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Blaze Dragon posted:The critical hit system in Gen 1 was hilariously complex and I'm glad all of that was dropped for the more clear, more normalized version from Gen 2 onwards. I can't imagine being a kid and trying to understand that mess...then again, even as an adult some calculations in Pokemon are impossible to understand for me, like catch chances. I don't think anyone would ever know the exact formulas going on, at best you'd probably just know faster Pokemon crit more often. & if yo ugot really into the competitive scene in the late 90s, maybe start noticing how certain pokemon will always crit with certain moves. Which as an abstraction probably works as intended. see also: guarantee no one knew the specifics of how stat exp worked, just that if you trained pokemon the hard way they did better. MAYBE see a correlation between faster pokemon making YOUR pokemon faster.
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Oct 10, 2019 04:45
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Iwata owned.
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Oct 10, 2019 04:56
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One other important thing about critical hits is that they ignore all stat changes, for both sides. This means no amount of Swords Dancing or Leering can increase the damage, and no amount of Growling or Hardening will lower it. This also means that sometimes a crit will do less damage than a normal hit would do, if there are lots of stat changes. Blaze Dragon posted:The critical hit system in Gen 1 was hilariously complex and I'm glad all of that was dropped for the more clear, more normalized version from Gen 2 onwards. I can't imagine being a kid and trying to understand that mess...then again, even as an adult some calculations in Pokemon are impossible to understand for me, like catch chances. I'd be more than happy to try my hand at making the math in this thread more palatable for folks who aren't quite as much of a maths nerd as I am.
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Oct 10, 2019 06:20
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The fact Gen 1 worked is a miracle in itself, and it has some fun stuff behind it. Gen 2 has very good surface level stuff, but is absolute tedious garbage below the surface and is the gen I look forward to replaying the least. But Gen 1 always has that funk about it. And again, if you wanna talk over the maths, it's all very interesting and you're free to crib directly from where I went over it in Yellow.
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Oct 10, 2019 07:02
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xelada posted:I'd be more than happy to try my hand at making the math in this thread more palatable for folks who aren't quite as much of a maths nerd as I am.
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Oct 10, 2019 09:49
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I'd be interested in hearing. I've always thought the math behind pokemon was needlessly complex for a children's RPG.
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Oct 10, 2019 15:14
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PMush Perfect posted:Can you do one for the catch rate and the Pokeball shakey shakes? First of all, if a Master Ball is used, it is a guaranteed catch, and in fact skips all the math. Each Pokemon has a Catch Rate, a whole number that ranges from 3 (for things like Legendaries) and 255 (for weak/early/common Pokemon like Caterpie, Magikarp and Rattata). This depends entirely on the Species, every Magikarp will have a Catch Rate of 255, every Clefairy will have a Catch Rate of 150, etc. When you throw a (non-Master) Pokeball, the first thing the game does is generate a random whole number: if it's a Pokeball 0-255, Great Ball 0-200, an Ultra (or Safari) Ball 0-150. If the target is Asleep or Frozen, and the generated number is less than 25; or is Poisoned, Burned, or Paralyzed and the generated number is less than 12; then the Pokemon is caught, no further questions asked. Otherwise the that number is added to Catch Rate. If the generated number number is higher than or equal to the Catch Rate then the Pokemon breaks out and you lose the ball. If it is less, then the game takes the Pokemon's Max HP, divides by its Current HP, then either divides the result by 2 if a Great Ball was used, or 3 if any other Ball was used. The result is a the chance to catch the Pokemon. (as a fraction, if you prefer it as a percentage then multiply it by 100). Formulaically the chance to pass the first part can be written as: ([Catch Rate] + [Status]) / [Ball] or ([3...255] + [0, 12, 25]) / [150, 200, 255]. The chance to pass the second part can be written as: ([Max Hp] / [Current HP]) / [2,3] or [Max Hp] / ( [Current HP] * [2,3] ) depending on how you prefered to layout. The number of shakes depends on an approximation of the chance of success, take the result of both the above formulae (ignoring [Status]), multiply them together, then convert to percentage, then add either 10 (if Asleep or Frozen) or 5 (if Poisoned, Burned, or Paralyzed); if the result is less than 10 then the Ball will miss, 10-40 one shake, 40-70 two shakes, and greater than 70 three shakes. Worth mentioning is that the two formulae are not capped at 100%, so you might get more shakes then you should. (a legendary with 1 HP and no Status Effects will shake two or three times despite only having a 2% chance to be caught, similarly, a full health Pidgey that breaks out of an Ultra Ball will shake thrice, despite only having a 33% chance to be caught) Hopefully this all makes sense, if there are any questions I'm more than happy to answer them, and if anyone would like examples or for me to cover future gens I'm more than happy to do so.
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Oct 10, 2019 23:53
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ItBreathes posted:I'd be interested in hearing. I've always thought the math behind pokemon was needlessly complex for a children's RPG. You're not really supposed to know, understand, or be aware of a lot of the math going on in the background. A lot of it is arbitrary stuff they made up, hence all the 255s(maximum for 8 bits). But pokemon blew up and grognards tore into it and now we know all these goofy rear end formulas some dude whipped together trying to make the general concept work and great. E: Take for instance the fact that they won't show you IVs in game and took forever to show evs in game. They were just intended to make every pokemon unique, but competitive internet people obsess over them for optimization reasons.
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Oct 11, 2019 00:08
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Don't Master Balls have the same 1/255 miss glitch as always-hit moves or am I misremembering?
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Oct 11, 2019 01:06
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I don't know for sure but apparently Swift (which always hits, but doesn't have 100% accuracy - it's just coded to always hit) ignores the 1/256, so the same could be for the Master Ball as well.
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Oct 11, 2019 01:13
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Like Clockwork posted:Don't Master Balls have the same 1/255 miss glitch as always-hit moves or am I misremembering? I'm not 100% sure, most sources say it skips the formulae and is guaranteed, in a vein similar to Swift and Pokemon affected by X Accuracy; on the other hand I have a vivid memory of my mom failing to catch a Snorlax with a Master Ball, but that was about 20 years ago (feel old yet?) so I don't put much stock in it.
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Oct 11, 2019 02:33
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Like Clockwork posted:Don't Master Balls have the same 1/255 miss glitch as always-hit moves or am I misremembering? That's a common rumor but that glitch doesn't apply to the Master Ball.
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Oct 11, 2019 02:35
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LiefKatano posted:I don't know for sure but apparently Swift (which always hits, but doesn't have 100% accuracy - it's just coded to always hit) ignores the 1/256, so the same could be for the Master Ball as well. Not in Gen 1, it still has that 1/256 chance to miss. Heartbeaking to see that happen to speedrunners.
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Oct 11, 2019 05:38
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quote:Ball shaking Or, you can do what the tool assisted speedrun does, which is: 1) Start game. 2) ??? 3) Suddenly All the Master Balls, because what is error checking? 4) Go out of bounds of the game map and mosey yourself on into the memory. 5) Chuck Master Balls into the relevant pieces of memory to catch 'em all, even the ones that don't spawn in Blue. 6) Set the flag for "You've beaten the game" from false to true. 7) Profit!
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Oct 11, 2019 10:26
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Route 6: It's Pay Day!   Well, it was getting pretty close in the end   On to Route 4! Our first prize... TM04, Whirlwind! ...which doesn't even make opponents' Pokemon switch in Generation 1, making it do literally nothing in trainer battles.    Only one new Pokemon for us in Route 4 Sandshrew   Viability: 3/5 I really want to like Sandslash. Good Attack and Defense, and 100% crit Slash, but a mediocre Speed and dependence on TMs for STAB hold it back from really standing out against Graveler, and someone else we'll be seeing soon. If only it evolved one level sooner, at 21 instead of 22, that would make it usable now, and give it at least some kind of niche. As-is, it's not bad, but it struggles to stand out amongst the competition. In Red version, though, we'd have a different Pokemon here. So, how's that one? Ekans   Viability: 2.5/5 Arbok is a Pokemon that feels like a near miss in a lot of ways. It has Wrap, not terrible speed, and its signature move, Glare, can paralyze Ground Pokemon. But at 75% accuracy, you're probably better off putting something to sleep, and it is extremely lacking in ways to deal any decent damage, its best option without TMs being Acid, a move that will deal the same amount of damage as Bite, after STAB. With an Attack of only 85, a Speed of 80, and lacking 60/69/65 defenses and a bad defensive typing, its only niche is as a mediocre annoyer that disintegrates as soon as that strategy falls apart. And, just like Sandslash, it evolves at 22. Poor thing.    Our one capture out of the way, we're now in Cerulean City, able to rest up, buy more Pokeballs (I'll need a lot), and have our first mandatory battle with Fasslp.    He crumples under the combined assault of five EV-trained shitwreckers, and Nugget Bridge soon follows.   On Route 6, we find TM45, Thunder Wave, a very useful move. I'll need to carefully consider whether to give it to someone now for the early boost, or save it for later, when I can use it on something truly excellent.  And speaking of excellent Pokemon... Bellsprout    Viability: 4.5/5 Victreebel is not the reason I chose Blue, but it is the reason that I would've felt safe picking something aside from Bulbasaur when I did so. It's an excellent Pokemon, learning Wrap, Vine Whip, Growth, and Sleep Powder all before evolving at level 21, and Razor Leaf only a few levels after Venusaur (as long as you keep it as a Weepinbell until then). 105/100 offenses and access to Swords Dance means that it can also threaten with powerful Normal moves. Victreebel's Achilles heels are its 65 defense, lacking defensive typing, and merely mediocre 70 Speed, but even that is easy enough to ignore when you consider everything else it has going for it. Like Sandshrew, Bellsprout has a counterpart in Red. So, how does that one hold up? Oddish    Viability: 2.5/5 Vileplume is to Victreebel as Pidgeot is to Fearow, a Pokemon similar in many respects, but lacking in just enough to really lose its luster. The only stat advantage is Defense, but its lower HP makes that marginal, at best, it's slower, and instead of the excellent Razor Leaf, it learns the risky Petal Dance, which might be an interesting trade-off in a game with sane critical hit rates. If I was playing Red, and thus using Charizard, I'd probably use it, if only for lack of better options. But, I'm not, so I'm not.  It took me a few tries, but I finall caught one of these guys as well. Let's take a look. Abra    Viability: 4.5/5 Generation 1 has a Thing for 'Pokemon that start as a pain in the rear end and train into something incredible'. One of the most infamous members of the not-at-all-busted Psychic-type, Kadabra learns Psychic, Recover, and Reflect all by level-up, allowing it to shore up its lacking Defense and keep on its feet. Unfortunately, without the boost from Alakazam, that Defense is really lacking, at a whopping 30, with 40 Hase HP to match. There are several Pokemon fast enough to take huge chunks out of it before it can even think of the word Reflect. Still, once it has that wall up, it's much hardier, and STAB Psychic coming off of a 120 Special and 105 Speed is hard to ignore. Honestly, though, the only thing keeping it out of a 5 is how boring it would be just sweeping the entire game with a Kadabra.    We beat up some trainers on our way to visit Bill, keep BORT from evolving for a few more levels (you'll see why soon), and pick up the TM for Seismic Toss, another excellent move that I'll need to carefully decide who to give it to.   We help Bill un-Goldblum himself, and get the TM for Dig from a Rocket with a Drowzee that I totally didn't lose half my team to.   This gives us access to Route 6, and thus the tunnel south if we get really desperate.  As well as something I've been looking forward to since I chose Blue. Meowth   Viability: 3.5/5 Persian has two gimmicks. First, it's the strongest, fastest user of Slash, allowing it a gimmick of having a powerful Normal attack that bypasses all defensive boosts. It isn't quite strong or tough enough to really make excellent use of it, but it's certainly there. The second gimmick is its signature move, Pay Day, learned at level 17, which gives you just a little bit of money every battle you use it in.   So, that's why this update is late. I'm kidding, I did that with 30 seconds of Shenanigans. Oh my God, could you imagine? There's still some (mostly) legitimate grinding to do, though.  Back to Route 25!    BORT learns Poisonpowder at 20 as a Bulbasaur, so he picks it up before evolving.    DOG and JABLES reach level 20 and evolve as well, and WEEST picks up Selfdestruct at 21.    And TUBE, with the help of TM12, fills out his move list.  We're all set, or at least our first potential team is. Let's head back on over to Stadium, and see what they can do. Next time on Multi-Track Battling: We're on the wrong side of Starmie. Complete Available Roster 5.0:   4.5: 4.0:  3.5:    3.0:    2.5:  2.0:   1.0:   
girl dick energy fucked around with this message at 23:33 on Oct 27, 2019 |
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Oct 16, 2019 02:59
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My favorite thing about red/blue as a kid was using the seismic toss tm to make leveling abra not a nightmare. To this day I'm still not quite sure why its allowed to learn that one.
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Oct 16, 2019 03:12
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PMush Perfect posted:Meowth Persian had a place of honor on my first team to beat RBY as a kid for these reasons. Not extraordinary, but a consistent performer who can also learn the oddest moves. I think I taught my kitty bubblebeam on the basis that it might come in handy?
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Oct 16, 2019 03:15
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FoolyCharged posted:My favorite thing about red/blue as a kid was using the seismic toss tm to make leveling abra not a nightmare. I was blown away as a kid when I realized you could use TMs on Abra. I had assumed it was like Magikarp, which, uh, can't. At all.
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Oct 16, 2019 03:33
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You're really limiting yourself with the whole no trades thing. Alakazam is basically a 5.5/5 in Gen 1, it's a shame you're limiting yourself there.
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Oct 16, 2019 04:11
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Blaze Dragon posted:You're really limiting yourself with the whole no trades thing. Alakazam is basically a 5.5/5 in Gen 1, it's a shame you're limiting yourself there. Well, let's face it, all four trade evolutions are phenomenally powerful. Well, okay, Gengar has issues in Gen 1 because Ghost-types didn't really come into their own until Shadow Ball, but Golem and Machamp are pretty great in their own rights, and I wouldn't rate any of them lower than a 4.
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Oct 16, 2019 04:18
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To this day if I happen to have a leftover slot on my team and nothing vital to put there I'll usually fill the gap with a Persian. They're nothing amazing but they're nice all-rounders and I've always liked their design. (We don't talk about the abomination that is Alolan Persian's face.)
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Oct 16, 2019 10:09
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Normal Type is probably the second strongest type in Gen 1 after Psychic Type. For some reason I've always loved Sandslash. I always have one on my team when I replay gen 1 even though there are much better ground types.
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Oct 16, 2019 10:26
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Was it this Gen that Wrap induced Gameboy-throwing rage (at which point it was embedded into the drywall, because that stuff be made of weapons grade Nintendium, yo) because if you were slower than the thing that Wrapped you, boy, you sat there and couldn't do jack poo poo?
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Oct 16, 2019 20:10
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dotchan posted:Was it this Gen that Wrap induced Gameboy-throwing rage (at which point it was embedded into the drywall, because that stuff be made of weapons grade Nintendium, yo) because if you were slower than the thing that Wrapped you, boy, you sat there and couldn't do jack poo poo? Yep! Wrap, Bind, and Fire Spin got a heavy nerf after Gen 1.
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Oct 16, 2019 20:39
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Black Robe posted:To this day if I happen to have a leftover slot on my team and nothing vital to put there I'll usually fill the gap with a Persian. They're nothing amazing but they're nice all-rounders and I've always liked their design. (We don't talk about the abomination that is Alolan Persian's face.) you mean the perfection that is alolan persian's face
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Oct 16, 2019 20:57
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Omnicrom posted:Yep! Wrap, Bind, and Fire Spin got a heavy nerf after Gen 1. They went from some of the best movies in the game to completely useless. Charizard still learns Fire Spin at like 33, and Flamethrower at 54. It sucks compared to Blastoise who can learn Surf, and Venusaur who learns Razor Leaf.
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Oct 16, 2019 23:09
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God I always forget Water Gun was a TM in this generation some real questionable and bizarre TM choices all over, honestly. Shout out to Softboiled, the TM that exists solely to teach to your Chansey of choice and Mew and absolutely no one else.
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Oct 17, 2019 02:30
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I think the prime "weird gen1 TM" award still goes to Bide. Who would willingly use that move?
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Oct 17, 2019 08:00
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aww Meowth is only 3.5?...I guess poor kitty never was relevent
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Oct 17, 2019 08:06
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Godna posted:aww Meowth is only 3.5?...I guess poor kitty never was relevent
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Oct 17, 2019 08:21
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I always figured best Slash user was valid...but given you're handling Stadium? there will be as you said better options
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Oct 17, 2019 09:28
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Persian is probably the best normal type below the big 3 (who are all top 5 Pokemon). It is considerably worse in Stadium, though, since it relies on Hyper Beam for getting the last hit. On the positive side, the only non-Game Corner TM it needs is Bubblebeam which isn't in very high demand.
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Oct 17, 2019 14:54
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You're right about Kadabra. Little 8 year old Rabbi Raccoon didn't know poo poo about types and still breezed through just about everything with Kadabra. And, because 8 year olds are morons, it had Confusion, Psybeam, and Psychic. C'mon kid, learn to diversify your movepool. The few things it couldn't OHKO knocked it right the hell out, though. Lookin' at you, Gyarados.
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Oct 17, 2019 17:56
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Eh, in gen 1 its other attacking options were dig, submission, and normal moves all of which use its mighty 35 base attack. About the only other thing to give it was the screens and recover. Which in all honesty didn't do much outside of stadium because single player was easy and pvp was decided by who had the dude with the biggest levels.
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Oct 17, 2019 19:00
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WrightOfWay posted:Persian is probably the best normal type below the big 3 (who are all top 5 Pokemon). Snorlax, Chansey and who else?
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Oct 17, 2019 19:48
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MR. J posted:Snorlax, Chansey and who else? Tauros, right?
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Oct 17, 2019 19:57
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wodenspoon posted:Tauros, right?
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Oct 17, 2019 20:09
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Rabbi Raccoon posted:You're right about Kadabra. Little 8 year old Rabbi Raccoon didn't know poo poo about types and still breezed through just about everything with Kadabra. And, because 8 year olds are morons, it had Confusion, Psybeam, and Psychic. C'mon kid, learn to diversify your movepool.
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Oct 17, 2019 22:05
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MR. J posted:I think the prime "weird gen1 TM" award still goes to Bide. Who would willingly use that move? Bide may be the worst move to be a TM but at least things can LEARN it (anything that can learn TMs, in fact). Softboiled is literally only learnable by Chansey (and Mew). Egg Bomb is only learnable by Chansey, Exeggcute, and Exeggutor (and Mew). None of those moves are learned by ANYTHING naturally in Gen 1. There are other moves that are weirdly TM-only in Gen 1, all of the gym leader TMs are that way I think (Bide, Bubblebeam, Thunderbolt, Mega Drain, Toxic, Psywave, Fire Blast, Fissure). The Golux fucked around with this message at 01:21 on Oct 18, 2019 |
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Oct 18, 2019 01:17
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The Golux posted:Bide may be the worst move to be a TM but at least things can LEARN it (anything that can learn TMs, in fact). Softboiled is literally only learnable by Chansey (and Mew). Egg Bomb is only learnable by Chansey, Exeggcute, and Exeggutor (and Mew). None of those moves are learned by ANYTHING naturally in Gen 1. That last bit is actually a pattern. I may be mistaken, but I'm pretty sure that Gym Leader TMs are never, or at least almost never, naturally learnable until at least the next generation.
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Oct 18, 2019 01:25
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