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Hub Cat posted:Sorry I'm an idiot and I skimmed your post quickly. Naah, all good. It's just conversation, and you're right, I hadn't remembered that the circle had been deliberately sabotaged. Grave Peril is, I think, a more interesting case, since it's all, from start to finish, an exercise in setting Harry up in ways that directly play on his personality flaws (including and especially his chauvinism), but I think it plays at least slightly better since I don't think anyone's there just to get hurt to Teach Harry A Lesson.
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Oct 14, 2019 20:42
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Necrotizer F posted:There were a lot of fatalities of mortal people both male and female, though I can't think of any specifically named non-evil characters who died. Even if we assume Harry and co. got the mortals out, Harry's action still started a war between the White Council and the Red Court and that war claimed thousands of innocent mortal lives while it raged. You had Murphy's partner guy who was recurring from Storm Front die in Fool Moon. Can't remember his name though
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Oct 14, 2019 20:45
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Zore posted:You had Murphy's partner guy who was recurring from Storm Front die in Fool Moon. Can't remember his name though Can't exactly blame that one on Dresden he was pretty explicit about how Murphy shouldn't lock up MacWerewolf. Edit:His name was Ron Carmichael Hub Cat fucked around with this message at 20:55 on Oct 14, 2019 |
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Oct 14, 2019 20:52
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If he hadn't been so coy and needlessly evasive before that, Murphy might have believed him.
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Oct 14, 2019 20:59
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Gnoman posted:If he hadn't been so coy and needlessly evasive before that, Murphy might have believed him. Murphy's actions in the first couple of books are as dumb as the plot demands. Her actions generally only make sense if we are to believe that she thinks that Dresden is the only Wizard or supernatural creature operating in the Chicago area even though she is the head of the Chicago PD's weird poo poo division and that Harry just randomly goes around murdering people in obviously supernatural ways for little to no reason and leaves the bodies lying around Hub Cat fucked around with this message at 21:34 on Oct 14, 2019 |
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Oct 14, 2019 21:22
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Harry also doesn't know if he can tell Murphy about the White Council and only chooses to do so at a point where he's no longer under the Doom of Damocles and is a high-ranking Warden of the council. And even then, she has to pretend not to know anything.
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Oct 14, 2019 22:34
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Cythereal posted:The genre also tends to be really weirdly conservative. I've worked in libraries for most of my career, and I'm not sure I ever crossed paths with an urban fantasy series with a LGBT protagonist (bar the odd male author wanking about a female protagonist who boinks other women but their only actual relationships are with men). You might want to check out Ben Aaronovitch's "Rivers of London" series. While the protagonist isn't LGBTQ, the series as a whole is much more "diversity friendly" than a lot of UF. One of Peter's police superiors is a lesbian with a wife. Another character who has thus far only appeared in one book but will probably show up again was born male but is a female trans. One of the cooler bits of that book was Peter's much older wizard mentor being outraged at the idea that the trans girl had to wait until she was 18 and go before some kind of committee in order to declare her gender as female. He thought such a thing to be "un British." There's just such a sense of casual acceptance of people for who and what they are. I like the Dresden Files series and I am looking forward to the eventual release of Book 16, but there is very much a sense that unless it's specifically noted, you should assume that any character speaking is straight and white.
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Oct 14, 2019 23:19
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Necrotizer F posted:You might want to check out Ben Aaronovitch's "Rivers of London" series. While the protagonist isn't LGBTQ, the series as a whole is much more "diversity friendly" than a lot of UF. One of Peter's police superiors is a lesbian with a wife. Another character who has thus far only appeared in one book but will probably show up again was born male but is a female trans. One of the cooler bits of that book was Peter's much older wizard mentor being outraged at the idea that the trans girl had to wait until she was 18 and go before some kind of committee in order to declare her gender as female. He thought such a thing to be "un British." There's just such a sense of casual acceptance of people for who and what they are. Also a non white male protag who actually shows some depth in regards to his African heritage which is pretty rare in itself.
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Oct 14, 2019 23:23
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On the LGBT diversity front, Tanya Huff has a series (starting with The Enchantment Emporium) that features bisexual leads. Iirc they do both end up with male partners though. Other than that ... yeah, not a lot.
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Oct 14, 2019 23:32
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Yeah Rivers has a pretty diverse cast and a lot of modern outlooks in general and Nightingale never becomes lovely old grumpy man even if he is a bit old fashioned.
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Oct 14, 2019 23:33
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Hub Cat posted:Yeah Rivers has a pretty diverse cast and a lot of modern outlooks in general and Nightingale never becomes weird old grumpy man even if he is a bit old fashioned. The Nightingale is probably my favorite fantasy mentor.
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Oct 14, 2019 23:56
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Hub Cat posted:Yeah Rivers has a pretty diverse cast and a lot of modern outlooks in general and Nightingale never becomes lovely old grumpy man even if he is a bit old fashioned. His grasping at the moral high ground when Peter offers it is a nice moment in the series, and gives me optimism for the rest of the series.
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Oct 15, 2019 00:22
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I really like Nightingale too and there are so many other great and multifaceted characters in the Rivers series even the villains , I'm so bummed the next book got pushed back. Like Nightingale could have easily been a cliche hardass mentor but he pretty much immediately comes around on Peter when he proves that he can do poo poo and they actually have a great relationship. Hub Cat fucked around with this message at 00:34 on Oct 15, 2019 |
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Oct 15, 2019 00:27
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Hub Cat posted:Yeah Rivers has a pretty diverse cast and a lot of modern outlooks in general and Nightingale never becomes lovely old grumpy man even if he is a bit old fashioned. Paraphrased but, quote:Oh, he looks like he just sits there and lets the world pass by around him, but if he sees something useful like a person, phrase or concept, he just reaches out and takes it. navyjack posted:The Nightingale is probably my favorite fantasy mentor. Mine too. BTW, Action at a Distance which focuses a lot on Nightingale and his history, is supposed to be released Nov. 12. While the new novel comes out in February of next year, the thing I'm looking forward is the novella, "What Abigail Did That Summer." Abigail is probably my favorite character in the series. She like a cooler, way more street (and regular) smart version of Hermionie from Harry Potter. If she'd been in that universe, Abigail probably would have curb-stomped Voldemort by Year 3 at the latest.
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Oct 15, 2019 00:40
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Nightingale reminds a lot me of a Latin tutor I had in high school many years ago. He was a product of a prestigious British public school, flew for the RAF during the War, was horribly traumatized by his experiences and never talked about it. Aaronovitch captured some of the best aspects of a generation in Nightingale and reading the Rivers books reminds me a lot of my old tutor (or magister), who passed away years ago.
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Oct 15, 2019 01:16
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Fearless posted:Nightingale reminds a lot me of a Latin tutor I had in high school many years ago. He was a product of a prestigious British public school, flew for the RAF during the War, was horribly traumatized by his experiences and never talked about it. Aaronovitch captured some of the best aspects of a generation in Nightingale and reading the Rivers books reminds me a lot of my old tutor (or magister), who passed away years ago. Aaronovitch was born in 1964. He could easily have had doctors, teachers, parents and parents' friends/associates who were WWII veterans. Maybe that's what he drew on for Nightingale's characterization.
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Oct 15, 2019 02:21
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Necrotizer F posted:Aaronovitch was born in 1964. He could easily have had doctors, teachers, parents and parents' friends/associates who were WWII veterans. Maybe that's what he drew on for Nightingale's characterization. Yeah. I get a real sense that Nightingale is "everything cool about the British Empire and Old Britain" and Peter is everything cool about New Modern Britain, with a contrast line almost as sharply drawn as between Father and Mother Thames.
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Oct 15, 2019 02:26
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Hey did anybody actually watch the full season of The Rook? Curious if they ever actually did anything right, or even entertaining.
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Oct 15, 2019 02:30
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EVGA Longoria posted:This thread kinda has issues with romance in their books. And as soon as you mention a werewolf love interest, hoo boy. There's romance, and there's super-creepy borderline or not so borderline abusive/rapey magical boyfriends but it's all OK because their ~inner wolf~ said it was ok and they're ~soulmates~. Actual romance has very little to do with the kind of stuff that's popping up in the paranormal romance genre.
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Oct 15, 2019 04:01
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Wolpertinger posted:There's romance, and there's super-creepy borderline or not so borderline abusive/rapey magical boyfriends but it's all OK because their ~inner wolf~ said it was ok and they're ~soulmates~. Actual romance has very little to do with the kind of stuff that's popping up in the paranormal romance genre. It was kind of an inverse of this which made me hate Twilight and the character of Bella in particular. Edward kept telling her basically, "You are a food animal to me. Stay the gently caress away from me so I don't literally eat you!" And Bella is pretty much the cow from The Restaurant at the End of the Universe telling him that it's okay and that she wants him to eat her.
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Oct 15, 2019 04:28
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Wolpertinger posted:There's romance, and there's super-creepy borderline or not so borderline abusive/rapey magical boyfriends but it's all OK because their ~inner wolf~ said it was ok and they're ~soulmates~. Actual romance has very little to do with the kind of stuff that's popping up in the paranormal romance genre. Is that supposed to be a reference to the Mercy Thompson series? I thought this misreading was laid to rest.
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Oct 15, 2019 07:38
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Wizchine posted:Is that supposed to be a reference to the Mercy Thompson series? I thought this misreading was laid to rest. I think it's something that shows up in a lot of UF books but seems to be perversely more common in those written by women.
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Oct 15, 2019 08:19
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Wizchine posted:Is that supposed to be a reference to the Mercy Thompson series? I thought this misreading was laid to rest. I've never read Mercy Thompson but this is extremely common still - it's just the amount of other varieties of urban fantasy has exploded over the years. Mercy still seems like it's dancing around it even if it doesn't become as incredibly creepy as some, though.
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Oct 15, 2019 10:18
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Wolpertinger posted:There's romance, and there's super-creepy borderline or not so borderline abusive/rapey magical boyfriends but it's all OK because their ~inner wolf~ said it was ok and they're ~soulmates~. Actual romance has very little to do with the kind of stuff that's popping up in the paranormal romance genre. Yeah, but this thread generally doesn't actually care about this distinction. As soon as someone mentions a romance, or a werewolf, the exact same reactions come out.
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Oct 15, 2019 13:27
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Yeah the Mercy Thompson books are wayyyy better about it than almost any other book in the genre. On another note, I just started Changes in my reread so I’ve got about 15 hours of good stuff to enjoy.
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Oct 15, 2019 14:15
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EVGA Longoria posted:Yeah, but this thread generally doesn't actually care about this distinction. As soon as someone mentions a romance, or a werewolf, the exact same reactions come out. I recall reading some Harlequin romance novels in college in the 80s. The plots varied in details but generally boiled down to "Boy meets girl. Boy emotionally abuses girl and otherwise treats her like poo poo. After some (swiftly overcome) resistance, girl decides she likes being emotionally abused and treated like poo poo. They live in happy dysfunction ever after. I like the Harry Dresden series but even in it, Harry murders the woman he loves. With a knife. Granted that it's at her request/demand. And it's to save their daughter, but still... And in the most recent Alex Verus book, Alex is mind-controlled into abusing the women he love emotionally, physically and brutally. Both series are written in the first person, so we really only get the impact of how wrenching and awful it is for the men in these situations. And apparently UF written by women tends to be even worse, with a lot of "I am Strongjaws, Alpha of the Steeldick clan. You are my soulmate. Let me rape my way into your heart. My inner sexual assault wolf demands it." I admit that this thread has done quite a bit to turn me off of UF written by women because of that. So far the exceptions are Ben Aaronovitch and Mercedes Lackey, who writes the now-continuing SERRAted Edge series involving race-car driving elves and mages who frequently rescue people from bad situations (kidnapped by a cult, being sexually abused by a parent). It's been a while since I read them, but as I recall, rape is presented as being objectively Bad, soulmate bullshit or no.
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Oct 15, 2019 14:53
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Necrotizer F posted:"I am Strongjaws, Alpha of the Steeldick clan. You are my soulmate. Let me rape my way into your heart. My inner sexual assault wolf demands it." This made me laugh, thank you. Also you're describing bad paranormal romance there, not UF.
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Oct 15, 2019 15:00
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I just read all of the Verus series backwards, and it's impressive how consistently plotted and hinted at some of this stuff was 2-3 books before it became explicit to Alex and the reader. The monkey's paw in Cursed (book 2) uses black wires to protect its idiot owner that are quite similar to the Elsewhere figure haunting Deleo and it's many, many books before we get the jinn connections and see the same magic channeled through Drakh and similar looking figures as standalone summoned jinn. Similarly, Anne is freaking everyone out in Taken (book 3) and Onyx scorns a clueless Alex for bringing her as a bodyguard and promises he'll kill her within three steps if she tries anything - he definitely knows about her instant life drain attack, which makes sense given Morden tried to recruit her. And people freaked out about Alex's supposedly out of character attack on Anne in the most recent book, but only the physical aspect was suspect - he deliberately said some horrible stuff to psychologically manipulate her into defending herself against Crystal in Hidden (book 5) and the same to escape Caldera (thanks, delivery truck) in Burned. He has a reputation and a history of suddenly seeming to snap and go full Dark mage when necessary for his survival, as with the gang of adepts he killed by proxy in Chosen. It's controlled, deliberate, and justified from his perspective after exhausting all all other avenues, but it surely doesn't seem like that to those observing. There are also some retcons and inconsistencies where you can see Jacka hadn't planned everything out and fully developed his world in the early books. It's not very believable Alex would be that ignorant of the basics of life magic and shadow worlds in the third book after so many years of magical practice, and the Keepers as a name and organization weren't imagined prior to book 3 - they, and specifically the order of the Shield (which isn't mentioned until book 5 or 6) should have been doing the basilisk raid in book 2, not Talisid's ad hoc black ops mission. Apparatchik Magnet fucked around with this message at 16:01 on Oct 15, 2019 |
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Oct 15, 2019 15:58
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Inspector 34 posted:Hey did anybody actually watch the full season of The Rook? Curious if they ever actually did anything right, or even entertaining. I stopped my hatewatch when the Gestalt romance poo poo kicked into full gear. Have not revisited it. From searching around, there aren’t even episode summaries on online. No one cares enough about the show to write them. There’s a handful of reddit posts flaming the ending but that’s it. Sounds like it got even more nonsensical. There is zero press buzz about it now and no interviews or statements from Starz. I assume it’s not getting renewed. Edit: Found one series finale recap: https://www.thereviewgeek.com/therook-s1e8review/ Lol, it sounds so bad. Myfanwy chose to get her memories wiped for reasons and there’s a love triangle between Gestalt, Myfanwy and Olivia Munn. No Grafters or anything else interesting. Saltpowered fucked around with this message at 14:11 on Oct 16, 2019 |
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Oct 16, 2019 13:56
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Huh, I guess that's what I should have expected. My wife and I watch most things together, so I was thinking about what to watch when she's not around but I guess I'll be trying something new instead of finishing that. The Rook could have made a pretty decent tv show, shame they hosed it all up.
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Oct 16, 2019 18:25
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Hub Cat posted:Sorry I'm an idiot and I skimmed your post quickly. Yeah I was talking about Lydia. I coulda sworn she died. I might be wrong. But yeah I was also talking about the people who all died when Dresden blew up the house and disavowed all responsibility. EDIT: Also I don't think Harry's chaunivism was meant to be a flaw in the early books so much.
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Oct 16, 2019 18:39
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I am 54 pages into Kitty and the Midnight Hour and this is the kind of nonsense I'm loving, and I'll love it even more when she boots Carl out of her life. There's a CIA-adjacent vampire plot, faith healers, and she's taking awesome self-defense classes. Hell yes.
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Oct 16, 2019 18:42
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Imagine dropping the Dresden Files before Mouse shows up.
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Oct 16, 2019 18:45
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Daric posted:Imagine dropping the Dresden Files before Mouse shows up. OTOH imagine never having read Blood Rites. I've been doing a lazy re-listen to Dresden since it's been a while and I've nothing I kinda wanna have in the background but not really focus too hard on, and it occurs to me that book one probably sold the whole tempted by darkness better than any other book did. And then it just sorta... eh? There's moment where someone tells Harry that he's tempted by power, but very little of him actually... seeming like it. Mostly he just gets mad.
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Oct 16, 2019 19:30
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Daric posted:Imagine dropping the Dresden Files before Mouse shows up. Imagine never reading any Iron Druid books. Wait I'm doing this wrong.
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Oct 16, 2019 19:45
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NerdyMcNerdNerd posted:OTOH imagine never having read Blood Rites. Harry's temptation by power isn't really about "Mu-hu-ha-ha! Now I can finally take over the Tri-State Area! I have the power! I am invincible!" Harry gains and seeks the power he does so that he help and protect those he loves as well as innocents unable to help and protect themselves. The best illustration of the temptations for Harry comes in Book 7, Dead Beat. Basically, Harry's "dark side" confronts him with the idea if he doesn't accept help from a certain risky/evil source he'll die. And in dying Harry will not only fail to save those in danger now, he will also be unable to save those who need him later. Therefore, and I'm paraphrasing, "Refusing to do this and then taking into battle is simply an elaborate form of suicide. And that is the act of a coward."
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Oct 16, 2019 23:29
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Dresden pretty consistently does bad things for the "greater good". The road to hell is paved with good intentions and all that. How many times has he received favors in exchange for helping Laura Raith, Marcone, Mab and how often have these favors lead to future problems that meant more favors? Harry isn't the mustache twirling villain looking for Real Ultimate Power, he is the fallen hero that damns himself in a foolish bargain because he thought he was doing the right thing.
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Oct 16, 2019 23:45
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Hub Cat posted:Harry isn't the mustache twirling villain looking for Real Ultimate Power, he is the fallen hero that damns himself in a foolish bargain because he thought he was doing the right thing. It is even engraved on his tombstone! That said, there are moments where Harry approaches a different sort of evil, where he takes pure pleasure in unnecessary violence for the sake of violence - or, at least, violence far beyond what he actually needs to do The Right Thing. The scene in Fool Moon with the pickup truck, his fight with the unnamed-but-obviously-a-xenomorph in Proven Guilty, or the scene with the ghouls in the desert are good examples. Note that in all three Harry gives himself a "What the hell was that?" speech afterward, so this is obviously intentional.
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Oct 17, 2019 01:03
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Gnoman posted:It is even engraved on his tombstone! There is also the former fallen guy that he takes great pleasure in beating the poo poo out of in Death Masks and later has mouse kill in Dead Beat (and the gloating probably let him cast his death curse whoops). Hub Cat fucked around with this message at 01:17 on Oct 17, 2019 |
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Oct 17, 2019 01:13
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Reading just the first book of a lot of UF series seems a really weird way to approach it because the first book is almost always the worst book in most of these series. I mean you'd still end up concluding that Rivers of London was the overall best-written of the bunch, which is correct, but you'd be getting there more by happenstance than anything else.
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Oct 17, 2019 01:33
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