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"Its not a dream if it is real" It does seem to me that this whole shebang is Xavier using his newly godlike telepathic powers to make his dream of mutant utopia a reality. However fake it might be. The guy has the new cerebro that allows him to back up full consciousness of the whole mutant population every week (which I think is the same helmet from the end of Rosenberg's run), so making everyone act according to his own agenda shouldn't be a problem. His old pal Magneto is sharing his vision all of the sudden. Jean is not the strong willed woman she has been for years but the adolescent he fell in love with. Greatest mutant villains dont try to turn the situation to their own benefit but agree with everything Xavier lays out. All of the grudges, painful love triangles and animosity just evaporates as everyone just shares a cold one. And obviously he doesn't have any qualms about using his powers like that as shown by his interaction with Sinister or the UN council.
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Oct 6, 2019 01:47
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Basically Xavier has recreated Moira's power but for all of mutantkind.
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Oct 7, 2019 22:03
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You know, I took just enough philosophy classes in college that it's warped my brain, so I'm having a hard time getting over the basic metaphysics of the resurrection method. If Xavier battery-backups your mind, and the Krakoa island crew teams up to reproduce your body, and the two get reunited to form a somehow perfectly functional version of you... is that still you, or is it just a duplicate that thinks it is? Wouldn't it be more apt to say that it's a sequel or a continuation, rather than you? Obviously, from the outside, as per the terms of the fiction, it's as good as resurrection, but if it happened to you, would that still be you behind those eyes, or are you dead and there's somebody else doing your work back in the world? I'm overthinking this, but it bothers me.
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Oct 7, 2019 22:55
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The you that died is definitely gone. We see this with Cyclops. It's replacement, not resurrection.
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Oct 7, 2019 22:57
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You kind of run into the same problem every time your brain powers down and you go to sleep. The you that wakes up is a new person.
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Oct 7, 2019 23:03
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I believe it's called the X-Man of Theseus.
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Oct 8, 2019 00:10
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Billzasilver posted:You kind of run into the same problem every time your brain powers down and you go to sleep. The you that wakes up is a new person. Exactly. If you went to sleep and were replaced by a perfect clone with all of your memories, how would you tell the difference? What constitutes 'you' is a process, not an immutable entity. And processes can be duplicated.
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Oct 8, 2019 01:48
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Except souls are real and like a dozen people on their island have been to literal heaven. Even more have been to hell. So the answer to how you tell the difference is "Magic, which a bunch of us know, or really advanced technology, which basically does the same thing". This isn't a philosophical question in their world. It was answered, definitively, forever. And if you get popped and someone makes a clone of you, well, I hope you lived a good life and your mutant terrorism actually WAS justified. Otherwise you will scream forever in quite real hell. Or that that cloning process gives enough of a poo poo to get your soul and plop it in there. Or that clone you doesn't have a soul, and when called on to commit crimes and die just fades away from existence rather than the eternal torment thing. e: You could get some mileage about religion in a story set in one of these comic worlds where it's just definitive that the vast majority of stuff everyone believes is totally 100% true. Mulva fucked around with this message at 02:13 on Oct 8, 2019 |
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Oct 8, 2019 02:08
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ashpanash posted:Exactly. If you went to sleep and were replaced by a perfect clone with all of your memories, how would you tell the difference? A major factor in this is twofold: They are not perfect clones with all their memories. They are regularly backed up, this is stated, but they will lose at least some memories and effectively be a 'earlier' version of themselves. The moment someone has a conversation with a resurrected person who that person doesn't remember is the moment that becomes clear. Not to mention the very real possibility of *duplicating* the person. And the other is, as I said earlier, souls are real in the Marvel Universe, so it raises the question of if the soul is the actual one or not.
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Oct 8, 2019 02:15
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It's the part where the animus is "stored" in Cerebro that makes the process very metaphysically...ah, unsound. Even if we accept that Xavier is able to transfer someone's actual soul and "self" from one body to a different body entirely -- and mutant psychics have done this before, so there is precedence for it -- that's not exactly what's happening here, is it? What Xavier's doing is making a...backup. He's storing an entire copy of someone in a static memory bank, while that someone is still around and doing things and becoming a different person. Even if we accept that Cerebro can hold souls, how can that soul be within Cerebro but also still with the original person at the same time? By all rights and definitions this is a method of cloning; not just of the body, but of someone's soul as well.
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Oct 8, 2019 02:48
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This problems comes up a lot in sci fi books. The authors usually just ignore it (although at least a couple I can think of acknowledge it but quickly move on) and everyone acts like the perfect replica is the original. If I recall correctly there's a bit in a China Mieville book where a guy appears who's gone insane from the weight of having undergone something like Star Trek teleportation many times which effectively murdered him over and over. Hickman is pretty knowledgeable about the big hard sci fi questions so I'm sure he's aware of the issue - 50 50 as to whether he takes it head on. (Re his sci fi influences I am dead loving sure his far future Technarcy stuff is influenced by John C Wright's Count to Eschaton series, which has sapient star clusters incorporating new civilisations into a very hard sci fi galactic cooperative and a detailed hierarchy based on intelligence levels as manifested in thinking-matter planets, solar systems etc. Wright is a nutso opinionated hateable super conservative religious type but he's pretty imaginative and I strongly suspect Hickman is riffing on him.)
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Oct 8, 2019 04:41
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KfHbsMa_wao
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Oct 8, 2019 04:49
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Billzasilver posted:You kind of run into the same problem every time your brain powers down and you go to sleep. The you that wakes up is a new person. No, you don't, because your brain doesn't "power down" when you go to sleep. This is a common argument in continuity of consciousness debates, but sleep is not analogous to death. Your brain is active while you're sleeping, it's just in a different mode. You might as well say you lose continuity of consciousness when you blink. Anyway, yeah, based on what we currently know, it's just cloning with a memory backup process. The characters seem to think otherwise, though, to the extent that they decide murdering a mutant should not be a crime on Krakoa - which is a bit baffling. Even assuming it's true resurrection, wouldn't there be a degree of mental trauma from being murdered that the perpetrator would be culpable for?
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Oct 8, 2019 09:31
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Android Blues posted:No, you don't, because your brain doesn't "power down" when you go to sleep. This is a common argument in continuity of consciousness debates, but sleep is not analogous to death. Your brain is active while you're sleeping, it's just in a different mode. You might as well say you lose continuity of consciousness when you blink. I could see this last part being shown to be an issue but, in defense of it, being horrifically murdered wouldn't be as traumatizing for me and everyone else if I could wake up the next morning and beat the poo poo out of the person that did it.
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Oct 8, 2019 10:08
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Android Blues posted:Anyway, yeah, based on what we currently know, it's just cloning with a memory backup process. The characters seem to think otherwise, though, to the extent that they decide murdering a mutant should not be a crime on Krakoa - which is a bit baffling. Even assuming it's true resurrection, wouldn't there be a degree of mental trauma from being murdered that the perpetrator would be culpable for? I don't think they decided it wasn't a crime, just that it wasn't the highest priority. These are the first laws, not the only ones.
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Oct 8, 2019 11:00
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I don't have the issue handy to double check, but I'm pretty sure the issue that explained resurrection said that Cerebro creates a backup of every mutant once a week and resurrection itself only takes place after Cerebro hasn't been able to copy someone for a month to ensure they don't accidentally "bring back" someone who isn't really dead. So nobody will ever remember experiencing death.
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Oct 8, 2019 13:02
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Android Blues posted:sleep is not analogous to death That's not what Nas told me, man.
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Oct 8, 2019 13:15
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Neurosis posted:This problems comes up a lot in sci fi books. The authors usually just ignore it (although at least a couple I can think of acknowledge it but quickly move on) and everyone acts like the perfect replica is the original. If I recall correctly there's a bit in a China Mieville book where a guy appears who's gone insane from the weight of having undergone something like Star Trek teleportation many times which effectively murdered him over and over. I have to correct this because he's my favorite character in anything. The gentleman in question is insane because he's haunted by the ghost of a previous self from each time he's teleported.
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Oct 8, 2019 13:45
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Seemlar posted:I don't have the issue handy to double check, but I'm pretty sure the issue that explained resurrection said that Cerebro creates a backup of every mutant once a week and resurrection itself only takes place after Cerebro hasn't been able to copy someone for a month to ensure they don't accidentally "bring back" someone who isn't really dead. Can't reach or their death has been witnessed/confirmed, yeah.
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Oct 8, 2019 14:04
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Nevvy Z posted:I have to correct this because he's my favorite character in anything. What book is this? Sounds interesting.
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Oct 8, 2019 14:54
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Fritzler posted:What book is this? Sounds interesting. Kraken. It's pretty good urban fantasy london type stuff. I'm so excited about tomorrow. My best guess is that they are trying to upload mutants as a whole species into the phalanx network or whatever but now black holes are sentient so who knows what it'll be about. Harold Fjord fucked around with this message at 17:38 on Oct 8, 2019 |
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Oct 8, 2019 17:33
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Android Blues posted:No, you don't, because your brain doesn't "power down" when you go to sleep. This is a common argument in continuity of consciousness debates, but sleep is not analogous to death. Your brain is active while you're sleeping, it's just in a different mode. You might as well say you lose continuity of consciousness when you blink. Is that functionally any different though? If you go to sleep, you have no idea what happens to you next. You could literally wake up in Xavier’s egg pod the next day, with no idea if you died or it was just a prank.
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Oct 8, 2019 22:30
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Billzasilver posted:Is that functionally any different though? If you go to sleep, you have no idea what happens to you next. You could literally wake up in Xavier’s egg pod the next day, with no idea if you died or it was just a prank. As different as a computer in sleep mode is with a computer who's internals have been removed and destroyed with a hammer. That said, as far as we know our sense of continuity is a quirk of our memories, themselves recorded imperfectly. There really isn't any way to know what does and does not constitute "you", ie, the abstract viewer inside your head, and it's continued existence.
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Oct 8, 2019 22:43
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It does mess with stuff like the fact Nightcrawler was literally in heaven after dying and came back once before.
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Oct 8, 2019 22:51
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Skwirl posted:It does mess with stuff like the fact Nightcrawler was literally in heaven after dying and came back once before. Or does it? Nightcrawler has been a man of faith, who never let himself fall prey to hatred or wrath. And was rewarded by going to Heaven. He has seen what lies beyond the pearly gates. And now that he has been banned from there, he has decided to spend all his life having orgies on an island with his best friends and mother present. What else is a mutant with two dicks to do?
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Oct 8, 2019 23:20
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It's also interesting in light of Layla Miller's power, which is explicitly resurrection without a soul.
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Oct 8, 2019 23:42
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rantmo posted:It's also interesting in light of Layla Miller's power, which is explicitly resurrection without a soul. Yeah, she's kind of outmoded now. Maybe she can get by on sheer "knowing stuff".
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Oct 9, 2019 02:39
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Layla and Jamie can now be happily retired.
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Oct 9, 2019 03:06
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Cloks posted:Yeah, she's kind of outmoded now. Maybe she can get by on sheer "knowing stuff". That ran out because it was her future self feeding intel to her younger stuff until she caught up with herself/her personal timeline. gently caress, I love comic books.
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Oct 9, 2019 03:23
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I want to know how Krakoa grew an extra part of itself on the other side of the planet. Did they just take a pail of dirt from it and dump it on an existing island to grow or just take a rowboat to the middle of the ocean with a flower warp and he just extended some branches out into it? Does that initial warp have to remain open or the remote island loses link with its consciousness and falls into the ocean? Should I keep calling Krakoa an "it" or does s/he have a gender and I'm being insensitive?
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Oct 9, 2019 04:12
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davebo posted:I want to know how Krakoa grew an extra part of itself on the other side of the planet. Did they just take a pail of dirt from it and dump it on an existing island to grow or just take a rowboat to the middle of the ocean with a flower warp and he just extended some branches out into it? Does that initial warp have to remain open or the remote island loses link with its consciousness and falls into the ocean? Should I keep calling Krakoa an "it" or does s/he have a gender and I'm being insensitive? I think it’s male simply by virtue of being merged with Doug in the future, but maybe that’s more Doug than Krakoa.
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Oct 9, 2019 04:26
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Wanderer posted:You know, I took just enough philosophy classes in college that it's warped my brain, so I'm having a hard time getting over the basic metaphysics of the resurrection method. Xavier: I once told you about a sailor who described drowning to me. Wolverine: Yes, he said it was like going home. Xavier: I was lying. He said it was agony.
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Oct 9, 2019 04:34
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davebo posted:I want to know how Krakoa grew an extra part of itself on the other side of the planet I interpreted it as being the same Krakoa connected through the center of the Earth...
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Oct 9, 2019 04:49
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Anyway I'm on a business trip so will not be near a comics store tomorrow but I'm so excited for the new issue of X-Men that I am going to buy it digitally and will have to get a hardcopy at a later date and this is not the sort of problem my dad would have when he went on business trips so there's that.
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Oct 9, 2019 04:52
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For eleventh hour wild speculative guesses, I'm going with "the newly rezzed mutants imprint on Xavier when they come out of the goldballs, like baby birds do towards the first thing they see, and that's why they instinctively follow everything he says."
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Oct 9, 2019 05:26
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Billzasilver posted:Is that functionally any different though? If you go to sleep, you have no idea what happens to you next. You could literally wake up in Xavier’s egg pod the next day, with no idea if you died or it was just a prank. If you were to close your eyes and stop up your ears, if all your senses were somehow blocked from perceiving the world around you, you'd have a limited perception of your circumstances - but that wouldn't mean there had been a gap in your brain's activity. Likewise, the brain is still operating and preserving your consciousness (such as it is) while you're sleeping. You can dream, move, respond to stimuli, etc. You're just restricted from certain forms of thought and perception that are particular to the waking mind.
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Oct 9, 2019 09:34
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Nothing earth shattering, but I enjoyed the last issue and I’m excited about the new status quo.
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Oct 9, 2019 10:48
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Yeah it helped tidy things up to prep for the new series, which I'm very ready for.
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Oct 9, 2019 13:05
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not crazy about the idea of Moira giving birth to Proteus as just part of the plan
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Oct 9, 2019 15:16
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I think the thing I appreciated is that it really cleared up the stakes moving forward, in terms of what Team X is actively trying to prevent, especially given "we always lose". Moira has personal stakes at odds with Mystique. Charles still believes in people, wanting to tell everybody the truth at some point. It felt like a pretty big revelation that Proteus and Legion were born on purpose by Moira and Charles. And still some mystery with the missing entries! A couple places where you can make out a little text, including at the bottom of entry 35: "I am just as bad as th"
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