|
FilthyImp posted:Iirc "Radiation" was like the big reason why most on the first X-Men had powers. Children of the Atom and all that. Apocalypse being the first mutant can’t have had much to do with radiation though, so that must have been softly retconned
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2019 00:16
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 9, 2024 18:03 |
|
|
Sandwolf posted:Apocalypse being the first mutant can’t have had much to do with radiation though, so that must have been softly retconned Yeah, the whole "radiation makes mutants" thing was only really A Thing back when Apocalypse hadn't even been vaguely considered, much less created; we're talking back in the 60s and 70s here, when no one knew anything about how radiation worked and Stan Lee was no exception.
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2019 00:25
|
|
|
Radiation created about 90% of early marvel heroes and villains
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2019 00:35
|
|
|
Wanda and Pietro weren't the only ones who got de-mutated. Squirrel Girl is another easy example. Toro, the original Human Torch's sidekick, used to be confirmed as a mutant right down to having it be confirmed by Reed Richards and the Mad Thinker, but then was revealed as Inhuman recently. My point WRT Franklin is that...it can be as "official" as possible, as outright confirmed in-canon multiple times over as long a period as you like through the most reliable sources that you can find in-universe...but all of that can be rendered obsolete the minute that it's no longer convenient for the character to be a mutant. Hickman recently called him a mutant in the books, but did he ever even use that word, even once, in all the long whiles that he writing the FF books? Obviously, I don't like that characters' continuity can get tossed around willy-nilly for the sake of licensing. But all I'm saying is, all it takes is a single copyright change and we're right back to the days of studiously ignoring Franklin's status, or outright retconning it no matter what's been in these books. Endless Mike posted:Cable/X-Men: Have Jean's powers, but not Cyclops's Polaris has Magneto's exact powers, just greener. It used to be that the only thing Nightcrawler inherited from Mystique was blue skin, and then they went and changed it so that he got teleportation from Azazel as well. Sam Guthrie's baby has some sorta invulnerability thing. The general tendency seems to be that first generation mutants can have any random combination of powers within their family -- Cyclops, Havok, and Vulcan have different powers, Piotr and Illyana completely different, all the Guthries have different powers -- but second generation mutants get pretty directly influenced by one or another or both of their parents' powers. Any exceptions would be deviations from the norm. Of course, again, it all just ultimately comes down to "whatever the heck a writer feels like at the moment."
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2019 00:46
|
|
|
Rick posted:The whole parents don't inherit their their parents power thing is why Rachel Summer's mutant power is her astral time travel thing, and her TP/TK powers were either directly from the Phoenix force (or just its "residue"), and she can't move her body through time without the Phoenix force, just her mind, so that's why she doesn't do that a ton anymore. I mean if you believe Claremont, the Phoenix Force is considered her "father" through means of, uh. Cosmic conception or something, I guess. Now you just have to wait for someone to reveal that the Phoenix Force is a mutant. 
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2019 00:49
|
|
|
I've actually always been a strong proponent of the "Rachel's mother was the surviving Phoenix clone not Jean" theory ala the What-If where that specifically happens.
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2019 01:03
|
|
|
BrianWilly posted:My point WRT Franklin is that...it can be as "official" as possible, as outright confirmed in-canon multiple times over as long a period as you like through the most reliable sources that you can find in-universe...but all of that can be rendered obsolete the minute that it's no longer convenient for the character to be a mutant. Hickman recently called him a mutant in the books, but did he ever even use that word, even once, in all the long whiles that he writing the FF books? quote:Obviously, I don't like that characters' continuity can get tossed around willy-nilly for the sake of licensing. But all I'm saying is, all it takes is a single copyright change and we're right back to the days of studiously ignoring Franklin's status, or outright retconning it no matter what's been in these books. That's great, but your initial question was quote:I have to wonder about Franklin. Is it actually confirmed that he has the X-gene? I suppose it'd be weird if Reed hasn't had it genetically-confirmed.
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2019 01:37
|
|
|
Rick posted:I've actually always been a strong proponent of the "Rachel's mother was the surviving Phoenix clone not Jean" theory ala the What-If where that specifically happens. I'm about 99% sure off the top of my head that that's actually meant to be the case. The fine details of Rachel's timeline have changed several times for one reason or another, even when Claremont was the only writer responsible for it, but the first big point of divergence was always that her world had the original intended ending for the Dark Phoenix Saga, where the X-Men deadass lost the fight on the moon in #137, the Sh'iar depowered Jean, and she and Scott retired from the hero business.
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2019 03:09
|
|
|
galagazombie posted:Doesn't "Mutants will wipe out Mankind and all the protagonists actively hope for and brag about that" Ruin the whole central theme of the X-Men? I always took "Next step in Evolution" to mean mutants were just that, Humanities next step forward. There would be more and more children being born with mutations till everyone had them. It meant that whatever metaphor was currently in vogue, whether mutants represented Black People or Counter-Culture alienation or LGBTQ, the whole point of "The Dream" was that they were just people who were different and deserved to be treated the same as everyone else. And every close-minded bigot who wanted to kill them was just that, a closed-minded bigot who was as wrong and contemptible as any real life racist, anti-semite, or any other group motivated by fear of what they don't understand. But if mutants are some wholly separate manner of being that if not stopped will wipe out humanity, than every anti-mutant villain not only is sympathetic, they're In the right.Every Sentinel and Purifier and so on is acting out of a morally correct decision to protect themselves and their descendants. Remember the "Cro-Magnon Problem". That, had it not been for Genosha, mutants would already be the majority. Then recall what The Librarian said. The Sentinels bought humanity years. The Nimrods bought them centuries. And in the end they were able to render mutants both almost entirely extinct AND wholly obsolete. So now Mutants are the ones stalling. But instead of violently staving off simple nature, as humans have done, they're defensively staving off genocide by the humans. They aren't being nice about it anymore, but that in no way makes the bigots who have tormented them justified or sympathetic.
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2019 03:26
|
|
|
There is no Phoenix clone anymore. Just Jean. At least as of AvX.
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2019 03:59
|
|
|
Billzasilver posted:The Franklin Richards case is interesting, because his sister Valeria Richards is pretty much equally powerful as a superhero, and she has no super powers in any form whatsoever. I mean, they can say that all they want, but Valeria Richards is superpowered somehow just because of the ridiculously young age Hickman keeps sticking her with. quote:At the age of two, she is already incredibly intelligent, nearly at the level of Reed. Valeria ... created a very advanced artificial intelligence-based toy which Reed and Franklin plan to sell to Disney.[19] Reed has said she, at the mere age of three, had already surpassed his intelligence. I remember complaining about this especially in the Hickman Fantastic Four run -- Valeria would be reasonable as a precocious comic book eight-year-old, maybe, but the fact that she's 2-3 years old means there's not even enough time for her motor skills to come in, and gives you the ludicrous picture of this bald, big-headed baby reading computer science textbooks. Hell, she's drawn as being 8 or 10 years old, but if Hickman insists on having her designing an artificial intelligence at the age of two, then just by definition she's got some kind of superpower.
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2019 04:23
|
|
|
She got aged up in Slott's F4, she's like 10-14 now I think.
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2019 04:27
|
|
|
Phenotype posted:she's 2-3 years old means there's not even enough time for her motor skills to come in You've... never met a 2-3 year old have you? Also, her wiki page is a bad source for her age because there's a lot of contradictory poo poo there. In the Waid run, she's clearly a toddler (~2). Hickman's run casts her around 6-8 for most of it. loving Slott has established her as a teenager with lovely boy-crushes and that angers me. Anyway, Val's super-power is being loving awesome.
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2019 04:33
|
|
|
Best thing Mark Millar did for Marvel.
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2019 05:02
|
|
|
The fact that Moria and Xavier knew who would be good parents to legion make that story even more hosed up. Xavier was Gabrielle Haller therapist and this recon makes it more likely he made her fall in love with him.
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2019 10:46
|
|
|
Endless Mike posted:Hm. I swear that at one point in the 90's the idea was Cable's mutant power was that he had Jean Grey's telepathy/telekinesis. But unlike a regular telepath who gets their power from, I don't know, the Astral Plane? INSTEAD Cable got his powers from the Sun. Because Cyclops eye beams were thought of as being solar powered*. And obviously being a solar powered telepath makes him more powerful than a normal telepath. For reasons. Comics. This is something that doesn't show up because it is so very dumb. *= I have to assume that's something to do with the episode of the X-Men comic with the Morlocks set in the sewers where Cyclops loses his powers by being underground too long.
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2019 11:18
|
|
|
Aphrodite posted:Natural selection doesn't exist in civilizations with advanced medicine and everything though. Selection exists in modern civilisations, albeit it's reactive more to the social conditions under which people operate than the harshness of the natural world. At any rate if they want good posthumans why bother with all this mutant gene stuff and not just try to create a better Sentry formula, HMM??? (Unless his origin was retconned and I just forgot.)
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2019 12:26
|
|
|
Adder Moray posted:The plan is to stall for time with minimal violence to undo the time humanity has managed to stall for in order to be able to violently wipe out mutants. I think you're misunderstanding me, I'm saying that the way Mutants have traditionally been written, that even if you yourself aren't one your kids or grandkids will be so you're genetic line will still succeed. Our Cro-Magnon ancestors would be delighted to know that their descendants have evolved and prospered for an example. This whole arc seems like it's changing it from "Mutants are the future, but don't worry everyone will eventually join the club" vs "Mutants are the future, all but us privileged few can eat poo poo and die." There's a huge difference between "extinct" because the species evolved into something new, and extinct because your line was killed off.
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2019 13:27
|
|
|
A lot of people are talking about anyone with powers as posthuman but it seemed to me that they were talking about having the technology to create powers of their choosing in people.
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2019 13:30
|
|
|
Do you think Hickman is on team Magneto Was Right?
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2019 16:00
|
|
|
It basically seems like if you take the view that "humans" and "mutants" are not meaningfully separate groups, this story is just going to blink at you in confusion.
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2019 16:13
|
|
|
And like, everything X men I would think
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2019 16:36
|
|
|
Rand Brittain posted:It basically seems like if you take the view that "humans" and "mutants" are not meaningfully separate groups, this story is just going to blink at you in confusion. So would the entirety of X Men. They have been classifying mutants as Homo Superior for the majority of their lifespan
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2019 17:01
|
|
|
galagazombie posted:I think you're misunderstanding me, I'm saying that the way Mutants have traditionally been written, that even if you yourself aren't one your kids or grandkids will be so you're genetic line will still succeed. Our Cro-Magnon ancestors would be delighted to know that their descendants have evolved and prospered for an example. This whole arc seems like it's changing it from "Mutants are the future, but don't worry everyone will eventually join the club" vs "Mutants are the future, all but us privileged few can eat poo poo and die." There's a huge difference between "extinct" because the species evolved into something new, and extinct because your line was killed off. Is there really? The X-Men have dozens of stories about humans hating their own mutant children. I think most versions of the Stryker family have that going on.
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2019 17:25
|
|
|
This is why Xavier's dream was originally so important. It was not about "mutants are better than humans." It was not even about "mutants are super special precious things and thereby need to be protected." I have no idea where people are getting those notions from. Xavier's dream was nothing more and nothing less than the idea of peaceful coexistence. The idea that people should not fear what is different, but embrace it. The idea that there does not need to be some violent genocidal revolution every time a new species appears. Yes, the Cro-magnons may have killed the Neanderthals, who may have killed whoever came before them (actually, IRL we have absolutely no idea what happened between proto-humans and the idea that they were at war with each other is purely projective), but the point is that this does not need to happen again. We can move beyond that. This is why the X-Men, at their core, are and should be heroes, because they are ultimately fighting for very core heroic values of of acceptance and goodwill. I can understand the underlying driving force of this run is that mutants have been losing and losing and dying and losing and dying and dying and dying and losing and dying and losing and dying for so long now that they've had all the goodwill choked out of them. I genuinely like that Hickman is directly addressing how downtrodden the X-Men have become, because it's far past gotten to the point of being ridiculous so yeah might as well make it an integral part of the story. But I do not like this weird reframing of Xavier's dream, and the underlying premise of this dream always failing is really crude and cynical because Hickman is essentially saying people will never ever get along and that we'll just be hateful towards anyone different from us forever. And if he really believes that the core of the X-Men is that they think mutants are better than everyone and so deserve special treatment just for being mutants, then I'm not hesitant to say that Hickman doesn't understand what the core of the X-Men actually is no matter how many fancy ideas he comes up with here.
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2019 21:59
|
|
|
BrianWilly posted:But I do not like this weird reframing of Xavier's dream, and the underlying premise of this dream always failing is really crude and cynical because Hickman is essentially saying people will never ever get along and that we'll just be hateful towards anyone different from us forever. Uh... how's that? We'll all be at peace in the black holes
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2019 22:16
|
|
|
I mean, people are still bigoted and racist toward gays and minorities and that's been going on for centuries so saying that people will always be bigoted toward mutants isn't really a stretch. Besides, it's been said constantly that Xavier still has a good heart. This is peaceful coexistence. I also have no idea where you're getting that stuff about Hickman saying the X-Men think they're better and deserve special treatment. They want to survive and live and be treated as equals, just like they always have. This is just a different way of going about it.
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2019 22:48
|
|
|
They’ve explicitly declared their intention of being treated as gods.
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2019 22:52
|
|
|
Rand Brittain posted:They’ve explicitly declared their intention of being treated as gods. Magneto has declared that, which is a perfectly Magneto thing to declare.
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2019 22:55
|
|
|
Codependent Poster posted:I mean, people are still bigoted and racist toward gays and minorities and that's been going on for centuries so saying that people will always be bigoted toward mutants isn't really a stretch. Yeah, the interpretation Hickman is presenting is "what if humanity always leans towards Nazis." What if 9 iterations of your life always ended up in the genocide of your people? I'd gather that you'd question the idea of co-existence. And in the broader context of our world, we've seen a rise in ideas we thought long pushed aside. I don't think it is crazy to represent the mutants-as-metaphor idea in a different light in 2019. Punch Nazis = Found an island nation and give cancer drugs to humanity in exchange for sovereignty. We want to believe in The Dream because that's been the definitive concept of the X-Men forever. But it may not work contextually anymore. I think one of the things Hickman is bringing here is an approach that is more contemporary.
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2019 23:07
|
|
|
It’s good that Xavier is finally preserving his friendship with Magneto.
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2019 23:29
|
|
|
Billzasilver posted:It’s good that Xavier is finally preserving his friendship with Magneto. I have a feeling half the Hickman written issues are gonna have me screaming "just loving kiss already" at my comics.
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2019 23:33
|
|
|
They lean in to kiss. *Bonk!* They didn’t take off their helmets.
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2019 23:56
|
|
|
Billzasilver posted:It’s good that Xavier is finally preserving his friendship with Magneto. Now they play sexy strip Chess.
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2019 23:59
|
|
|
BrianWilly posted:This is why Xavier's dream was originally so important. It was not about "mutants are better than humans." It was not even about "mutants are super special precious things and thereby need to be protected." I have no idea where people are getting those notions from. Xavier's dream was nothing more and nothing less than the idea of peaceful coexistence. The idea that people should not fear what is different, but embrace it. The idea that there does not need to be some violent genocidal revolution every time a new species appears. I would actually argue that you don't understand the core idea of X-Men. One of the core ideas behind X-Men is the idea that people are changing and becoming something different, and eventually they will become something different. In world terms this depends on the idea of people becoming homo superior (or something else) but in out-of-world terms it involves the idea of a new generation who is different from the previous generation. And that is something incredibly relevant in the modern day and age where the current generation is shifting in a lot of ways which the older generations actively are refusing to acknowledge or actively fighting against. The new X-Men are fighting for acceptance and goodwill. They're just no longer willing to do it by allowing abuse to be heaped upon them. They are using their power, their community, and their strength to establish their own place in the world. In the modern world where children have to speak in front of the UN to desperately beg uncaring politicians not to literally murder humanity that is a far more heroic ideal than the "what if we just be REALLY NICE and hope they change their mind" attitude.
|
|
#
?
Oct 12, 2019 00:20
|
|
|
Homo Sapiens are the boomers.
|
|
#
?
Oct 12, 2019 00:31
|
|
|
I think it bears repeating that the start of this story could very well not resemble the end-- Fantastic Four started at "Everything dies" and ended up at "Everything lives".
|
|
#
?
Oct 12, 2019 00:59
|
|
|
Cabbit posted:I think it bears repeating that the start of this story could very well not resemble the end-- Fantastic Four started at "Everything dies" and ended up at "Everything lives". Oh I am certain things will change and we'll probably go back to a more generic status quo, but I think the thing about this story is that it's not really out of character. Maybe we're not getting enough on-the-ground discussion of it in the initial leadup but I don't think it's an incorrect viewing of Xavier's dream.
|
|
#
?
Oct 12, 2019 01:04
|
|
|
ImpAtom posted:Oh I am certain things will change and we'll probably go back to a more generic status quo, but I think the thing about this story is that it's not really out of character. Maybe we're not getting enough on-the-ground discussion of it in the initial leadup but I don't think it's an incorrect viewing of Xavier's dream. Yeah I think it's a pretty important detail to note that Xavier isn't going "hey humanity this island is ours everyone gently caress off and leave us alone or we'll use our awesome mutant powers to gently caress you up," the way Magneto did with Genosha; he's freely distributing Magic Krakoa Flowers that will make life inarguably better for the vast majority of humankind (at least, so far as we're currently aware). In a very real sense he's still pushing for peaceful and mutually beneficial coexistence, he's just doing it as a separate and distinct society of mutantkind instead of seeing mutants subsumed into humanity. It's an abandonment of the "model minority" approach, but by no means an abandonment of the ideals of peaceful coexistence.
|
|
#
?
Oct 12, 2019 01:09
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 9, 2024 18:03 |
|
|
ImpAtom posted:I would actually argue that you don't understand the core idea of X-Men.  Generations are always changing and shifting in ways that the old guard don't foresee or like; that's always been true. And so incremental change does occur. But what you're talking about with Greta Thunberg is still the same sort of activism that progressives have always deployed. It has a particularly confrontational and condemnatory tone to it, but the anger of the young towards the old -- and vice versa -- is not a brand new thing that's just happening now. Thunberg hasn't issued any ultimatums. She hasn't offered any bargains and threats. It's enlivening to see someone like her act as the voice of a tired and angry community, yet whether any real change comes from it still relies on whether the assholes in charge give enough a poo poo about the noise that she's making. Same as with the Parkland activists before her, and Malala Yousafzai before them, and Columbine activists before her, and etc. I'm not knocking it, by the way, I love and admire what they do. But I don't understand what point you're trying to make by citing this sort of activism as a comparison to Krakoan extremism when it is still ultimately just people...not being nice perhaps, but still playing within the rules, coloring within the lines, and hoping that the people in power will change their mind through the sheer force of your persuasion. That's still the classic X-Men credo, not this radicalized version. Incidentally, you're confusing "wanting peace" with "being nice." The fact that Xavier wanted peace and harmony does not mean he was bending over backwards to be accommodating and polite to humankind. But he ultimately did believe in humankind's capacity for change and the fact that not every person was a bad seed just because a lot of them were. If that's not patently "heroic" enough for this cynical new world then well. Sucks. But that was once his dream regardless and no amount of fancy words will obfuscate that. And just a point of fact: this attitude of his also applied towards mutantkind as well, the hope that not all of them will be as hate-ridden and violent as Magneto forever. 'Cuz lest we forget, time used to be that mutants caused just as much problems for other mutants as humans did. But that doesn't quite fit in with this current mutant unity theme so hey we'll just breeze past it I guess. BrianWilly fucked around with this message at 01:33 on Oct 12, 2019 |
|
#
?
Oct 12, 2019 01:29
|
|