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Taear posted:Who the gently caress knows their neighbours names in a big city that's like Gotham in the film, who interacts with the weird crazy people unless they have no choice?  It's off-topic from the discussion you're commenting on, but her interacting with him in the elevator isn't even part of what the movie presented as his delusion.
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Oct 16, 2019 01:29
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Taear posted:Who the gently caress knows their neighbours names in a big city that's like Gotham in the film, who interacts with the weird crazy people unless they have no choice? I love it when goons tell on themselves.
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Oct 16, 2019 01:40
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I think the political debate depends on how you define "politics". I doubt Arthur was reading the papers or keeping up with the actions of politicians or public policy or even voting. He was losing his mind and no one would help and everyone he hurt were people who were loving him over. He was mostly drove nuts because everyone was so lovely. it's not like he tried to start a political rally when his mental healthcare was cut. He just kept going forward. Unfortunately that leads him to becoming the Joker. The movie is political IMO, but Arthur is not at all involved in making a political statement unless the political statement is "Why is everyone such loving assholes to me, I've lost my goddamn mind." I feel like it's a pretty great movie because so many people irl are dumping a ton of things on it (Joker is an incel??), the director is a hack, there's a lot of various things going on that people in society are dealing with in real life whether it be cut social services, mental illness, inequality, everyone just being loving pissed off about everything, etc. And rightfully so. Also, I've been curious about the reaction to this movie because it's been so weird so I've been reading a lot of reviews from big outlets and they have such bizarre takes. The New Yorker review interprets the teens stealing Arthur's sign and beating him up as a reference to the Central Park Five. WTF? There are a lot of hot takes out there over this movie.
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Oct 16, 2019 06:51
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The real hero of the movie was public transit, especially trains.
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Oct 16, 2019 07:03
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1glitch0 posted:I think the political debate depends on how you define "politics". I doubt Arthur was reading the papers or keeping up with the actions of politicians or public policy or even voting. He was losing his mind and no one would help and everyone he hurt were people who were loving him over. He was mostly drove nuts because everyone was so lovely. it's not like he tried to start a political rally when his mental healthcare was cut. He just kept going forward. Unfortunately that leads him to becoming the Joker. The movie is political IMO, but Arthur is not at all involved in making a political statement unless the political statement is "Why is everyone such loving assholes to me, I've lost my goddamn mind." Thank you. JFC
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Oct 16, 2019 07:20
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1glitch0 posted:I think the political debate depends on how you define "politics". I doubt Arthur was reading the papers or keeping up with the actions of politicians or public policy or even voting. He was losing his mind and no one would help and everyone he hurt were people who were loving him over. He was mostly drove nuts because everyone was so lovely. it's not like he tried to start a political rally when his mental healthcare was cut. He just kept going forward. Unfortunately that leads him to becoming the Joker. The movie is political IMO, but Arthur is not at all involved in making a political statement unless the political statement is "Why is everyone such loving assholes to me, I've lost my goddamn mind." Bolded the only line anyone in this thread should read
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Oct 16, 2019 07:21
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That's a political motivation tho. 
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Oct 16, 2019 08:32
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The Kingfish posted:I love it when goons tell on themselves. It's a real actual thing that people talk about all the time. Eg: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/britons-neighbours-strangers-uk-community-a8373761.html
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Oct 16, 2019 08:35
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Going from house <-> car <-> destination and never being in a shared space is not at all like living in an apartment and no presented figures suggest that it's somehow unthinkable to know someone else's name.
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Oct 16, 2019 08:57
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Do you also stand awkwardly quiet in elevators while staring at the ground with those neighbors who you are on a first name basis with? I’m glad I don’t live in your building.
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Oct 16, 2019 09:38
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Like, I get that the movie’s trying to give the same hypothetical (they could’ve known each other!), I’m just saying it was badly written in a “they were dead the whole time” kinda way, much like all the rest of the “OR IS IT?” poo poo in this movie.
ruddiger fucked around with this message at 10:12 on Oct 16, 2019 |
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Oct 16, 2019 09:46
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ruddiger posted:Do you also stand awkwardly quiet in elevators while staring at the ground with those neighbors who you are on a first name basis with? I’m glad I don’t live in your building.
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Oct 16, 2019 10:47
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1glitch0 posted:(Joker is an incel??) Journalists just learned this word so expect it to be misapplied everywhere for the next couple years. Next year they'll discover volcel, Christianity will make a brief resurgence and Don will get his blue check-mark.
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Oct 16, 2019 13:06
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ruddiger posted:Do you also stand awkwardly quiet in elevators while staring at the ground with those neighbors who you are on a first name basis with? I’m glad I don’t live in your building. Like I know it's different in the US and people chat to strangers more but yea, everyone is totally silent in the lift unless they already know each other. loving loads of people I'd know roughly by sight that you don't talk to, because that's just not what happens. Their interaction just felt like someone who you've seen a few times saying a random sentence to you, not someone who knows your name and would come to chat to you in the way that it happened in the film.
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Oct 16, 2019 15:12
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I mean I think the biggest tell that his relationship was a fantasy was her telling Arthur that he's a funny guy.
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Oct 16, 2019 15:46
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Wild Horses posted:a bit late but this is an extremely bad reading Oh its the worst. Travis is delusional, and a PTSD sufferer. I don't know how anyone can see it being about incels, well I can, provided you want to remove things like context. Anyway. Movie is bad, Phillips is clearly uncertain about what he's trying to say. It points its finger at everything because it doesn't know where to point its finger. Maybe it's society, maybe it's the lack of affordable health care, maybe it's nature vs nurture, maybe it's rich people, maybe it's poor people, maybe it's just mental illness, maybe none of this is actually real, maybe this isn't the real Joker but goes on to inspire the real Joker. Arthur can't just be mentally ill, he has to be the SNL version of it complete with a diary for his wacky writing. It's so completely overwrought in every aspect. Like it's not enough he runs into assholes on the train, it's that they have just come from a performance of A LITTLE NIGHT MUSIC. And I accept this for the CinemaSins gripe that it is, but a comedian having a bad open mic set isn't making it onto TV.
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Oct 16, 2019 16:18
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DrVenkman posted:Arthur can't just be mentally ill, he has to be the SNL version of it complete with a diary for his wacky writing. It's so completely overwrought in every aspect. Like it's not enough he runs into assholes on the train, it's that they have just come from a performance of A LITTLE NIGHT MUSIC. No matter how ambitious they were going be with the mental health and societal stuff, it's still a movie about a comic book character. I think this was both a benefit and a detriment to the movie and ultimately there's only so much poo poo you can have grounded in realism before it still needed to relate back to what he's to become, an outlandish, grandiose, psychopathic clown. Also, it's not that big of a stretch that Travis Bickle is some sort of proto-incel. It's no stain on the original film, but today's incels are not known for being mentally stable and grounded people.
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Oct 16, 2019 16:40
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I loved this movie. I didn't know much about it going in, only having heard Joaquin's performance was great and that it was divisive, with a bunch of Facebook ads showing joker dancing. But I was pleasantly surprised by it being a Scorsese styled taxi driver meets King of comedy pastiche. Hot take, I know, but I hadn't been keeping up with any impressions and that was a genuine surprise to me. Sure it follows those films a little too closely and you can question some of the messages, but I really enjoy it's ambition, since my expectations for comic book movies are quite low (by which I mean there's been some fantastically entertaining blockbusters, but they're not trying to do much beyond that.) Not to mention the premise, which on paper still sounds a bad cash grab. Joker origin story? Yeeuch. Isn't his whole point in Dark Knight that he doesn't have one? Instead this is a fascinating portrayal of mental illness and society at large. If anything, I think the film is worse for having the blatant Wayne / Batman stuff shoed in, which reads as studio meddling to ensure this falls within their greater plans. But I suppose without them what's the point of making it explicitly Batman in the first place.
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Oct 16, 2019 17:07
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DrVenkman posted:Anyway. Movie is bad, Phillips is clearly uncertain about what he's trying to say. It points its finger at everything because it doesn't know where to point its finger. Maybe it's society, maybe it's the lack of affordable health care, maybe it's nature vs nurture, maybe it's rich people, maybe it's poor people, maybe it's just mental illness, maybe none of this is actually real, maybe this isn't the real Joker but goes on to inspire the real Joker. fyi it's rich people
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Oct 16, 2019 17:20
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iamsosmrt posted:
Taxi driver is at its core a movie about loneliness and isolation. Retroactively analyzing it through the meme-concept of incel seems dumb, since what little worth that is found in that concept is inceldom being something tied to internet use. Taxi driver is pre-internet, and more about working lovely jobs in a big city, having no friends, being a racist, being paranoid and so on. Very human poo poo
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Oct 16, 2019 17:24
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"Dumb" is a weird way to put it. It's a film and people are going to get out of it what they want. I feel like this is more of a projection about the awfulness the word "incel" represents but at its core, incels are people who let their real life loneliness and isolation define themselves and be channeled and projected into resentment, anger, misanthropy, paranoia, racism, etc. To my knowledge, the internet doesn't define incels, but it's allowed them to virtually congregate and embolden each other with their hosed up feelings and views which is a big problem.
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Oct 16, 2019 17:43
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Necrothatcher posted:fyi it's rich people I know death of the author and all that but Tom Philips absolutely is a right wing mentalist and I don't think that the film is INTENDED as a leftist thing.
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Oct 16, 2019 17:49
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Taear posted:I know death of the author and all that but Tom Philips absolutely is a right wing mentalist and I don't think that the film is INTENDED as a leftist thing. Well it's inarguably a leftist film so Joker is a perfect example of why death of the author is cool.
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Oct 16, 2019 17:50
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I don’t think I’ve seen anyone mention that Arthur’s joke book/mental health diary is filled with scraps of pornography
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Oct 16, 2019 18:03
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Capntastic posted:I don’t think I’ve seen anyone mention that Arthur’s joke book/mental health diary is filled with scraps of pornography its okay to be horny
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Oct 16, 2019 18:21
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So do you guys feel that this movie was overhyped?
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Oct 16, 2019 18:23
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ruddiger posted:Alfred was talking out of his rear end with that watch the world burn garbage, he couldn't see past his own imperialist ideology. Thank you for reminding me about that. Somehow I've never noticed anyone talk about that? Alfred was working for the Burmese military dictatorship, who was paying local governments to be loyal to them. Then a guy starts stealing the payments and throws them away. How exactly does it track that guy is just doing it for the lulz, and not because he opposes the government? And I don't even think it's "supposed" to be that Alfred is an obtuse imperialist mercenary shithead. I think it's just really bad writing. The Nolan Batman movies are always weird to me, because while yes they have a fundamentally right-wing narrative, they seem like they were genuinely trying to make some stupid mealy-mouthed feel-good points about human goodness or raise "important questions" like about surveillance states and torture. But then the narratives themselves undermine whatever the gently caress they were trying to say in the first place? Like, Fox is upset that they can make people's cellphones create sonar maps of buildings, and will quit unless they destroy the technology after they use it....Except they already used it to map the Chinese office building, kidnap a Chinese national on Chinese soil via Fulton device, take him to America and throw his rear end into a municipal jail. But then due process matters? I'd talk about whether Bane sincerely believes in staging a communist revolution for a few months when he said he just wanted to torture the people for a few months and then detonate a nuclear reactor, but The Dark Knight Rises was so dumb it gives me a headache.
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Oct 16, 2019 18:50
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Rewatching the Nolan Batman films makes it obvious that they are essentially right wing propoganda. It's a more grounded and non-satarical Judge Dredd.
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Oct 16, 2019 18:55
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Capntastic posted:I don’t think I’ve seen anyone mention that Arthur’s joke book/mental health diary is filled with scraps of pornography No easy access to smut so you get what you can get! Also a couple major scenes happen in front of the porno theater.
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Oct 16, 2019 19:26
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Vintersorg posted:No easy access to smut so you get what you can get! What do you get when you deny a mentally ill person pornography, Murray? You get what yiu loving deserve
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Oct 16, 2019 20:10
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i watched a pirated version of this movie and the murky, dark quality of it was really compelling, it's a shame the official version of it is so clean imo
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Oct 16, 2019 20:21
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punk rebel ecks posted:So do you guys feel that this movie was overhyped? It's no Taxi Driver/King of Comedy that's for sure, but the bizarrely disconnected backlash it got from a bunch of media outlets kinda raises it above it's artistic intentions.
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Oct 16, 2019 20:27
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punk rebel ecks posted:Rewatching the Nolan Batman films makes it obvious that they are essentially right wing propoganda. It's a more grounded and non-satarical Judge Dredd. The third film doesn't even pretend to be anything else really. Bane talks the talk of a leftist and then throws it all away
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Oct 17, 2019 00:08
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They aren’t right wing movies, there’s definitely a sense that Batman is a bad person for using his wealth to fight poor people instead of investing into the city. But what they are is very much liberal centrist kinda stories that favour reform rather than revolution. Bruce thinks Gotham can be saved while his enemies think it needs to be burned to the ground for its corruption. If the movies were right wing they wouldn’t have ended with Bruce giving away all his wealth and using the last of his resources in his will to create an orphanage for the disenfranchised and giving his tech to a young man to continue his legacy but seeing as Batman never actually starts a true revolution in Gotham and in many ways just tried to reform the status quo and seeing as he actively stops those who do start revolutions I can’t see the films as being truly leftist -> just spinelessly liberal.
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Oct 17, 2019 02:18
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AFoolAndHisMoney posted:They aren’t right wing movies, there’s definitely a sense that Batman is a bad person for using his wealth to fight poor people instead of investing into the city. But what they are is very much liberal centrist kinda stories that favour reform rather than revolution. Liberalism is a right-wing ideology.
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Oct 17, 2019 03:16
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Me, thinking the girlfriend subplot in Joker is pulled off effortlessly: geez louise I just can't stop making out with all these tweakers who randomly show up at my apartment in clownpaint.
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Oct 17, 2019 03:16
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Prince Myshkin posted:Liberalism is a right-wing ideology. gently caress, I can’t argue with that.
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Oct 17, 2019 03:51
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Tart Kitty posted:Me, thinking the girlfriend subplot in Joker is pulled off effortlessly: geez louise I just can't stop making out with all these tweakers who randomly show up at my apartment in clownpaint. Don’t kinkshame.
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Oct 17, 2019 03:56
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I think noted internet nazi, misogynist, and self-described "intellectual" Stefan Molyneaux is the only person who actually saw Joker and still thinks it's about inceldom. His "theory" is that when Arthur was a kid, his mother's boyfriend was a piece of poo poo who abused both of them. Therefore, Arthur has imprinted that bad guys get laid. Furthermore, since he's a nice guy who doesn't hurt anyone, and he's sexless and lonely, he does the math and realizes he needs to do something bad to alleviate it. That's why the first thing he does after he kills the three guys is go to his girlfriends apartment and passionately kiss her, because he's now suitably bad to be worthy of sex. That's why she started liking Arthur in the first place, because he started doing things a bad guy would do, Molyneaux thinks. Yes, ignoring how thin that theory is already, he also doesn't realize that their relationship was imaginary.
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Oct 17, 2019 04:12
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I have never watched Taxi Driver or King of Comedy and the last DC movie I sort of liked was... Justice League I guess...? Loved the Nolan trilogy too. I'm not into comic books but I have watched all of MCU so far. Joaquin Phoenix is okay I guess. Should I see this or should I just wait for it to hit streaming?
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Oct 17, 2019 04:15
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