UKMT Red October 2019: Lies, dem libs, and polling companies.

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > UKMT Red October 2019: Lies, dem libs, and polling companies.

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Vitamin P: Nov 19, 2013; Truth is game rigging is more difficult than it looks pls stay ded

I feel like such a boomer for not knowing who the Weetman is.

# ? Oct 13, 2019 22:56

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# ? May 23, 2024 14:02

Debbie Does Dagon: Jul 8, 2005

Vitamin P posted:

I feel like such a boomer for not knowing who the Weetman is.

Ex-Labour councillor melt, fired for being poo poo and useless, and member of the "Corbyn is Hitler" bandwagon

https://twitter.com/wariotifo/status/1183127647292940288

# ? Oct 13, 2019 23:03

Sanitary Naptime: May 29, 2006; MIWK!

Vitamin P posted:

I feel like such a boomer for not knowing who the Weetman is.

You�re missing out on a self expanding library of unparalleled self owns.

# ? Oct 13, 2019 23:04

Pound_Coin: Feb 5, 2004; �

donoteat has a new series of videos out on engineering disasters, 3 eps up so far:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1TOS68qWHhw

# ? Oct 13, 2019 23:08

Thanks Ants: May 21, 2004; #essereFerrari

There was that Channel 4 series on years ago which this book accompanied https://www.amazon.co.uk/Collapse-Why-Buildings-Fall-Down/dp/0752218174 that covered what you'd call the common case studies of structural failures (Ronan Point, Sampoong, Hyatt Regency). From what I remember it was really good, but doesn't seem to exist online.

# ? Oct 13, 2019 23:18

Vitamin P: Nov 19, 2013; Truth is game rigging is more difficult than it looks pls stay ded

Sanitary Naptime posted:

You�re missing out on a self expanding library of unparalleled self owns.

a learn-to-code joke posted in mid october of 2019, you aint kidding

dont see how shes That Bad compared to the wider fbpe dross though, all of them are poo poo, she seems to be more clout craving poo poo than common or garden lib poo poo but thats no sin

# ? Oct 13, 2019 23:27

Tarnop: Nov 25, 2013; Pull me out

Sanitary Naptime posted:

Manchester goons, please help.

I was down with the missus about four years ago, and we went for breakfast in the northern quarter, and I can't remember the name of the drat place but would like to go again.

It was a very home like cafe type place, they did french toast where the slices were about a half loaf each and it was incredible. There were way more tables in the place than there had any right to be, and specifically one room of the place was nothing but small tables.

This is a poo poo description, but it's all i've got to go on. I will also accept other breakfast recommendations in lieu of the actual answer.

Sounds like Home Sweet Home maybe

# ? Oct 13, 2019 23:29

Vitamin P: Nov 19, 2013; Truth is game rigging is more difficult than it looks pls stay ded

Wait is Weetman the loving knob that put up an insanely obnoxious video saying how great it felt to vote for herself? I might be confusing melts but if so gently caress that piece of poo poo.

# ? Oct 13, 2019 23:32

Sanitary Naptime: May 29, 2006; MIWK!

Tarnop posted:

Sounds like Home Sweet Home maybe

Added to the list of possibles, cheers!

# ? Oct 13, 2019 23:59

kingturnip: Apr 18, 2008

Weetman is in the same category as people like Jess Philips and Neil Coyle.
For them, politics is a game with specific success criteria; if you are elected, you've won.

And that's kind of it - there are no ideological barriers to be breached, no dogmatic principles to be upheld... if you get elected, you've won.

And once you've won, you're entitled to talk as much poo poo as you want, because you won.

I mention Neil Coyle, because he's the Evening Standard's "source" for everything anti-Corbyn. It used to be that he'd put his name to his leaks, but he seems to be self-aware enough to have some self-preservation.

# ? Oct 14, 2019 00:34

Debbie Does Dagon: Jul 8, 2005

So apparently this is a thing? I'm guessing it's a load of poo poo

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/john-mcdonnell-is-labour-leader-in-all-but-name-after-silent-coup-pcs89mmd7

quote:

John McDonnell has been accused of leading a �silent coup� against Jeremy Corbyn amid claims that he has replaced the Labour leader in all but name.

The shadow chancellor has put himself in daily charge of the Labour operation as the party moves to an election footing. Insiders claim he has also launched his own policy platform and drawn up a list of appointments he wants in the leader of the opposition�s office, known as LOTO, to surround Corbyn with his allies.

�McDonnell is now basically the leader of the Labour Party,� said one insider. �It�s a silent coup. He�s getting his own people in, isolating and picking off the old guard around Corbyn.�

# ? Oct 14, 2019 01:00

winegums: Dec 21, 2012

If Mcdonnell and Corbyn were careerists they wouldn't have stuck with socialism for so long. In the Blair years it was p. easy to get ahead in the party by being an empty suit who just nodded along with dear leader.

Sounds like shite being spread by someone who wants to create the image of disagreement between John and Jeremy.

# ? Oct 14, 2019 01:04

Beefeater1980: Sep 12, 2008; My God, it's full of Horatios!

People are poo poo. Corbyn and McDonnell may get on fine but the people around them may not.

There are a limited number of interesting and important jobs in politics. Both Corbyn and McDonnell will have groups of supporters who will expect those jobs: some of these people will be both intelligent enough to realise there is competition and ambitious enough to want to make sure they personally get them. And, presumably, a few of them will also be unwise enough to think that the way to get them is to do this kind of briefing.

# ? Oct 14, 2019 01:19

Ms Adequate: Oct 30, 2011; Baby even when I'm dead and gone
You will always be my only one, my only one
When the night is calling
No matter who I become
You will always be my only one, my only one, my only one
When the night is calling

I thought the whole point of the arrangement was that Jam Grandad would be the inoffensive and kindly face while Big John was breaking legs behind the scenes?

# ? Oct 14, 2019 02:33

Chuka Umana: Apr 30, 2019; by sebmojo

Apparently Boris wants to get Labour voters to switch to the Tories by introducing tougher sentencing for violent crimes?

How do you look at the political situation over the past five years and think, �yea, this is what Labour voters want, more people in prison�

# ? Oct 14, 2019 02:41

Debbie Does Dagon: Jul 8, 2005

That's the problem with being a traditionalist, their idea of a fresh and novel policy position is the Black Act

# ? Oct 14, 2019 03:11

Azza Bamboo: Apr 7, 2018; THUNDERDOME LOSER 2021

Creating a sense that order and civility have gone to the wayside is an age old tory tactic. First generate the sense that "muggers" are lurking behind every street corner. Then put it out there that only a tough Tory government can clean up the streets to make you safe. It works on so many levels: It frames crime as a failing of the individual, and not anything expensive like a lack of welfare or meaningful engagement in society. It allows people to think themselves as better and uses fear to open a backdoor through which the tories would introduce tougher policing and the oppression that imposes. Furthermore it's a policy on which politicians can play a game of "gotcha".

"You mean you don't think someone who has stabbed another man should get longer than [x] years?"

Keep that in mind the next time you hear a BBC news anchor say the words "rise in knife crime".

Azza Bamboo fucked around with this message at 03:25 on Oct 14, 2019

# ? Oct 14, 2019 03:21

Beefeater1980: Sep 12, 2008; My God, it's full of Horatios!

This thread is miserable af sometimes so remember: we are all able to make the world better in little ways every single day. We should do all that while plotting in secret to make it better for everyone!

Palate cleanser: workers being beaten up by the invisible hand of the market

# ? Oct 14, 2019 03:26

His Divine Shadow: Aug 7, 2000; I'm not a fascist. I'm a priest. Fascists dress up in black and tell people what to do.

ThomasPaine posted:

Weetman has a very distinct variation of the Ben Shapiro syndrome - got into gifted and talented class at school and that became her single personality trait and remains so as a grown woman.

This gifted / talented class thing is such repulsive bullshit. I remember some bastard wanted to introduce it in Finland a few years ago, gently caress no thanks.

# ? Oct 14, 2019 04:32

Azza Bamboo: Apr 7, 2018; THUNDERDOME LOSER 2021

BORN TO OPINE
WORLD IS A BULLY
FBPE 250
I AM TWEETMAN
410,757,864,530 SELF OWNS

# ? Oct 14, 2019 04:54

ronya: Nov 8, 2010; I'm the normal one.

You hate ridden fucks will regret your words when you eventually grow up.

Peace.

Chuka Umana posted:

Apparently Boris wants to get Labour voters to switch to the Tories by introducing tougher sentencing for violent crimes?

How do you look at the political situation over the past five years and think, �yea, this is what Labour voters want, more people in prison�

same underlying unease that makes LAB's Diane Abbott, noted fan of the police, promise to put ten thousand more police on the streets by reversing Tory cuts to police forces that are bringing KNIFE CRIMES to a street near you

this is one of those puzzles like the death penalty politics of yore: namely that LAB doesn't like it because it's law-and-order, CON doesn't like it because it costs money, and the technocrats don't lobby for it in the absence of a big push from the top because there is no real reason to think it would improve key metrics. And yet, a little like immigration, an overwhelming majority of the public think that sentencing is too soft.

Nonetheless, also like immigration, when asked on specific sentences for specific kinds of crimes, tend to support punishments similar to what the status quo offers anyway:

quote:

When asked in our online survey about their attitudes towards sentencing in general, seven in ten (70%*) of the English and Welsh public said that they think sentences are too lenient, while less than one in five (17%*) said that they think they are about right,and only 4%* said they are too tough. However, in the qualitative group discussions, including examination of specific sentencing case studies suggested more mixed attitudes towards sentencing, with people less likely to say that sentences are too lenient overall.

Previous research has also found that that opinion surveys asking for the respondent�s general assessment of existing sentencing practices, without being given any information first, typically produce answers that sentencing is too soft; however, exposing the public to real cases or realistic example cases leads them to say sentencing is appropriate or too harsh (British Academy, 2014; Hough and Roberts, 2017).

Several examples of research directed at finding out about public attitudes to sentencing bear this out. In a representative survey of approximately 1,000 people in England and Wales, roughly four-fifths of the sample believed that sentencing was too lenient, with only 16% believing it was �about right� (Mitchell and Roberts,2012). Two fifths (40%) said sentencing was much too lenient in general while 45% said sentencing for murder was much too lenient (Mitchell and Roberts,2012). In another study, using CSEW data from 2008/09 �2010/11, Hough et al. (2013) showed that approximately three-quarters of the public say sentences are too lenient, with little variation in the answers by demographic profile. By way of comparison, they found that the public were less punitive when asked to allocate a sentence to a specific case. For example, when presented with the details of the case of a domestic burglar, 54% of the sample were in favour of imprisonment, with an average custodial sentence length of 12 months. The actual case underlying the example had resulted in a three-year sentence.This is further evidenced by results from our online survey looking at attitudes towards different offences. When asked whether they felt that sentences handed down for particular offences were too tough or too lenient (Figure 6 below), for most offences the proportion saying that sentences were too lenient was significantly higher when asked in general, than when provided with a case study illustrating sentencing for a specific case (Figure 7 below). For example, when asked initially about sentences for rape, 76%* of the general public said that sentences are too lenient. When provided with a specific case study, this dropped to 41%*.

https://www.sentencingcouncil.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/Public-Knowledge-of-and-Confidence-in-the-Criminal-Justice-System-and-Sentencing.pdf

quote:

Asked about their general views on the sentences handed out by courts in Scotland, a majority (56%) expressed the view that the sentences given tend to be too lenient, including over a quarter (26%) who felt they were much too lenient, while just under a third (31%) felt they were about right, and three per cent felt they were too tough on average. This is consistent with much existing research on public attitudes to sentencing, which has been marked by an overwhelming sense of leniency across the demographic spectrum (Hough et al, 2013).

https://www.scottishsentencingcouncil.org.uk/media/1996/20190902-public-perceptions-of-sentencing-report.pdf

This presents an opportunity for entrepreneurial politicians to channel this confusion into electoral success - a majority can be found for any position by controlling the context in which the question is asked.

Sentencing must retain public confidence in its justice; if there is a gap, the technocratic solution is to improve public messaging on how existing systems work and what their goals are. In practice this means flipping any possible ambiguities - for instance, if a custodial sentence is ten years with a typical expectation of being reduced to seven for good behaviour (say), it is much better to have the starting point for sentences be instead seven years with a chance of being increased to ten for bad behaviour; the effect is the same but does not undermine confidence in the judicial process*. This insight is what has underpinned a great amount of recent criminal justice legislation.

* where, it has to be acknowledged, there used to be much more actual leniency for specific offences than the public desired, but this gap has largely closed due to shifts in both sentencing and public opinion.

ronya fucked around with this message at 06:11 on Oct 14, 2019

# ? Oct 14, 2019 06:03

A Buttery Pastry: Sep 4, 2011; Delicious and Informative!

OwlFancier posted:

Guinea pigs are cute but if I touch one I break out in lumps all over my arms.

You're certain they're not Zanzibar hamsters?

# ? Oct 14, 2019 06:14

kingturnip: Apr 18, 2008

ronya posted:

The public are thick; that's all you had to say

# ? Oct 14, 2019 06:32

ronya: Nov 8, 2010; I'm the normal one.

You hate ridden fucks will regret your words when you eventually grow up.

Peace.

that's true, but they're thick in a specific way

# ? Oct 14, 2019 06:40

WhatEvil: Jun 6, 2004; Can't get no luck.

Firos posted:

Does weetman dream of electric tweets?

holy poo poo

# ? Oct 14, 2019 06:43

The Lone Badger: Sep 24, 2007

I oppose increase sentences (as a general thing) because research indicates that severity of punishment has very little effect on deterrence. Speed of punishment and certainty of punishment, those are the two factors that actually matter.
And locking people up for decades is expensive. The same amount of money could do far more to reduce crime if spent in other ways.

# ? Oct 14, 2019 06:53

WAR CRIME GIGOLO: Oct 3, 2012; The Hague
tryna get me
for these glutes

# ? Oct 14, 2019 07:17

Chuka Umana: Apr 30, 2019; by sebmojo

WAR CRIME GIGOLO posted:

�Boris Johnson tried to have this image removed from the Internet...�

# ? Oct 14, 2019 07:22

bump_fn: Apr 12, 2004; _{two of them}

The Lone Badger posted:

I oppose increase sentences (as a general thing) because research indicates that severity of punishment has very little effect on deterrence. Speed of punishment and certainty of punishment, those are the two factors that actually matter.
And locking people up for decades is expensive. The same amount of money could do far more to reduce crime if spent in other ways.

it�s about punishing people you don�t like not reducing crime dummy

# ? Oct 14, 2019 07:29

Angepain: Jul 13, 2012; what keeps happening to my clothes

Vitamin P posted:

I feel like such a boomer for not knowing who the Weetman is.

It's less of a generational thing and more of an Extremely Online thing. Nobody has any remotely good reason to know or care who Frances Weetman is except the close friends and family of Frances Weetman. You should be proud you held out this long

# ? Oct 14, 2019 07:48

Ms Adequate: Oct 30, 2011; Baby even when I'm dead and gone
You will always be my only one, my only one
When the night is calling
No matter who I become
You will always be my only one, my only one, my only one
When the night is calling

As long as the media uses crimes as an attention-getter, I don't think we can have a general public that is particularly well informed. Between the general stories of Crime Go Up and the specific ones of a sensational nature it's not especially surprising that people have a poor understanding of basically any part of the system, less still when "bang 'em up" is such an easy emotional response.

And in turn we struggle to have a productive debate about how to actually reduce crime in general and recidivism in particular. There's no perfect system but there are certainly proven ways to reduce both that gain little traction because they are seen as being soft on wrong'uns, and of course a single failure in an experimental approach is held up as proof it was a soft and wrongheaded approach, without regard for whether it's actually statistically an improvement or whatever. The shortcomings in the existing system are either ignored, or dismissed as evidence that is too soft as well, bring back 'angin'.

Plus it's not like any system is likely to be at all effective if it's been grossly underfunded for years and years.

# ? Oct 14, 2019 07:49

Miftan: Mar 31, 2012; Terry knows what he can do with his bloody chocolate orange...

bump_fn posted:

it’s about punishing people you don’t like not reducing crime dummy

I think since you're an American this counts as expert advice, and we've had enough of experts 'round these parts, cowboy.

# ? Oct 14, 2019 08:15

Jippa: Feb 13, 2009

Vitamin P posted:

I feel like such a boomer for not knowing who the Weetman is.

You aren't missing anything she is just really tedious.

# ? Oct 14, 2019 08:21

Jedit: Dec 10, 2011; Proudly supporting vanilla legends 1994-2014

Angepain posted:

Nobody has any remotely good reason to know or care who Frances Weetman is except ~~the close friends and family of~~ Frances Weetman. You should be proud you held out this long

Fixed for you. Weetman is the kind of person who takes to Twitter for validation because she is her own best and only friend and because her family think she's crap too.

# ? Oct 14, 2019 08:32

The Lone Badger: Sep 24, 2007

bump_fn posted:

it�s about punishing people you don�t like not reducing crime dummy

Yes but I like taking the fig leaf away.

# ? Oct 14, 2019 08:37

ronya: Nov 8, 2010; I'm the normal one.

You hate ridden fucks will regret your words when you eventually grow up.

Peace.

Sentencing is not, in fact, just about harm reduction; some amount of vengeance and dignity for victims, and removal of criminals from streets, are both established and generally legitimate parts of the process (these would be the "retribution" and "incapacitation" parts of the system)

One can develop particular institutional ways to address specific failure modes in the way the demos demands justice. For instance, victim impact statements are a way for victims who feel dissatisfied with outcomes to have their say in an officially sanctioned forum, rather than leaving them feeling wholly abandoned by the judicial system and left only with going to the press for mob justice. It also, conveniently, allows sentencing decisions to address specific points raised by unusually articulate and charismatic victims before it is MISCARRIAGE OF JUSTICE headlines somewhere. etc. These things matter.

# ? Oct 14, 2019 08:50

Ataxerxes: Dec 2, 2011; What is a soldier but a miserable pile of eaten cats and strange language?

His Divine Shadow posted:

This gifted / talented class thing is such repulsive bullshit. I remember some bastard wanted to introduce it in Finland a few years ago, gently caress no thanks.

There is a funny book, Musta Monopoli by Loka-Laitinen, that talks about corruption in the 1970's-1980's Finland. It features a section of a bunch of rich ladies lamenting that with the school reforms of the 1970's (peruskoulu) it isn't easy to simply pay your kids into a good high-school, that they actually have to work to get in.

# ? Oct 14, 2019 09:05

baka kaba: Jul 19, 2003; PLEASE ASK ME, THE SELF-PROFESSED NO #1 PAUL CATTERMOLE FAN IN THE SOMETHING AWFUL S-CLUB 7 MEGATHREAD, TO NAME A SINGLE SONG BY HIS EXCELLENT NU-METAL SIDE PROJECT, SKUA, AND IF I CAN'T PLEASE TELL ME TO
EAT SHIT

ronya posted:

It also, conveniently, allows sentencing decisions to address specific points raised by unusually articulate and charismatic victims before it is MISCARRIAGE OF JUSTICE headlines somewhere. etc.

ronya please

# ? Oct 14, 2019 09:07