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That's great. Our teacher was very buttoned down so we never got to do anything completely nuts. Closest anyone got was a scenario where you play the board of a company voting on biz issues. One group went totally off script and fired their CEO. I think the guy did a bad job prepping so they decided he was incompetent. It was actually honored in the scoring, CEO got a big fat 0, which was less than his scripted batna lol. I had one where i made up an nda and got my partner to sign so i could tell him something we weren't supposed to reveal. It was more of a joke than a real tactic but in the debrief he actually mentioned i told him! So, i jumped up waving my NDA, demanding my damages. The class loved it but the prof refused to award value bc it was too far outside case parameters.
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Oct 10, 2019 18:17
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Very cool. I assume the Nash equilibrium rarely gets met in these scenarios right? And also your BATNA is hidden to the other party? Is there some kind of set up for what you're negotiating about or is it completely abstracted into numbers?
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Oct 10, 2019 18:20
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Your BATNA drat well better be hidden to the other party. 80% of negotiating is persuading the other party that your BATNA is stronger than it actually is.
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Oct 10, 2019 18:22
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Well I mean in the example they gave the no deal was worth 100 points, way below any of the other options. So you can basically assume any deal is better than no deal.
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Oct 10, 2019 18:29
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bamhand posted:Very cool. I assume the Nash equilibrium rarely gets met in these scenarios, right? And also, your BATNA is hidden to the other party? Is there some set up for what you're negotiating about, or is it completely abstracted into numbers? Always a setup/case. Like you're doing a play or maybe improv. Once we reached the back half of the class, you had to build your values. So if you didn't prep right, it was pretty much impossible to evaluate a deal. We covered some game theory stuff, including nash equilibrium, but, tbh, I've forgotten it, so can't say. Batna hidden *usually*. I was irritated by one case due to this issue. It was a mock job negotiation, and the company side role HAD the applicant's existing salary. So they knew the batna. The story was that your character had provided it previously. As a loyal reader of this thread, i bitched quite a bit about that, but part of the lesson was information asymmetry. I also raised my eyebrow on how the only time information was that skewed was when a job applicant was set up to fail — maybe reading too much into it... Edit: a deal was always better than no-deal, but it wasn't always the same level of bad. A side batna = 100 B side batna = 300 So "A" is going to be willing to take a worse deal for themselves than "B," giving B more leverage. However, both parties would probably be able to earn like 900 points through some agreement, because it's a lame exercise if one side is overwhelmingly strong and can lean too hard on their batna. Xguard86 fucked around with this message at 18:48 on Oct 10, 2019 |
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Oct 10, 2019 18:42
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Yashichi posted:I got a verbal offer today for a position several states away. The recruiter didn't have all the details, but they told me that they'll put me in touch with someone else who will send me a formal offer letter after I accept the position. The recruiter was taken aback that I asked for a couple days to make a decision, despite the fact that it involves a 500 mile move. Update: They insisted that I accept within 24 hours, and refused to give me a written offer until then. I "accepted", still no written offer or details, but they've already informed the team I'll be on and set a start date. I will back out in a heartbeat if I get another offer before I start, I can't stand the idea of being jerked around like this long term.
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Oct 10, 2019 18:53
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Yashichi posted:Update: They insisted that I accept within 24 hours, and refused to give me a written offer until then. I "accepted", still no written offer or details, but they've already informed the team I'll be on and set a start date. I will back out in a heartbeat if I get another offer before I start, I can't stand the idea of being jerked around like this long term. Please strongly consider backing out. They're treating you like garbage before you even start, and you have no idea what the details for benefits are. To emphasize, this should be the company on their best behavior, and this is what they're showing you. You're being pressured and then they're delaying giving you critical information. Inept fucked around with this message at 18:59 on Oct 10, 2019 |
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Oct 10, 2019 18:57
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I don't think there's much downside to "accepting" and seeing what they say, unless their siren song is strong enough to compel you to work there under suboptimal conditions. Either they give you a good offer and maybe you have a good new job, or they don't but serve as an avenue for negotiating practice. Do not feel compelled to actually work there because you "accepted", they will fire you the very second it is profitable to do so, give them the same treatment regardless of what you've agreed to. There's no room for loyalty to any company, even one that seems like they've been loyal to you, and this one hasn't even paid you anything yet.
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Oct 10, 2019 19:37
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Jeffrey of YOSPOS posted:I don't think there's much downside to "accepting" and seeing what they say, unless their siren song is strong enough to compel you to work there under suboptimal conditions. Either they give you a good offer and maybe you have a good new job, or they don't but serve as an avenue for negotiating practice. Do not feel compelled to actually work there because you "accepted", they will fire you the very second it is profitable to do so, give them the same treatment regardless of what you've agreed to. There's no room for loyalty to any company, even one that seems like they've been loyal to you, and this one hasn't even paid you anything yet. I'll split the difference between Inept and Jeffrey: See what they say and evaluate it critically, and, consider their antics so far a HUGE red flag. MAYBE their hiring is just totally hosed up and they're an awesome place to work. MAYBE they're a den of dysfunctional sociopaths who drive each other to further and further extremes of unacceptable behavior. If you're gonna embrace the risk of the latter case, you should be getting a really awesome offer that's hard to say no to. If it's anything other than knock your socks off awesome, I'd nope out on them and tell them their dysfunctional offer mechanism is their problem, not you when they complain "BUT YOU ACCEPTED"
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Oct 10, 2019 19:56
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Their offer is gonna suck because of course it does because why the hell else would they do this bush league poo poo?
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Oct 10, 2019 20:00
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I mean... the chances of the offer being good are basically zero. How are they going to expect someone to accept an "offer" without spelling out the terms?
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Oct 10, 2019 20:03
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Dwight Eisenhower posted:I'll split the difference between Inept and Jeffrey:
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Oct 10, 2019 20:06
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Ghostnuke posted:I mean... the chances of the offer being good are basically zero. How are they going to expect someone to accept an "offer" without spelling out the terms?
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Oct 10, 2019 20:07
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Yeah I was mainly pushing to back out because Yashichi couched it in terms of backing out if they got another offer before they start. To me, that sounds like otherwise they're going to go through with it. That's something that you should consider carefully if it involves a long distance move.
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Oct 10, 2019 21:05
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Thanks for the responses, I went to grad school and hosed up my brain so I had no idea how to handle the situation. I interviewed with the team and they're good people doing interesting work, but everyone is employed through lovely contract agencies like the one I'm dealing with. The base pay is good, but I'm anticipating terrible benefits, along with having these cryptic assholes in charge of my compensation and a management structure that could dissolve the entire department in five seconds. I'm moving forward with them to try to get the full picture. I'm not sure I'll be able to negotiate any changes since I'm only in contact with the contract agency, and I'm sure they'll claim I'm already locked in by my initial acceptance. I contacted another recent interview at a more stable organization, and they're going to try to make an offer in the next few days. If they do, I have an out and I might be able to use this job to squeeze out a few extra concessions. If they don't, I'll still have a hosed up job instead of no job. Dik Hz posted:I'd explain my concerns to the hiring manager directly. If he tries to downplay it in any way, that's an even bigger red flag. Wanting something in writing before accepting is standard operating procedure. If they try to gaslight you in any way, they're not going to be less lovely when you're more under their power. I'm not sure who's actually making decisions since the contract agency is in the way. If I end up backing out I'm tempted to reach out to the team leader and apologize, since this was my first choice based on the work alone.
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Oct 10, 2019 21:50
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Contract agencies can be pretty scummy. If you're only talking to them they may be the source of the bs. But if they're paying you the point stands about this being a red flag. Just might explain the company being cool but this experience going poorly.
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Oct 10, 2019 22:39
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Yashichi posted:Thanks for the responses, I went to grad school and hosed up my brain so I had no idea how to handle the situation. I interviewed with the team and they're good people doing interesting work, but everyone is employed through lovely contract agencies like the one I'm dealing with. The base pay is good, but I'm anticipating terrible benefits, along with having these cryptic assholes in charge of my compensation and a management structure that could dissolve the entire department in five seconds.
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Oct 10, 2019 22:40
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IMO it’s insane to accept an offer without knowing all the details of compensation and benefits. These aren’t “minor details” but potentially many thousands of dollars worth of comp. There’s no good reason I can think of for them to be concealing all that until you “accept” except for it all being a grand bait-and-switch that ends with you being given a package worse than was promised verbally. Especially with some (likely scummy) third party contract body shop middlemanning you. “My acceptance is contingent upon review of the total compensation and benefits package once delivered to me in writing” should be your stance. Unless you’re really hard-up for a job, this just seems like a lot of red flags to me.
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Oct 10, 2019 22:59
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I've received an offer and I don't know who to negotiate with. The external recruiter? She was a real piece of work and the company sent me the offer directly. The internal recruiter/HR guy? The hiring manager? I have a call with the CIO this afternoon (potential grandboss), do I bring it up with him? I'm not sure what he wants to talk about.
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Oct 10, 2019 23:14
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Drink and Fight posted:I've received an offer and I don't know who to negotiate with. The external recruiter? She was a real piece of work and the company sent me the offer directly. The internal recruiter/HR guy? The hiring manager? I have a call with the CIO this afternoon (potential grandboss), do I bring it up with him? I'm not sure what he wants to talk about.
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Oct 10, 2019 23:22
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Dik Hz posted:Bring it up with the hiring manager. You're most likely negotiating with a VP or C-suite exec with the hiring manager or HR as an intermediary. I don't actually have his contact info. Is it weird to look it up online? Should I ask the internal recruiter? Edit: Also, the number they gave is quite a bit under what I was expecting (I will negotiate), but it's also a little less than the number I'm hoping to see from Company B. The recruiter for Company B is asking what Company A offered, should I tell him? Should I tell him a higher number? I told him the other day I was expecting a higher number from Company A and they also have 401k matching which B doesn't offer, and he wrote that down. Thanks, I will probably have more questions once I have both offers in hand. Drink and Fight fucked around with this message at 00:42 on Oct 11, 2019 |
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Oct 10, 2019 23:41
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Weird thing happened to me today. Recruiter called me and asked about my experience for a job I didn't apply for. I tell her, and then she says "tbh you're overqualified, they're looking for someone with 2 years of experience. Y'know, salary wise. It's a solid 6 figures but jobs with your experience go for waaaay more." I have 5 years of experience and make 52k. Anyway I told her "I'm still interested in hearing more" and the job description she sent definitely doesn't sound like a 6 figure job, but now I wonder if my company would even believe me if I said "I was turned down for a 6 figure job for being overqualified!" I asked for a raise over a week ago and still haven't heard poo poo, but I guess we'll see. Anyway I also told a different hiring manager "I'd like to discuss the value I can bring to this company more" for the first time today and it went way better than I expected, this was pretty far out of my comfort zone. So thank you thread, you've really been helping me out lately.
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Oct 11, 2019 00:28
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That's a nice script. I've heard it before.
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Oct 11, 2019 01:12
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Can we talk about non job negotiation for things like sales? My firm gets what amounts to a finder's fee for the first year of any revenue I find for Partner company. Parner company has a regulated product that is pretty much baked for an adjacent market but can be applied to my market with about two lines of code and a couple days of documentation. I have a customer that needs to do basically exactly what Partner company offers off the shelf to sell their expensive capital equipment regulated product in said adjacent market. Customer is a tech startup who has incredibly aggressive timelines for year one, is cost sensitive at all times, but especially in following years to keep margin high. Customer realistically cannot develop this themselves in the time available, and trying to do so would be a guaranteed 1 year slip. Partner has offered a flat product cost and has set the high anchor. Customer doesn't like that structure or cost. Here is my thought process: Tim Thomas weighting function: This one is pretty straightforward, I want to (1) Maximize revenue in year 1 and (2) Make customer successful. Customer weighting function: Less straightforward, but basically in order to continue to be viable they have to (1) Get product out door as close to on time as possible; not doing this means they probably fold. Following are (2) Conserve cash in long term for future investment/buyers so financials look good and the usual (3) Conserve cash in short term. Partner goals: This one is a lot harder for me to figure out. I would assume it's (1) Maximize overall revenue, followed by (2) entering an adjacent market to raise their SAM, and (3) make customer successful. Since their dev is effectively a sunk cost at this point, I'm having trouble figuring how to value their BATNA. The thing that makes the most sense for me and customer is to increase the first product sale price for year one to hit dates, potentially with a delivery kicker for performance to get me paid, then offer a heavy discounting schedule on future product buys. The thing that probably makes sense to partner is to do nothing and let customer come to terms with the situation they are in. What's the optimal play here? Tim Thomas fucked around with this message at 01:56 on Oct 11, 2019 |
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Oct 11, 2019 01:52
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Get out of sales
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Oct 11, 2019 02:03
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sadus posted:Get out of sales Fair, but we're bootstrapping a startup and keeping the lights on by doing consulting and helping with poo poo like this. For reference, this deal at present would net us enough to pay out salaries for the company for 6 months and would be equivalent to a 5% stake in the company at our current valuation.
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Oct 11, 2019 02:06
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Drink and Fight posted:I don't actually have his contact info. Is it weird to look it up online? Should I ask the internal recruiter? As for not having the hiring manager's information? You interviewed with him, I presume? Didn't you get it then? Conducting the hiring negotiations at arm's length from the hiring manager is a pretty big red flag that they're playing hardball to lowball you. I'd consider walking away. If you need this job, I'd manufacture a pretense to talk directly with the hiring manager and then bring up salary expectations with him. If that went south, you'd be getting hosed regardless.
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Oct 11, 2019 02:06
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Here's a red-hot negotiating tip that many people know, but a surprising number of people haven't practiced. When negotiating verbally, know how to use silence. It sounds simple and in many ways it is, but some people aren't good at public speaking or get nervous when talking to someone and fail at this all the time. Saying nothing and having a pause in the conversation can have just as much significance as saying words. Scenario: You have completed an interview over the phone. You are not in the same room as the people hundreds of miles away. Hiring Manager "I see on your application form that your salary expectation is $80,000 to $100,000. That's way out of bounds for this position, and frankly my superiors wanted me to throw this application away just for that number." Nervous introvert "Oh gee I didn't know what to put down in that field, I'm sorry, what's a more reasonable number???" Confident negotiator "... [uncomfortably long silence] ..." Who is in the better bargaining position now? My point is that it is OK to say nothing, and many idiots know this one weird trick to seem smart or powerful. The best advice is never say a number, and don't forget that saying nothing is one way to do this. Silence can feel uncomfortable if you're not used to bargaining, but it is often uncomfortable for the other party as well. Whether someone is trying to offer you a job or offer you a good price on a used TV, letting their low offer hang there for several seconds can get good results. It's just another tool in the toolbox. Don't just blurt things out due to social awkwardness. It's OK to frazzle the other side a little bit, you don't have to immediately answer everything truthfully or even answer at all.
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Oct 11, 2019 07:33
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Had a phone interview today with the company recruiter. Ended the call by asking me what my salary expectations were. I told him I am currently evaluating the market. I am moving geographic locations and in my mind this response deferred the compensation question, but also implied I am also seeking offers from other parties (I am). I am also in a pretty in-demand position (three companies reached out to me within 2-hours of submitting my application), so I am really trying to keep them guessing with potential offers without sounding too much like an arrogant prick. BATNA and all that.
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Oct 11, 2019 10:04
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This thread is awesome and I’m just hoping for a quick on on whether this tactic is worthwhile. I interviewed organization A where I’d like to escape my current job, which very quickly turned to absolute poo poo for a number of reasons and may not even exist in another year. I left the last interview and got a call an hour and a half later with the hiring manager saying this is unprecedented, but we are already extending an offer this quick. So, they really want me and I know from my buddy who works there they have trouble filling positions because of lack of skill sets in the talent pool. Anyways, they they came in at 91k, the midpoint for the range, with a 15-28% bonus. I immediately countered to 113k (which I secretly know is basically the top of the overall range). They responded with 98k is the absolute max they have been given to offer for the position. They were explicit in saying they couldn’t go any higher. Here’s my question, is this a decent strategy: my goal is to get them to 102k by saying that’s the minimum I need to make a move. And hey, I am expecting another offer and my current company will likely counter offer when they find out about your offer - but I am willing to forgo those offers and sign right now if you can get to 102k. Sound ok? I’ll probably accept the position even if they don’t come up for a number of reasons I won’t bore you with, but I obviously want to do the best I can up front. Thanks thread!
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Oct 11, 2019 11:03
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don't know why you would get in to all that nonsense about other offers and counteroffers when you can just say "102k is the minimum i can accept to make the move." keep in mind that at least in my eyes your credibility would be damaged somewhat if as the employer i held firm and then you took 98k anyway, but i hate liars. it's probably better to anchor it in terms of market, etc rather than personal requirement because if you say "market says 100-115 but if you can go up to 102 (based on my sick nasty skills and achievements that i can deploy for you ASAP) then i'll sign today and start in two weeks" and they refuse, you don't lose credibility by saying yes to 98.
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Oct 11, 2019 13:31
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:don't know why you would get in to all that nonsense about other offers and counteroffers when you can just say "102k is the minimum i can accept to make the move." keep in mind that at least in my eyes your credibility would be damaged somewhat if as the employer i held firm and then you took 98k anyway, but i hate liars. it's probably better to anchor it in terms of market, etc rather than personal requirement because if you say "market says 100-115 but if you can go up to 102 (based on my sick nasty skills and achievements that i can deploy for you ASAP) then i'll sign today and start in two weeks" and they refuse, you don't lose credibility by saying yes to 98. Thank you - this is some sick nasty advice 
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Oct 11, 2019 13:47
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Fireside Nut posted:This thread is awesome and I’m just hoping for a quick on on whether this tactic is worthwhile. Glad you're enjoying the thread! Remember all the posts we've made about information asymmetry? To spell it out, information asymmetry is valuable when you have information and your negotiating counterparty does not have that information. Which of the two decisions is most valuable: - my goal is to get them to 102k by saying that’s the minimum I need to make a move. And hey, I am expecting another offer and my current company will likely counter offer when they find out about your offer - but I am willing to forgo those offers and sign right now if you can get to 102k. Sound ok? - my goal is to get them to 102k by saying that’s the minimum I need to make a move. You're reeking of wanting to work at this place in this thread by talking about how you can accept with them, and not reeking of wanting to get paid by talking about how you're going to play them off the other offers you're gonna get. I can read it in two posts, the people you're negotiating with can read it too.
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Oct 11, 2019 14:05
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Dwight Eisenhower posted:Glad you're enjoying the thread! Thanks, Dwight. I sincerely appreciate your reading of the situation and the advice. I’m probably coming off that way because I’ve received multiple offers from organizations in the area and the market rate has generally been decently below what my current company and the new company are willing to pay. In the end, I don’t want to walk away from the offer completely because, at the moment anyways, I know it’s going to be tough to do better until I acquire some new skills and accrue more time doing this type of work.
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Oct 11, 2019 14:55
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Fireside Nut posted:Thanks, Dwight. I sincerely appreciate your reading of the situation and the advice. This is the kind of valuable information that will help us advise you better, AND, that you absolutely need to guard from your negotiating counterparty! From what you're saying you have a bunch of datapoints about your market worth, and the offer you're looking at is at the high end of your market worth. You have an offer that's better than your other offers. Know when you've won! We repeat "you're underpaid" ad nauseum because most people who need help on negotiating are underpaid (if they didn't need help negotiating, they would probably be paid fair...). It sounds like all your other options that aren't this offer are inferior. On the one hand this means your negotiating position is weak as crap. On the other hand it means you've successfully found a better opportunity than you're likely to find. You essentially have the employee version of "what's your current salary": you have an idea what the salary range for this position is including the top end. From here all you have is bluffing, but bluffing can still make you money. If you wanna thread the needle on trying to juice the offer but still being able to take the 98k with a straight face, say "At 102k I can stop evaluating other opportunities and sign with you right now." It doesn't put a hard line that you then back off of, but still gives them an incentive to get another 4k without disclosing any material info.
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Oct 11, 2019 15:36
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Dwight Eisenhower posted:This is the kind of valuable information that will help us advise you better, AND, that you absolutely need to guard from your negotiating counterparty! Thank you so much! Yes, I probably should have included more context - I always try to walk a fine line as to not include too much extraneous info when asking for advice in BFC. Some posts really drag on and I was trying to be as parsimonious as possible for the sake of generous folks like yourself, but I left out a key piece of info. I should be talking with them shortly so I’ll let the thread know how I turns out. No matter what, I already negotiated up 7k (which is magnified in the bonus and 6% 401k match) and will end up above market for the area, so I can take some solace in knowing that’s a win. 
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Oct 11, 2019 16:08
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if $102,000 is the number you want and think they might to come up to, then counter with $105,000.Cheesemaster200 posted:I am also in a pretty in-demand position (three companies reached out to me within 2-hours of submitting my application), so I am really trying to keep them guessing with potential offers without sounding too much like an arrogant prick. BATNA and all that. Sounding like an arrogant prick doesn't damage your position as much as you might think. It's better than sounding insecure and needy, anyhow.
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Oct 11, 2019 19:43
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Asking for too much is very rarely wrong. I was once contacted by a recruiter to move to a job in Saudi, which is somewhere I would absolutely hate to go. I told her I wouldn’t even think of it for less than 500k USD base salary, which was my “make up a ridiculous number” at the time (by memory, about 2.2-2.5x what I was then on as a mid level lawyer). Killed that offer but apparently it caused the hiring manager to go back and ask for more first, and the same recruiter suddenly started finding me more senior roles with a much higher base. That in turn gave me a much better batna when I eventually did move. I had a drink with her a few months later and she outright told me that the high ask made her think I was suited for more senior jobs. It’s weird what affects people’s opinions.
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Oct 11, 2019 20:10
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Finally got the written offer! Pay is what was previously discussed but the rest is incoherent. Emailing back to find out what "Holidays: N/A" means. Other company reached out to tell me they will let me know about an offer by Tuesday morning. Will update with final outcome around then.Dik Hz posted:Ah Ok, that changes things. The contract agency is pressuring you to accept before you see the offer because they know it's insultingly low and they only get paid if you accept. gently caress that poo poo, tbh. What's your graduate degree in? Applied math. It's been a rough search, I originally planned on going into academia (lol) so I didn't do any industry internships or non-teaching positions. Guinness posted:IMO it’s insane to accept an offer without knowing all the details of compensation and benefits. These aren’t “minor details” but potentially many thousands of dollars worth of comp. Important factor in bold. All the interviews I did were purely technical or team fit and compensation wasn't really discussed. The offer was presented by somebody I had never been in contact with at the contract agency, and it's kind of lovely so I assume that's why they hid it for so long. You guys have convinced me I shouldn't feel bad about backing out if necessary, which is a huge relief since this contract job is a better option than unemployment.
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Oct 11, 2019 20:30
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Yashichi posted:Finally got the written offer! Pay is what was previously discussed but the rest is incoherent. Emailing back to find out what "Holidays: N/A" means. Other company reached out to tell me they will let me know about an offer by Tuesday morning. Will update with final outcome around then. So many flags here. And this is from the guy who accepted a "verbal offer". Good luck on your other offers and you should probably keep searching even if you do accept this offer. What kind of jobs have you been looking for? My colleague at my current (about to be former) job got her MS in Applied Math. Our team does credit risk modeling at a big 4 consulting company. Job hunting was extremely easy for me, though I'm 5 years out of grad school as opposed to a fresh grad. If you can get your foot in the door at a reputable company that should open up a ton of opportunities for you in just a few years. First one is always the toughest though. bamhand fucked around with this message at 20:46 on Oct 11, 2019 |
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Oct 11, 2019 20:43
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