The Muppets On PCP posted:tbf nobody has an answer for rural populations beyond welp move to the city i guess Serf posted:maybe over the course of a century or so. large swathes of the country are only able to function because thousands of people burn gas every day to get to and from work (over distances that you cannot bike and it would be impractical to install public transit). not to mention the coal that is burned to provide power to those homes. we should move people into urban centers and let those areas return to nature This is where people need to be more precise with their language. There's a big difference between rural communities where people live and work, and suburbs where people sleep and watch Netflix in between their 90 minute commutes. We don't have to destroy rural communities or just let them rot. We do have to destroy the sububrbs, or at the very least remove all the incentives and subsidies people get for living in them
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Oct 15, 2019 12:28
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Gripweed posted:This is where people need to be more precise with their language. There's a big difference between rural communities where people live and work, and suburbs where people sleep and watch Netflix in between their 90 minute commutes. We don't have to destroy rural communities or just let them rot. We do have to destroy the sububrbs, or at the very least remove all the incentives and subsidies people get for living in them evacuate the suburbs and the rural areas. i can envision a pretty robust industry of sending people back to those areas for material reclamation tho
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Oct 15, 2019 12:31
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Rural areas are where all the food is grown so evacuating those area is monumentally dumb.
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Oct 15, 2019 13:28
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Patton Oswalt is on The Dollop and the topic is Ronald Reagan.
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Oct 15, 2019 13:39
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AnEdgelord posted:Rural areas are where all the food is grown so evacuating those area is monumentally dumb. the majority of people living in rural areas are not engaged in agricultural production, which has largely been taken over by massive agricorps who can produce huge amounts of food with very little human labor. one of the reasons rural areas are so depressed is that the farming jobs have disappeared, and one person in a gps-directed tractor/combine can do the work of hundreds. i say we just nationalize the agricorps while we're out here evacuating people who have watched their livelihoods disappear over the course of the past century
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Oct 15, 2019 13:40
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AnEdgelord posted:Rural areas are where all the food is grown so evacuating those area is monumentally dumb. you could have one hulking guy with tiny glasses managing the grub farms like in blade runner 2.
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Oct 15, 2019 13:41
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AnEdgelord posted:Rural areas are where all the food is grown so evacuating those area is monumentally dumb. Bingo. Low carbon farming is going to require a lot more labor as we are forced to move away from global industrial-scale monoculture. If anything, there will be a renaissance in rural areas. I know that's hard to swallow when a big part of the climate change schadenfreude is death marching the coal rolling chuds into urban public housing at bayonet point.
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Oct 15, 2019 13:51
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Serf posted:the majority of people living in rural areas are not engaged in agricultural production, which has largely been taken over by massive agricorps who can produce huge amounts of food with very little human labor. one of the reasons rural areas are so depressed is that the farming jobs have disappeared, and one person in a gps-directed tractor/combine can do the work of hundreds. i say we just nationalize the agricorps while we're out here evacuating people who have watched their livelihoods disappear over the course of the past century But nationalizing that just means the government now owns a really unsustainable and carbon heavy ag industry. Ok so Utah owns all the factory cattle farms and Iowa now owns a million acres of corn and a billion tons of roundup and a thousand diesel combines. I’m not pushing for total Luddism, but ag has to return to a more labor intensive model and people need to stay in rural areas. Not all human beings are mentally capable of living in cities without a lot of anxiety or issues anyway.
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Oct 15, 2019 13:52
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the idea that rural living is fundamentally unsustainable is just not true. If you think that we have to forcibly herd all the people into capsule hotels because there is literally no other way to prevent global climate catastrophe, you're just saying that global climate catastrophe is inevitable because no one will accept the solutions you think are necessary.
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Oct 15, 2019 13:58
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space uncle posted:But nationalizing that just means the government now owns a really unsustainable and carbon heavy ag industry. Ok so Utah owns all the factory cattle farms and Iowa now owns a million acres of corn and a billion tons of roundup and a thousand diesel combines. there's no way that its more energy efficient to send thousands of people into the rural areas and provide them with an acceptable standard of living than it is to nationalize the current model and just shift it over to green power sources as best you can in the short term so as to not disrupt food supplies while aiming for total decarbonization. it doesn't take that many people to run things out here, trust me i know firsthand appeals to human nature are stupid, but the inverse of your statement is just as "true"
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Oct 15, 2019 13:59
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Serf posted:there's no way that its more energy efficient to send thousands of people into the rural areas and provide them with an acceptable standard of living than it is to nationalize the current model and just shift it over to green power sources as best you can in the short term so as to not disrupt food supplies while aiming for total decarbonization. it doesn't take that many people to run things out here, trust me i know firsthand You can't just shift the current model over to green power sources. The current model requires tons of pesticides and fertilizers and imported water. The current model requires all livestock to be shot to the gills with antibiotics, and creates pig poo poo lagoons. The current model of agriculture needs to be drastically changed, you can't just unplug it from the coal plant and plug it into some solar panels and have it be basically OK.
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Oct 15, 2019 14:04
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Serf posted:there's no way that its more energy efficient to send thousands of people into the rural areas and provide them with an acceptable standard of living than it is to nationalize the current model and just shift it over to green power sources as best you can in the short term so as to not disrupt food supplies while aiming for total decarbonization. it doesn't take that many people to run things out here, trust me i know firsthand I know first hand too, I also lived in the boonies prior to moving to a big city and then to a small town. I raised livestock and crops on a very small scale. I have relatives that do industrial scale farming. I’m no expert but I understand. If you’re talking about short term solutions then I absolutely agree, but you made it sound like a long term “exclusion zone” surrounding every single major urban center. Complete with actual fallout style scavengers looting Goatfuck, TX for copper and 2x4s. Of course the inverse is true, I agree that people should be able to live in cities if they prefer that lifestyle. Appealing to human nature is not stupid - we must build a society that reflects human sensibilities and not an authoritarian anti-carbon police state. All politics is an appeal to human nature, and telling half the country that they are being evacuated seems like it will be a hard sell.
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Oct 15, 2019 14:05
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Gripweed posted:You can't just shift the current model over to green power sources. The current model requires tons of pesticides and fertilizers and imported water. The current model requires all livestock to be shot to the gills with antibiotics, and creates pig poo poo lagoons. The current model of agriculture needs to be drastically changed, you can't just unplug it from the coal plant and plug it into some solar panels and have it be basically OK. i mean nobody said it would be easy, but we are talking about a drastic reorganization of society. hell, in the episode they discuss why we should probably be cutting back on eating meat, thereby reducing the use of antibiotics and pig poo poo lagoons. and yeah, agriculture itself has massive environmental impacts and long-term we should be looking at urban farming and food production that doesn't rely on utilizing vast tracts of land that could be put to use sucking carbon out of the air with trees space uncle posted:I know first hand too, I also lived in the boonies prior to moving to a big city and then to a small town. I raised livestock and crops on a very small scale. I have relatives that do industrial scale farming. I’m no expert but I understand. If you’re talking about short term solutions then I absolutely agree, but you made it sound like a long term “exclusion zone” surrounding every single major urban center. Complete with actual fallout style scavengers looting Goatfuck, TX for copper and 2x4s. assuming that we survive the climate apocalypse, then sure, we can explore ways that people can return to the pastoral idyll of bygone times. but for the moment, there's no reason to keep people living out here with nothing to do but overdose on opiates or drive long distances to work in jobs that have no relationship to nature half the country does not live in these places. your argument is basically the "impeach this" map that has been getting made fun of for weeks now
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Oct 15, 2019 14:10
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Slanderer posted:who care I mean as a tran it sucks that an incredibly visible and popular tran is also lovely about nonbinary and other non conforming people and is palling up to truscum assholes like buck angel so Me
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Oct 15, 2019 15:05
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Serf posted:i mean nobody said it would be easy, but we are talking about a drastic reorganization of society. hell, in the episode they discuss why we should probably be cutting back on eating meat, thereby reducing the use of antibiotics and pig poo poo lagoons. and yeah, agriculture itself has massive environmental impacts and long-term we should be looking at urban farming and food production that doesn't rely on utilizing vast tracts of land that could be put to use sucking carbon out of the air with trees Yeah I looked it up and it’s only 1/5th, so 60 million. We gotta give em the jobs that have relation to nature.
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Oct 15, 2019 15:05
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space uncle posted:Yeah I looked it up and it’s only 1/5th, so 60 million. we'll see how many make it through the war. but there is probably some room to expand agricultural work as we provide food to other countries
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Oct 15, 2019 15:12
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The only way we're going to beat climate change is the near complete end of agribusiness meat production too. So I'd suggest going vegitarian/vegan now to get used to what's coming. If you want to imagine the future, it's gonna include a lot of lentils.
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Oct 15, 2019 15:55
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i'll have my fill of long pork after the collapse.
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Oct 15, 2019 16:02
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Gripweed posted:You can't just shift the current model over to green power sources. The current model requires tons of pesticides and fertilizers and imported water. The current model requires all livestock to be shot to the gills with antibiotics, and creates pig poo poo lagoons. The current model of agriculture needs to be drastically changed, you can't just unplug it from the coal plant and plug it into some solar panels and have it be basically OK. I mean, no one here is going to have the all-encompassing knowledge of every aspect of what a sustainable post-climate change economy will look like.
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Oct 15, 2019 16:40
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People confuse American exurb/suburb style modern “rural” communities with the only option for rural life. Denser rural communities means we go back to the model where you’re living in town where everything is walkable due to a small size. Because shipping, mass production, and consumer culture must be massively reduced anyway the relative environmental costs of a town of 2k sitting inside the footprint of existing sprawl might still have comparable or better environmental outcomes than just shoving more people into mega cities.
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Oct 15, 2019 16:52
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BENGHAZI 2 posted:I mean as a tran it sucks that an incredibly visible and popular tran is also lovely about nonbinary and other non conforming people and is palling up to truscum assholes like buck angel so it does kinda own that the thread went right from 'who care' about a leftist hanging out with someone who, ya know, sides with people who actively cause harm to people in the community and all to 'now let's have a Serious Debate on if we can force the rurals into cities somehow' when the only context that was brought up in the podcast was in a civil planning sense not in literally 'we're gonna bus people in the rural parts of the state into the cities' ones. Like yea no poo poo the answer is actually to have better, more local focused, city planning and poo poo, why would it ever be 'we have to make mega cities like Judge Dread, for the environment somehow'.
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Oct 15, 2019 17:14
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sexpig by night posted:it does kinda own that the thread went right from 'who care' about a leftist hanging out with someone who, ya know, sides with people who actively cause harm to people in the community and all to 'now let's have a Serious Debate on if we can force the rurals into cities somehow' when the only context that was brought up in the podcast was in a civil planning sense not in literally 'we're gonna bus people in the rural parts of the state into the cities' ones. "Dredd" 
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Oct 15, 2019 17:16
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sexpig by night posted:it does kinda own that the thread went right from 'who care' about a leftist hanging out with someone who, ya know, sides with people who actively cause harm to people in the community and all to 'now let's have a Serious Debate on if we can force the rurals into cities somehow' when the only context that was brought up in the podcast was in a civil planning sense not in literally 'we're gonna bus people in the rural parts of the state into the cities' ones. lmao shut the gently caress up also, i demand that all my protein needs be met by crickets. its still meat
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Oct 15, 2019 17:18
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prefect posted:"Dredd" drat it I just watched that movie
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Oct 15, 2019 17:21
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That this thread is somehow one of the least awful place to talk about the show is a truly dire indictment of the internet.
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Oct 15, 2019 17:22
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sexpig by night posted:it does kinda own that the thread went right from 'who care' about a leftist hanging out with someone who, ya know, sides with people who actively cause harm to people in the community and all to 'now let's have a Serious Debate on if we can force the rurals into cities somehow' when the only context that was brought up in the podcast was in a civil planning sense not in literally 'we're gonna bus people in the rural parts of the state into the cities' ones. I mean I support mega cities but thats because I've read 800 strips of Dredd so
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Oct 15, 2019 17:28
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we should build a series of arcologies to house the planet's population.
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Oct 15, 2019 17:38
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Groovelord Neato posted:we should build a series of arcologies to house the planet's population. Mega Cities
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Oct 15, 2019 17:40
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Groovelord Neato posted:we should build a series of arcologies to house the planet's population. well that's just mega cities with extra steps!
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Oct 15, 2019 17:43
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Gripweed posted:"Why are there no solutions for people like me, the sedentary and lazy?" Exactly what I meant to post, thanks friend.
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Oct 15, 2019 17:44
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I do at least hope we go the arcology route of 'yea it's a mega city, but it looks pretty', yea.
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Oct 15, 2019 17:44
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Episode sucked rear end, it wasn't a discussion just the guest going off in the same way that Tim Faust annoyingly does---with a mix of good sensible points, ones that can be argued/debated and others that are just wtf. There was no discussion of "how do you propose we make get people to accept lifestyle changes when there's an insane uproar over something as trivial as paper straws?". She seemed to take it as a given that people would be thanking them for making them ride bikes and eat meat, which demonstrates a complete disconnect from the grievance politics of today. Nuclear power was never mentioned, which is wild because we do not have the technology for a wind+solar grid (at least not without, say, massive ecological destruction needed to create new enormous reservoirs for hydraulic energy storage).
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Oct 15, 2019 17:45
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yea I also super don't trust people who's environmental plans don't include refurbishing and expanding our nuclear grid because that's typically a giant flag for, yea like you said the kind of people who just assume they'll be greeted as liberators if they show up to rando small towns and say 'ok so now you're gonna bike everywhere'. Our biggest ecological issues are civil planning ones, and actually the green new deal had a lot to deal with that with building refurbishing and a focus on public transport and all.
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Oct 15, 2019 17:49
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One might suspect the people that bring up the latest in trans YouTube-celebrity infighting, in the thread for a podcast known for saying that maybe identity-politics and the culture war is not the primary issue facing the left, of trying to start some poo poo.
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Oct 15, 2019 17:52
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space uncle posted:Another solution is to massively subsidize sustainable farming and to convert large swathes of No, no they wouldn't. You have no concept of how much manual farming sucks, and how much cheap labor it requires. Industrialized farming freed up a huge portion of the labor force to work elsewhere, and trying to reverse that would gently caress us.
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Oct 15, 2019 17:52
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just build new cities like china does and put them in geologically stable areas with plenty of water, like AR/LA/MS/MO
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Oct 15, 2019 17:54
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https://twitter.com/hieronymus_burp/status/1184150197372362753?s=20
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Oct 15, 2019 17:54
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thotsky posted:One might suspect the people that bring up the latest in trans YouTube-celebrity infighting, in the thread for a podcast known for saying that maybe identity-politics and the culture war is not the primary issue facing the left, of trying to start some poo poo. If you don't like and subscribe you aren't a real leftist. When I think of Doing Socialism I think of my extremely normal youtube friends who make videos for people who haven't left the house in years 
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Oct 15, 2019 17:56
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thotsky posted:One might suspect the people that bring up the latest in trans YouTube-celebrity infighting, in the thread for a podcast known for saying that maybe identity-politics and the culture war is not the primary issue facing the left, of trying to start some poo poo. Yes because that's what people are saying that this is the most pressing issue Not like it's someone they've had on the shoe before or anything
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Oct 15, 2019 17:58
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you can't bike to work if you live walking distance from the light rail system in megalopolis east
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Oct 15, 2019 18:00
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