Early FPS Megathread: the kids need to learn about TekWar sooner or later

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Video Games > Retro Games > Early FPS Megathread: the kids need to learn about TekWar sooner or later

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chaosapiant: Oct 10, 2012; White Line Fever

Al Cu Ad Solte posted:

I gotta try Dark Forces again. I could never gel with it for some reason. Something about the level design. I always get lost in the sewers and stop playing. The presentation is amazing though, and I do absolutely love me some Jedi Knight.

Dark Forces is awesome and absolutely deserves/needs to get the Nightdive treatment.

# ? Oct 10, 2019 20:30

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# ? May 28, 2024 19:46

Zaphod42: Sep 13, 2012; If there's anything more important than my ego around, I want it caught and shot now.

skasion posted:

For me the big things that set DF apart from Doom are:
-attempting to adapt a movie universe to FPS format

Doom cribs big time from like Evil Dead and other action horror, pretty sure the devs straight up said it has a chainsaw and shotgun because of movies, so IDK on that one :cheeky:

# ? Oct 10, 2019 20:32

The Kins: Oct 2, 2004

haveblue posted:

It was also possibly the last (maybe even only, ever) multiplatform game that was better on Mac than PC; it would only render 480p on Power Macs.

A lot of effort was put into doing this right!

Byte Digest posted:

Translating the Jedi engine for the Mac presented several challenges. One of the more difficult was a self-imposed limit. The PC version of Dark Forces requires 8 MB of RAM, and LucasArts wanted the Mac version to have the same requirement. The challenge is that on an 8-MB PC running DOS, an extended-memory application such as Dark Forces has about 7.5 MB to play with. But because the Mac OS has to run a GUI, much less memory is available, depending on what extensions are installed. After examining some Mac setups, the team decided that an 8-MB Mac could reasonably be expected to have 4.5 MB free, so that was their target.

Aaron Giles, the lone Mac developer on the Dark Forces team, says that the temptation for Mac programmers is to "load everything into memory." But that would not work here. Therefore, one of his main programming challenges was to efficiently manage swapping components of the game in and out of memory.

Because LucasArts had invested much more effort in the game content than in the game engine, the goal was to bring that content essentially unchanged from the PC. That forced the game to take another memory hit, because the team had to add a MIDI module to the Mac version that could support the same instruments and mixing capabilities as the PC -- eating up about 400 KB of the ever-shrinking memory. To keep this memory hit to a minimum, the game loads only the instruments it needs at any particular point in the game.

To satisfy the demanding Mac crowd, the developers implemented Dark Forces in 640- by 480-pixel graphics rather than the PC version's 320 by 200 pixels. In essence, the Power Mac is being asked to move five times as much data through the microprocessor and still play as smoothly as a Pentium. And it can do this.

You might recognise Aaron Giles from the MAME project, which he was leader of for a time.

# ? Oct 10, 2019 20:34

chaosapiant: Oct 10, 2012; White Line Fever

So how did they squeeze DF onto a system with less memory and a higher resolution?

# ? Oct 10, 2019 20:37

An Actual Princess: Dec 23, 2006

is it just me or is heretic harder than doom? i'm playing through on black plague, pistol (er, wand) start, and i'm having a much rougher time than the equivalent settings in doom's stock maps

# ? Oct 10, 2019 20:55

skasion: Feb 13, 2012; Why don't you perform zazen, facing a wall?

^^^do you usually play Doom on Nightmare? Black Plague is the same kind of bullshit hard, Smitemeister is much more reasonable

Al Cu Ad Solte posted:

I gotta try Dark Forces again. I could never gel with it for some reason. Something about the level design. I always get lost in the sewers and stop playing. The presentation is amazing though, and I do absolutely love me some Jedi Knight.

The sewer is the most confusing level I�d say. The key thing to remember is that it�s a hub-and-spoke thing. The hub is the room with the four doors controlled by the four-way switch: you have to hit the switch and go through the door it opens, then follow the path until you circle back around to the four-way switch again, rinse repeat. One of the four doors is optional, one is the route to the end, and the other two have switches that are both required to raise the level of the slime so that you can actually use the route to the end.

A puzzle so good they decided to reuse it for Outlaws!

# ? Oct 10, 2019 20:55

chaosapiant: Oct 10, 2012; White Line Fever

Now I want to play through the Dark Forces games. I played Dark Forces when it was new and I was a young lad. However, I've never played any of its sequels, though I own them all through GOG. They still hold up?

# ? Oct 10, 2019 20:56

verbal enema: May 23, 2009; onlymarfans.com

Idk where to post this but i had a dream last night that I was being chased around 420 Ganja Farm from kf1 by Scott "The Clam Man" Clam who was a final boss

The only weapon i had was an umbrella and i didn't even use it the smart way

# ? Oct 10, 2019 21:04

catlord: Mar 22, 2009; What's on your mind, Axa?

verbal enema posted:

Idk where to post this but i had a dream last night that I was being chased around 420 Ganja Farm from kf1 by Scott "The Clam Man" Clam who was a final boss

The only weapon i had was an umbrella and i didn't even use it the smart way

So a mix of Killing Floor, They Hunger, and Youtube poop? What is the smart way to use an umbrella in this situation, and how did you use it?

# ? Oct 10, 2019 21:12

skasion: Feb 13, 2012; Why don't you perform zazen, facing a wall?

chaosapiant posted:

Now I want to play through the Dark Forces games. I played Dark Forces when it was new and I was a young lad. However, I've never played any of its sequels, though I own them all through GOG. They still hold up?

Yes, but all are pretty different from DF.

Jedi Knight is a totally unique game and one of my favorites. It�s ugly as hell but feels great � the focus is on racing at lightning speed about huge amounts of 3D space, shooting and wildly waving your ~~nerf bat~~ lightsaber as you go. Then you jump into the ceiling so hard you die. For its era it has great boss fights and surprisingly good character building (though you better be finding every secret if you want to take advantage of it) and also oneups DF�s pixel art with hilarious FMV cutscenes. It�s a pity this game�s engine never caught on, because it feels great to play.

Mysteries of the Sith is a very dickish super hard mission pack for everyone who got pro skills at JK, it�s equal parts fun and torture.

Jedi Outcast is a much prettier and more polished game that doesn�t give the player the same sort of freedom, but is still quite fun. They devoted a lot of time to making the lightsaber combat cool-looking as well as fun in this game, so its FPS-likeness drops off pretty dramatically towards the end as it expects you to be carving everyone up.

Jedi Academy completes the transition to character action game, it�s basically sick moves with lightsabers and also you can carry guns around if you wanted to do that I guess. The moves are extremely sick though.

# ? Oct 10, 2019 21:12

manero: Jan 30, 2006

Waiting for moddb to approve :siren:

https://www.moddb.com/mods/e1-portalswad/

Edit: APPROVED

manero fucked around with this message at 21:26 on Oct 10, 2019

# ? Oct 10, 2019 21:14

verbal enema: May 23, 2009; onlymarfans.com

catlord posted:

So a mix of Killing Floor, They Hunger, and Youtube poop? What is the smart way to use an umbrella in this situation, and how did you use it?

Like a bat as opposed to hitting them the metal handle like in hunted

# ? Oct 10, 2019 21:20

Shoehead: Sep 28, 2005; Wassup, Choom?
Ya need sumthin'?

Zaphod42 posted:

Doom cribs big time from like Evil Dead and other action horror, pretty sure the devs straight up said it has a chainsaw and shotgun because of movies, so IDK on that one

Yeah Doom owes a lot to Aliens as well, the UAC are basically Weyland Yutani. Also Doomguy's origin (reprimanded for assaulting an officer who ordered him to fire on civilains) is straight from The Running Man.

# ? Oct 10, 2019 21:56

Heavy Metal: Sep 1, 2014; America's $1 Funnyman

Mordja posted:

I'm really thinking I should give Duke Nukem another shot

Hell yeah, sounds like a good idea.

Mordja posted:

Are there any specific versions of Duke that fix that weird, Build engine camera tilt when you're on a slope? I know Blood:FS added an option to remove that (which I turned on posthaste) and AMC is planning to as well, but it's a real big sticking point for me.

For sure. Like gzDoom, you have hardware renderer options as well as the ol' software mode, which faked looking up and down with that stretching method etc. Looking around is much better now.

In eDuke32 polymost is the best mode, that's also what AMC added support for in their latest release.

# ? Oct 10, 2019 21:57

Cocoa Crispies: Jul 20, 2001; Vehicular Manslaughter!; Pillbug

manero posted:

I also think I managed to find an elegant way to allow the player to exit E1M9. The exit room is a problem for trying to fit in a portal, and so the question is: Should E1M9 exit to E1M4 as normal, or should it go back to E1M3? I've got it solved for now but maybe I'll hold off until I upload it somewhere for y'all to test.

Are you okay with silent teleporters or gzdoom features? You could wire up the entrance to E1M4 such that the exits of both 3 and 9 go there, going backwards just sends you back to 3, and from there players can work their way into 9 if they left their wallet there or something g.

# ? Oct 10, 2019 22:00

manero: Jan 30, 2006

Cocoa Crispies posted:

Are you okay with silent teleporters or gzdoom features? You could wire up the entrance to E1M4 such that the exits of both 3 and 9 go there, going backwards just sends you back to 3, and from there players can work their way into 9 if they left their wallet there or something g.

Yeah, I mean, I'm already using GZDoom's Line_SetPortal linedef, so I could just set up a portal exit to E1M4.

But I think I managed to come up with a reasonable way to make it work. Download the wad and scope it out!!

https://www.moddb.com/mods/e1-portalswad/downloads/e1-portals-01

# ? Oct 10, 2019 22:03

Instruction Manuel: May 15, 2007; Yes, it is what it looks like!

Al Cu Ad Solte posted:

I gotta try Dark Forces again. I could never gel with it for some reason. Something about the level design. I always get lost in the sewers and stop playing. The presentation is amazing though, and I do absolutely love me some Jedi Knight.

ban all sewer levels, imo

There needs to be a "Time to Sewer Level" rating like there was a "Time to Crate"

# ? Oct 10, 2019 22:22

Zaphod42: Sep 13, 2012; If there's anything more important than my ego around, I want it caught and shot now.

chaosapiant posted:

Now I want to play through the Dark Forces games. I played Dark Forces when it was new and I was a young lad. However, I've never played any of its sequels, though I own them all through GOG. They still hold up?

Jedi Outcast holds up the best of the series and is amazing. Jedi Knight is extremely janky and has live-action cutscenes. Academy is just kinda bland.

# ? Oct 10, 2019 22:33

Rupert Buttermilk: Apr 15, 2007; 🚣RowboatMan: ❄️Freezing time🕰️ is an old P.I. 🥧trick...

Wamdoodle posted:

ban all sewer levels, imo

There needs to be a "Time to Sewer Level" rating like there was a "Time to Crate"

I'm still floored that OMM was what gave the original Serious Sam its much-needed media bump.

# ? Oct 10, 2019 23:01

catlord: Mar 22, 2009; What's on your mind, Axa?

Why are sewer levels so prevalent, even still? You'd think after years of everyone bitching about them that devs would think that maybe people don't like them, but they keep showing up.

# ? Oct 10, 2019 23:02

Cocoa Crispies: Jul 20, 2001; Vehicular Manslaughter!; Pillbug

manero posted:

Yeah, I mean, I'm already using GZDoom's Line_SetPortal linedef, so I could just set up a portal exit to E1M4.

But I think I managed to come up with a reasonable way to make it work. Download the wad and scope it out!!

https://www.moddb.com/mods/e1-portalswad/downloads/e1-portals-01

Neat, but confusing. I had literally no idea where to go after flicking the switch, and when I did figure it out, it dumped me out in E1M3 until i started exploring.

If instead of the switch it was just a portal to the E1M4 entrance (with maybe a portal to a chunk of connective tissue since you have a conflict with the imp hole behind the E1M9 exit switch), it'd probably be less confusing.

Also, is there a way to change the music when crossing certain linedefs?

# ? Oct 10, 2019 23:03

al-azad: May 28, 2009

I imagine sewers are easy to design. It�s like the closest you get to a classic Wolf3D level. Just a simple way to pad content.

# ? Oct 10, 2019 23:05

manero: Jan 30, 2006

Cocoa Crispies posted:

Neat, but confusing. I had literally no idea where to go after flicking the switch, and when I did figure it out, it dumped me out in E1M3 until i started exploring.

If instead of the switch it was just a portal to the E1M4 entrance (with maybe a portal to a chunk of connective tissue since you have a conflict with the imp hole behind the E1M9 exit switch), it'd probably be less confusing.

Also, is there a way to change the music when crossing certain linedefs?

Hmm, yeah, it was definitely not obvious. I even thought about scripting a message saying "the way back has opened" or something. I'll keep thinking on it!

I had a similar idea about changing the music when you crossed over, that would be neat addition if it's possible!

# ? Oct 10, 2019 23:07

Tiny Timbs: Sep 6, 2008

catlord posted:

Why are sewer levels so prevalent, even still? You'd think after years of everyone bitching about them that devs would think that maybe people don't like them, but they keep showing up.

I doubt the devs like making them. They�re just cheap filler.

# ? Oct 10, 2019 23:09

Casimir Radon: Aug 2, 2008

DF's Anoat mission is a loving pain, even when you've done it several times before.

# ? Oct 10, 2019 23:10

Cocoa Crispies: Jul 20, 2001; Vehicular Manslaughter!; Pillbug

manero posted:

Hmm, yeah, it was definitely not obvious. I even thought about scripting a message saying "the way back has opened" or something. I'll keep thinking on it!

I don't see any issue with having both the E1M3 normal and E1M9 exits zdoom portal to the same place; you're in the secret level to a fringe Doom wad that jams all the E1 missions into a single level. I think a secret in Golden Souls 2 does the same thing.

# ? Oct 10, 2019 23:22

catlord: Mar 22, 2009; What's on your mind, Axa?

Fallom posted:

I doubt the devs like making them. They�re just cheap filler.

Right, but surely there are other settings that work as cheap filler too? How about cubicle farms? I feel like those could work fine for a couple years. Subways are reasonably close to sewers anyway, but they have a notable aesthetic that's distinct as well.

# ? Oct 10, 2019 23:38

Instruction Manuel: May 15, 2007; Yes, it is what it looks like!

Ok hear me out, a game that's nothing but sewer levels BUT the developers traveled the world and detailed the sewers of different cities and added thoughtful enemy placement and secrets/collectables

# ? Oct 10, 2019 23:47

Weird Sandwich: Dec 28, 2011; FIRE FIRE FIRE hehehehe!

catlord posted:

Right, but surely there are other settings that work as cheap filler too? How about cubicle farms? I feel like those could work fine for a couple years. Subways are reasonably close to sewers anyway, but they have a notable aesthetic that's distinct as well.

Sewers are not only easy to design as filler, but its also very easy to justify their existence in most settings. Any location where people are settled, the dev can put a sewer and people will accept it as plausible.
And it's also easy to put entries/exits wherever to connect to other levels.

# ? Oct 10, 2019 23:58

al-azad: May 28, 2009

Metro is largely sewers and subways that aren�t really distinct from sewers but it�s visually interesting. Make your sewers visually distinct dammit!

# ? Oct 11, 2019 00:25

Shadow Hog: Feb 23, 2014; Avatar by Jon Davies

manero posted:

I had a similar idea about changing the music when you crossed over, that would be neat addition if it's possible!

Extremely possible. Just have a repeatable linedef that calls an ACS script that calls LocalSetMusic(str song). You obviously had to convert the map format to use Line_SetPortal, so this should be readily doable.

Also, bug report: the Soulsphere secret behind the red door in E1M6 is kinda bugged. You can still get it, but the lift that's supposed to lower to the slime's level and take you up to it... instead lowers way, WAY down into the void, where it turns out the Soulsphere has been relocated to. Obvious fix is to adjust the Soulsphere sector's height, it's clearly wrong.

Similarly I noticed the lift in the secret exit of E1M3 that heralded the location of the Imp sniping you (and a box of rockets) wasn't marked with SUPPORT2 as it was in the original, instead just being some STARTAN variant. I almost thought the wall had been removed outright, until I tried pressing it and still got a lift lowering. Maybe consider retexturing that.

Other observation is that switch-based doors kind of mean triggering enemies early, so traps don't play out quite the same, but short of you introducing up to 18 more keys (I'd say 24, but E1M1 and E1M8 have none, so you can ignore that; "up to" to gloss over how some maps don't use all three keys, as with E1M2 which only uses the red key), I guess that's unavoidable, short of ACS scripting to detect which map a player is in and showing what "keys" they have, and then making the doors "unlocked" (as opposed to outright "opened") when the "key" switch is activated. (Which would absolutely be doable, it'd just be a bit of effort.)

Shadow Hog fucked around with this message at 01:06 on Oct 11, 2019

# ? Oct 11, 2019 00:59

ZogrimAteMyHamster: Dec 8, 2015

manero posted:

Waiting for moddb to approve

https://www.moddb.com/mods/e1-portalswad/

Edit: APPROVED

Pretty neat! I only rushed through it quickly to check if it was playable from end-to-end so I can't say I was out bug-hunting. A bit of work on the transitions & changing the music between areas though and this could be a good laugh in co-op.

Cocoa Crispies posted:

Also, is there a way to change the music when crossing certain linedefs?

Yep, linetype 80 (ACS Execute). Set it to whatever script after crossing it and set said script accordingly.
Example script:

code:

#include "Zcommon.acs"
script 1 (void)
{
LocalSetMusic ("D_MUSIC"); //LocalSetMusic used because of my fondness for drunk multiplayer games and how having the music change for everyone when we're all over the place would be dumb. "SetMusic" is fine for SP projects.
}

You can set several of these around (duh), and also have the music switch back if you decide to return to previous areas.

Overwatch Porn posted:

is it just me or is heretic harder than doom? i'm playing through on black plague, pistol (er, wand) start, and i'm having a much rougher time than the equivalent settings in doom's stock maps

Sort of. Heretic's weapons are somewhat piddly-feeling compared to Doom's, and the lower-class fodder-tier monsters (i.e. Gargoyles, Mummies/Golems) are much more effective meatshields than Doom's crappy zombies, while often being just as numerous. They don't drop much ammo either.

Playing consecutively however let's you build up a stupidly powerful stash of ammo after a few levels, and the higher-tier monsters of Heretic just don't compare to Doom's bestiary.

ZogrimAteMyHamster fucked around with this message at 01:10 on Oct 11, 2019

# ? Oct 11, 2019 01:07

Al Cu Ad Solte: Nov 30, 2005; Searching for
a righteous cause

Half-Life technically has an entire chapter that's a sewer level, Residue Processing, but it's actually fun to play because it's this obstacle gauntlet that's like playing Mario 64 in Hell.

# ? Oct 11, 2019 03:20

fishmech: Jul 16, 2006; by VideoGames; Salad Prong

Depending on what you do in previous levels, your path can mean you barely touch the sewers in SiN at all.

# ? Oct 11, 2019 03:45

manero: Jan 30, 2006

Shadow Hog posted:

Extremely possible. Just have a repeatable linedef that calls an ACS script that calls LocalSetMusic(str song). You obviously had to convert the map format to use Line_SetPortal, so this should be readily doable.

Also, bug report: the Soulsphere secret behind the red door in E1M6 is kinda bugged. You can still get it, but the lift that's supposed to lower to the slime's level and take you up to it... instead lowers way, WAY down into the void, where it turns out the Soulsphere has been relocated to. Obvious fix is to adjust the Soulsphere sector's height, it's clearly wrong.

Similarly I noticed the lift in the secret exit of E1M3 that heralded the location of the Imp sniping you (and a box of rockets) wasn't marked with SUPPORT2 as it was in the original, instead just being some STARTAN variant. I almost thought the wall had been removed outright, until I tried pressing it and still got a lift lowering. Maybe consider retexturing that.

Other observation is that switch-based doors kind of mean triggering enemies early, so traps don't play out quite the same, but short of you introducing up to 18 more keys (I'd say 24, but E1M1 and E1M8 have none, so you can ignore that; "up to" to gloss over how some maps don't use all three keys, as with E1M2 which only uses the red key), I guess that's unavoidable, short of ACS scripting to detect which map a player is in and showing what "keys" they have, and then making the doors "unlocked" (as opposed to outright "opened") when the "key" switch is activated. (Which would absolutely be doable, it'd just be a bit of effort.)

Thanks for these bug reports! I'll add them to the list to work on.

ZogrimAteMyHamster posted:

Music changing stuff for level transitions

This looks pretty doable, and I had this idea, so I'll probably add this to the next version as well.

# ? Oct 11, 2019 03:59

al-azad: May 28, 2009

fishmech posted:

Depending on what you do in previous levels, your path can mean you barely touch the sewers in SiN at all.

Every game should have an optional sewer for when you play poorly.

# ? Oct 11, 2019 04:20

Instruction Manuel: May 15, 2007; Yes, it is what it looks like!

al-azad posted:

Every game should have an optional sewer for when you play poorly.

ah drat it's like the resurrection mechanic from Prey 2006

# ? Oct 11, 2019 04:59

GUI: Nov 5, 2005

Playing Dusk and Ion Fury back to back and being bored to tears by both is making me wonder if I still like the genre. They both have some great level design but the actual combat is really dull. The strangeness of Dusk carried me until the end but Ion Fury has been mostly man with gun/crossbow, headcrab and small flying drone so far and I don't think I'll be finishing it any time soon.

# ? Oct 11, 2019 06:22

Zaphod42: Sep 13, 2012; If there's anything more important than my ego around, I want it caught and shot now.

GUI posted:

Playing Dusk and Ion Fury back to back and being bored to tears by both is making me wonder if I still like the genre. They both have some great level design but the actual combat is really dull. The strangeness of Dusk carried me until the end but Ion Fury has been mostly man with gun/crossbow, headcrab and small flying drone so far and I don't think I'll be finishing it any time soon.

Yeaaaah, the level design in Ion Fury is great but man the enemy variety is too lacking. The "over here!" is cool for like the first level, and then by halfway through the game you're like "seriously, still these same enemies?"

The robots and centipedes are just tough, not really interesting to fight against.

Its nothing like running into a couple hell knights surrounded by imps and cacos, then seeing an arch-vile around the corner. Doom's bestiary is just... the best.

# ? Oct 11, 2019 06:30

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# ? May 28, 2024 19:46

Barudak: May 7, 2007

Join us in the Doom WAD Club. Its all new maps for the finest weapon and monster combination the genre has ever had

# ? Oct 11, 2019 06:32

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Video Games > Retro Games > Early FPS Megathread: the kids need to learn about TekWar sooner or later

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