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I Before E posted:But it's also absolutely possible to get someone over with a losing streak, people came to adore Tomoaki Honma in 2014-15. Having people go through slumps and get frustrated can be a useful storytelling tool.
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Oct 10, 2019 14:45
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Someone needs to lose, and if the people losing are already not over, it’s gonna be really tough for them.
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Oct 10, 2019 14:48
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Jordan7hm posted:Someone needs to lose, and if the people losing are already not over, it’s gonna be really tough for them.
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Oct 10, 2019 14:52
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It also depends on if the Bucks want to stay over/be pushed versus slowly shifting into a position of high profile losers who focus on making the show run behind the scenes. The Bucks need to get some wins only if the end result is the Bucks as a credible top tier tag team, in which case they should be being booked like SCU, but if they want to be a popular act moving down the card because they are making new stars they can lose a bunch and be absolutely fine.
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Oct 10, 2019 15:06
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The fact that the lengthy discussion on pacific rim about the history of crowd riots at japenese wrestling events started with a question that included the phrase "im not sure japanese culture would allow that to occur" was 
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Oct 10, 2019 15:38
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I will also say that Private Party have massive star potential, and AEW really needs black stars. That’s like the one area (besides brand recognition) where WWE has a clear advantage over them. Which of course they utilized by immediately squashing their black world champion, so lol
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Oct 10, 2019 15:52
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Something that’s not being discussed re: Bucks going over - fans could easily turn on the product if they just see The Elite constantly booking themselves as the top guys. They are probably a little too sensitive to that, based on how much Kenny and The Bucks have lost so far. But, I don’t think it’s the worst idea to keep only one of the three acts at the top at a time between Cody, Kenny and the Bucks.
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Oct 10, 2019 16:09
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Also, it's entirely possible, if not outright likely, that they have much of the ROH audience watching, and they already saw the Bucks as stars for years.
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Oct 10, 2019 16:15
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Yeah the one question mark I had was how were the guys gonna book themselves and they've handled it great so far. They want to distance themselves as far as possible from the clique's rep.
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Oct 10, 2019 16:24
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i still think there's an argument to be made that private party winning a semifinal match over the bucks would've been more impactful rather than the very first tourney match, but i really don't have any issues with it, and i was surprised to see dave be so down on it. so far, to the "general public" they lost a six-man after going down a person, and they lost via rollup to private party. they haven't looked weak at all, and two weeks of strong/understandable losses isn't going to cool the live crowd off on them. t wouldn't be hard at all to get them on a hot streak.
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Oct 10, 2019 16:34
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They lost that six-man to The Judas Effect, the most dangerous move in professional wrestling, so it shouldn't really be held against them.
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Oct 10, 2019 16:40
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mkay0 posted:Something that’s not being discussed re: Bucks going over - fans could easily turn on the product if they just see The Elite constantly booking themselves as the top guys. They are probably a little too sensitive to that, based on how much Kenny and The Bucks have lost so far. But, I don’t think it’s the worst idea to keep only one of the three acts at the top at a time between Cody, Kenny and the Bucks. This is my reading as well. Right now it’s Cody turn for a try at the top. I think they’re going to build Omega with a feud between him, PAC, and Moxley. Bucks are gonna rail against Santino and Ortiz for a while.
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Oct 10, 2019 16:55
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If they ever introduce a trios title (and they have trios as a w/l category) they can also just build The Elite up for that.
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Oct 10, 2019 17:04
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It says a lot that we're debating for pages about wins and losses like... they actually matter. That in itself is a major victory over what we're used to.
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Oct 10, 2019 17:13
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I think Dave is just so conditioned to WWE at this point where if you're not in the title picture you're just a floundering loser. The tag tourney is a good way to get a team over. The Bucks are already over and will stay over, especially in a feud with LAX. Whoever wins these belts will need them more than the Bucks 100x over.
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Oct 10, 2019 18:11
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I think the occasional squash match wouldn't hurt. Adam Page going out, hitting his moves, and cutting a promo would help get him over to new viewers. Being placed in main event matches is good but you still need wins to get people behind you.
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Oct 10, 2019 18:32
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Adam Page should invade NWA Powerrr because I wanna see him fight Eddie Kingston with Homicide on commentary.
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Oct 10, 2019 18:34
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I'm loving dying at how badly Dave is telling that story about Roderick Strong's wife.
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Oct 10, 2019 20:08
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Man, listening to the podcast I feel like Dave is absolutely wrong about the Bucks. The hardcore fans would of turned really hard if the executives booked themselves to win a tournament and the television audience is going to think anyone you make look like a star is a star. Private Party absolutely looked like stars last night. And the Bucks looked amazing because they were dominant during the match and only lost because of a flash rollup.
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Oct 10, 2019 20:42
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Dave likes his kids.
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Oct 10, 2019 20:45
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sportsgenius86 posted:I think Dave is just so conditioned to WWE at this point where if you're not in the title picture you're just a floundering loser. The tag tourney is a good way to get a team over. The Bucks are already over and will stay over, especially in a feud with LAX. Whoever wins these belts will need them more than the Bucks 100x over. I’ve been thinking about it a bit and I think Dave is just pretty conservative around the booking. If you go back and listen to how he’d have booked the shows, it’s clear he wanted AEW to lean more on established talent and let teams / individuals like Private Party, Jungle Boy, Nyla and MJF spend more time on the undercard growing into their roles. He’s probably right in terms of what would lead to the best actual wrestling, but I don’t think he read the room in terms of the crowd reaction to these performers. Private Party’s celebration in the crowd was pretty fantastic. They’re awesome, and if that means there’s a couple rough spots or botches in the matches, so be it. The spots they hit are pretty drat cool (Quen especially), and on the whole they’re fun to watch.
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Oct 10, 2019 20:47
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A lot of the NXT call ups failed in part because WWE assumed the wider audience would be familiar enough with their stories that they didn't need retelling, I think Dave has a point with the argument that guys like the Bucks and Kenny shouldn't be assumed to be guaranteed stars with the now wider audience.
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Oct 10, 2019 20:49
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Incessant Excess posted:A lot of the NXT call ups failed in part because WWE assumed the wider audience would be familiar enough with their stories that they didn't need retelling, I think Dave has a point with the argument that guys like the Bucks and Kenny shouldn't be assumed to be guaranteed stars with the now wider audience. That's fair but they're also almost exclusively treated as jokes so it's hard to tell what the reason for their failures is.
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Oct 10, 2019 20:55
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That's probably fine? AEW audiences are clearly reacting to other guys as stars too, if the fear is that the Bucks and Kenny will forget how to be over, or won't get time to in the future, I think it's just wildly unfounded.
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Oct 10, 2019 20:56
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almost all of WWE's marquee stars have been made in spite of WWE's efforts. Rock SCSA Daniel Bryan Hell you can even include Miz and Cena in that list.
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Oct 10, 2019 20:57
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I also don't really understand why they need to be stars. They're some of the best wrestlers in the world but there is no reason they shouldn't use that talent to raise up their young guys and make sure those guys stay in AEW for life. They're investing in their future.
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Oct 10, 2019 20:58
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If they ever want to make the Bucks look like a big deal all they need to do is pay for some PWG footage and overshadow their win/loss graphic with a bigger graphic showing how many titles they've won. They're easily rehabilitated
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Oct 10, 2019 20:58
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Ziggy Tzardust posted:If they ever want to make the Bucks look like a big deal all they need to do is pay for some PWG footage and overshadow their win/loss graphic with a bigger graphic showing how many titles they've won. They're easily rehabilitated The people who the Bucks aren't perceived as stars by would need an explanation of what PWG even is, as well as their history in other promotions. You can do that, sure, or you could take the more direct route of just portraying them as stars on their own TV show.
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Oct 10, 2019 21:08
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We're two weeks into tv. Bucks got outnumbered last week and looked strong against Private Party. They'll be fine.forkboy84 posted:Generation Me. That is so loving Russo.
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Oct 10, 2019 21:20
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I think it can be tough to thread the needle of not having one overshadow the other but having two marquee tag matches at Full Gear like: Young Bucks vs. Ortiz & Santana Newly Crowned Champions vs. Challenger Hypothetically gives you four teams to spotlight/shine up as opposed to just two Same with something like Omega vs. Moxley, it's not like there needs to be a title (or honestly even "title match implications") at play to make it a big match. I think Dave/wrestling fans in general have sort of forgotten that a happy medium exists between Terrible VinceBrain Booking and NJPW Gedo booking, there are long stretches of successful and good wrestling shows outside of modern WWE where you can have matches/feuds that are As Big As The Title/Main Event Worthy that aren't solely for the title without careening out into "world title booked fifth from the top, John Cena vs. Evil Authority Figure in Main Event" bullshit.
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Oct 10, 2019 21:21
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i've been listening to the Cornette shows about AEW and NXT and he is just monumentally, irredeemably stupid. he used to make reasonable points even if I disagreed with him, but he's just making poo poo up and saying things that don't make any sense. like bitching about Excalibur saying "the business" and saying that he's "talking smart" when arn and flair would refer to it as the wrestling business in like every promo after accusing riho of sleeping her way to the top and making claims that could be disproven with literally ten seconds on a search engine, he's fully turned the corner into Vince Russo
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Oct 10, 2019 21:48
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Low Desert Punk posted:i've been listening to the Cornette shows about AEW and NXT and he is just monumentally, irredeemably stupid. he used to make reasonable points even if I disagreed with him, but he's just making poo poo up and saying things that don't make any sense. like bitching about Excalibur saying "the business" and saying that he's "talking smart" when arn and flair would refer to it as the wrestling business in like every promo lol corny still pissy that the bucks and Kenny wouldn't work an angle with him
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Oct 10, 2019 22:04
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I will never stop laughing that the Bucks called Cornette out for trying to act like their friend in person, that he thought they were all just working an angle on twitter.
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Oct 10, 2019 22:08
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Edge & Christian posted:I think it can be tough to thread the needle of not having one overshadow the other but having two marquee tag matches at Full Gear like: I guess it depends on if you think the audience is treating this as a completely brand new thing or the audience is understanding this is an evolution from all the various places all the people have been over the years.
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Oct 10, 2019 22:55
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coconono posted:almost all of WWE's marquee stars have been made in spite of WWE's efforts. Austin and Rock were in no way in spite of their efforts. Rock flopped in one role and was turned and given a role he excelled in. Austin was pushed and promoted as he caught fire.
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Oct 10, 2019 22:56
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Maybe this is naive but I feel like the fact that the Bucks legitimately are the best tag team in the world means they're not required to be booked as such.
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Oct 10, 2019 23:43
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Incessant Excess posted:The people who the Bucks aren't perceived as stars by the people who don't see the Bucks as stars
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Oct 11, 2019 00:38
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jesus WEP posted:yeah but it’s harder than getting someone over with a winning streak. loving ryback got over by winning a lot dude.
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Oct 11, 2019 01:08
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MassRafTer posted:Austin and Rock were in no way in spite of their efforts. Rock flopped in one role and was turned and given a role he excelled in. Austin was pushed and promoted as he caught fire. but what about all the times HHH politicked and whatnot? I remember hearing stories about HHH being upset that content in a promo hit too low or whatever.
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Oct 11, 2019 01:12
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I feel like there absolutely is a point in pushing the Bucks and Kenny as top of the world talent while they still are. A stronger Kenny and a stronger Bucks can do what they are doing now a half year to a year down the road far more effectively if they are built right. AEW is not just about being a place for Indy fans and NJPW fans, they need to bring in as many people as possible and I think its a good idea to focus on their best guys early. Call me out in a decade if Kenny is still hogging the main event as a broken down shell of himself.
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Oct 11, 2019 01:15
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