 2 400 Option 3 300 Person B issue #1 Option 1 200 Option 2 300 Option 3 400 There is also a batna for if you don't make a deal. Like no-deal = 100. Batnas were lower than the deal but not always symmetrical. So if you played too hard you get your batna and get a lower score than someone who made a deal. However, because batnas are not symmetrical, that could be a worse outcome for one side so they need a better deal to not walk away. In this case, each side wants something different, but person A cares more. It's an overall lower value deal to split the difference. If B is smart, they give A option 1, probably in exchange for their big issue. Sometimes each side wants the same thing. sometimes it's equal values but different wants, so someone is going to take more benefit. You make your deal, and the instructor tallies the overall deal score and determines how each side did. For ours, she also applied a z-score since we were being judged against each other with a variety of different cases. Within each scenario, there are also unique details. Like one we were only permitted to send emails, no f2f or phone calls, another one person is the agent and might not perfectly align with their client. Xguard86 fucked around with this message at 17:40 on Oct 10, 2019 |
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Oct 10, 2019 17:37
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I like bargaining for advantage and getting to yes a lot. I may have mentioned before in this thread but my favourite negotiation game was when we split the group into pairs (these were lawyers so the premise was they were negotiating on behalf of clients). All but one pair had a genuine negotiation scenario like the ones mentions above. The last pair, one of them had a genuine list of issues and the other one just had a slip of paper saying “Say no to everything, explain nothing and don’t blame the client.” Why yes, it was based on a real scenario.
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Oct 10, 2019 17:57
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