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Barnier will probably come out with something more conciliatory later, it's a one-two punch they've used a bunch of times before.
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Oct 17, 2019 14:44
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The left is just as vulnerable as the right to the following forms of antisemitism 1. The capital class has a vested interest in keeping the working class down (and the jews are all rich) 2. The state of Israel should not exist (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 17, 2019 14:47
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3. pronunciation of bagel
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Oct 17, 2019 14:49
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As ever, oppose racism lads
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Oct 17, 2019 14:49
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Okay, so I’ve been thinking about it, and I’ve come to the conclusion that Labour voting for the deal with a referendum attached might be a very good idea. Having a referendum that the Tories vote for completely undercuts the “people vs parliament” angle, which is a concern if the Tories are dragged into extending or especially if we have a unity government that looks pretty undemocratic (even if it isn’t really). Let’s assume Remain wins. What happens then? Well, it will be an apocalypse for the Tories. They will have completely failed to deliver their raison d'etre for four years. Morale in the party and trust of them outside the party will completely collapse. Johnson will almost certainly be forced to resign, cementing himself as the worst PM of all time. It’s likely the party will split. Meanwhile, Labour will be ascendant. They’ll have just finished fighting a referendum they can take an unambiguous and enthusiastic position on, and will be able to fight an election entirely on their policies with Brexit left behind. They’ll very likely win, possibly in a landslide. If that happens Corbyn will go down as one of the greatest political figures in history. Of course, the problem is that we can’t assume Remain wins. It’s risky. But not only are demographics better for Remain in a 2nd ref, but the new Tory deal is awful and not supported by the DUP, Kate Hoey or even Farage. The ERG hate it, they only support it because they fear it’s the only way to get Brexit. And arguing against a concrete proposal will be a lot easier than the vagueness of the first referendum.
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Oct 17, 2019 14:50
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I was wondering about putting on a Brexit preparation event/workshop/meeting for people in my town to talk about Brexit and maybe put some plans together in case of No Deal - things like if there are stockpiles of food/medicine, what to do if there's flooding here but all the emergency services are in major cities at supermarkets, that kind of thing. I don't want it to worry anyone or attract people who are going to go on about referendums or 'project fear', but on the other hand it could help people who are concerned and if there is a NDB, there's some sort of plan in place? Or is it not worth bothering about as everyone has access to spuds and clean water?
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Oct 17, 2019 14:52
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OwlFancier posted:But the overlap of antisemitism/anitcapitalism due to antisemites consciously co-opting the messaging is a much older problem and one to watch out for anyway. Just keep an eye out as you normally would. Did you know that capitalists poison wells? Wait gently caress, I was trying to start a conspiracy, not a real problem. Capitalists consume human blood. poo poo. Capitalists nail tiny pieces of bread to the wall. Namtab posted:2. The state of Israel should not exist 
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Oct 17, 2019 14:52
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Tesseraction posted:Unemployment figures are too low by about 3 million people, according to the OECD https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/oct/17/unemployment-figures-should-be-millions-higher-says-research The Tories have been massively overcooking the stats? You don't say 
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Oct 17, 2019 14:53
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Tesseraction posted:Unemployment figures are too low by about 3 million people, according to the OECD https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/oct/17/unemployment-figures-should-be-millions-higher-says-research A great way to lower uneployment numbers - make the dole so poo poo that noone who has a choice in the matter will be keen to take it up.
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Oct 17, 2019 14:54
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justcola posted:I was wondering about putting on a Brexit preparation event/workshop/meeting for people in my town to talk about Brexit and maybe put some plans together in case of No Deal - things like if there are stockpiles of food/medicine, what to do if there's flooding here but all the emergency services are in major cities at supermarkets, that kind of thing. I don't want it to worry anyone or attract people who are going to go on about referendums or 'project fear', but on the other hand it could help people who are concerned and if there is a NDB, there's some sort of plan in place? You're at least a month late to make a real impact assuming we no deal somehow and otherwise we're in an extension or 'bad but not no deal bad' situation.
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Oct 17, 2019 14:56
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Tesseraction posted:Unemployment figures are too low by about 3 million people, according to the OECD https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/oct/17/unemployment-figures-should-be-millions-higher-says-research One of my long-running concerns about a future Labour government is that one of two things could very plausibly happen: a) They keep cooking the unemployment figures in the same way as the current government, and the media runs with a narrative of Corbyn being dishonest. b) They stop twisting the figures and suddenly unemployment has 'risen'; cue media campaign about Labour putting everyone out of work.
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Oct 17, 2019 14:57
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Comrade Fakename posted:Okay, so I’ve been thinking about it, and I’ve come to the conclusion that Labour voting for the deal with a referendum attached might be a very good idea. Having a referendum that the Tories vote for completely undercuts the “people vs parliament” angle, which is a concern if the Tories are dragged into extending or especially if we have a unity government that looks pretty undemocratic (even if it isn’t really). How do we not get hosed over with Boris Johnson in charge of administering the Deal vs. Remain referendum? Parliament can't even trust him to not do no deal Brexit.
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Oct 17, 2019 14:57
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Also I have, like a particular problem with ethno/relgious nationalist states for the same reason I don't like the loving weirdos who go around screaming about how britain should be a homeland for the british, because unless you define those two things tautologically what they're actually saying is just plain old racism. Ethnic/religious nationalism is not compatible with a state that even remotely works for the people that live in it, because it necessitates the exclusion of a lot of the people who live in it. And that's working off the assumption that states can be good things. Even if you think that you can't think ethnic/religious nationalism is good unless you're a fascist.
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Oct 17, 2019 14:57
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Comrade Fakename posted:Okay, so I’ve been thinking about it, and I’ve come to the conclusion that Labour voting for the deal with a referendum attached might be a very good idea. Having a referendum that the Tories vote for completely undercuts the “people vs parliament” angle, which is a concern if the Tories are dragged into extending or especially if we have a unity government that looks pretty undemocratic (even if it isn’t really). Nah Labour should support an amendment requiring a referendum on the deal but then still oppose the deal - if they vote in support of the deal and then immediately come out in opposition to it then they just get painted as undemocratic traitors.
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Oct 17, 2019 15:00
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Guavanaut posted:It has as much right to exist as any other state. imagine i had put (uniquely) in there
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Oct 17, 2019 15:01
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OwlFancier posted:Also I have, like a particular problem with ethno/relgious nationalist states for the same reason I don't like the loving weirdos who go around screaming about how britain should be a homeland for the british, because unless you define those two things tautologically what they're actually saying is just plain old racism. Ethnic/religious nationalism is not compatible with a state that even remotely works for the people that live in it, because it necessitates the exclusion of a lot of the people who live in it. And that's working off the assumption that states can be good things. Even if you think that you can't think ethnic/religious nationalism is good unless you're a fascist.
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Oct 17, 2019 15:11
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chestnut santabag posted:Nah Labour should support an amendment requiring a referendum on the deal but then still oppose the deal - if they vote in support of the deal and then immediately come out in opposition to it then they just get painted as undemocratic traitors. Mass abstention might work if they're really scared about the EU's willingness to extend.
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Oct 17, 2019 15:16
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Darth Walrus posted:Mass abstention might work if they're really scared about the EU's willingness to extend. Is this meant to sound like teenage contraception talk.
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Oct 17, 2019 15:20
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 https://twitter.com/Nigel_Farage/status/1184834973662175234
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Oct 17, 2019 15:34
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dude https://twitter.com/MarkDiStef/status/1184839210940948480
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Oct 17, 2019 15:36
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https://twitter.com/mattholehouse/status/1184833950193213441?s=21
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Oct 17, 2019 15:38
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I regret to inform you that Doctor Masturbation has deleted his twitter.
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Oct 17, 2019 15:38
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https://twitter.com/RickOShea321/status/1184793872314130432?s=19
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Oct 17, 2019 15:41
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OwlFancier posted:I don't think you're at a particularly large risk of people already on the left going that way, because they're disinclined to trust the papers anyway, you have to be or you can't form left politics. I think this is basically true, and I don't think a consequence of the terminally irresponsible way the media has handled this is that people on the left get driven to being antisemitic. Even though genuine idiots in the labour movement do exist and really are corbyn's worst possible defenders. I like to think the message has pretty much been hammered home now that antisemitism is seriously bad PR for Labour and so needs to have tough vigilant action against it. But what does actually happen is that through the amplification of genuine but marginal antisemitism the media are essentially asking the jewish community just how much of any racism against themselves they're willing to tolerate before they become labour voters; the point is not to actually demonstrate the mechanisms of antisemitism nor even to actually talk about it in a clarifying way at all (what materially has changed, how it fits into other racisms). The point is just to instil fear in a community with inherited trauma!! And call me a conspiracy theorist but that's bad but definitely deliberate. And I have no idea how to respond to that.
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Oct 17, 2019 15:42
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Lmao that’s even better than Rudd at that hustings thing that turned into complete farce
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Oct 17, 2019 15:55
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lmaoquote:Campaigning anti-Brexit QC Jolyon Maugham has now lodged his petition at the court of session in Edinburgh, which essentially tries to ban parliament from debating the new Brexit deal, on the basis that it is illegal, and which he anticipates will be heard tomorrow. the bill might be hosed by tomorrow afternoon
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Oct 17, 2019 15:58
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As much as I hate the crippling anxiety around brexit, this really is the best timeline if you’re looking to see Joris Bohnson get roundly hosed wherever he goes
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Oct 17, 2019 16:00
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Tesseraction posted:lmao I don't see how that can work. Parliament is sovereign and can't be bound by past parliaments so if they pass a law that contradicts a previous law then tough poo poo previous law
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Oct 17, 2019 16:18
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Guavanaut posted:I regret to inform you that Doctor Masturbation has deleted his twitter.
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Oct 17, 2019 16:19
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Qwertycoatl posted:I don't see how that can work. Parliament is sovereign and can't be bound by past parliaments so if they pass a law that contradicts a previous law then tough poo poo previous law Parliament can't pass something that contravenes previous law without first repealing the previous law. So yes, they could get around this... by repealing that provision from S55. Guess how many people in parliament would specifically repeal a provision *designed* to protect the union?
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Oct 17, 2019 16:23
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Latest update from my credulous melt of an MP 
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Oct 17, 2019 16:45
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Tesseraction posted:Parliament can't pass something that contravenes previous law without first repealing the previous law. So yes, they could get around this... by repealing that provision from S55. If they pass two laws that are incompatible the latter is deemed to repeal the former to the extent necessary for then to co-exist, with no need for language in the latter explicitly saying that the former is repealed.
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Oct 17, 2019 16:48
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Namtab posted:The left is just as vulnerable as the right to the following forms of antisemitism I dunno about that second point. I don't think Israel should exist. I believe in a 1 state solution and while you could call it Israel if you so wish it wouldn't be the current state of Israel because it wouldn't be a state explicitly regarded as "the Nation-State of the Jewish People". Is it antisemitic to say that I think it was a mistake to allow the creation of the state of Israel? Because that seems anti-Zionist to me but I don't even know any more.
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Oct 17, 2019 16:55
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forkboy84 posted:Is it antisemitic to say that I think it was a mistake to allow the creation of the state of Israel? Because that seems anti-Zionist to me but I don't even know any more. It is not, but many people will tell you otherwise.
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Oct 17, 2019 17:06
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The deal will pass on the backs of Labour melts and spineless ex-tory MPs
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Oct 17, 2019 17:06
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forkboy84 posted:I dunno about that second point. I don't think Israel should exist. I believe in a 1 state solution and while you could call it Israel if you so wish it wouldn't be the current state of Israel because it wouldn't be a state explicitly regarded as "the Nation-State of the Jewish People". Whenever labour people who believe the conspiracies have gone on at me about it they always say that the definition of anti-Semitism being pushed for everyone else to use (or else) redefines any criticism of Israel as anti-Semitism. Which is apparently the reason for accusing labour left of anti-Semitism, as they opposed its adoption by the party because it makes any criticism of Israel problematic.
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Oct 17, 2019 17:08
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Midnight- posted:The deal will pass on the backs of Labour melts and spineless ex-tory MPs nah Labour aren't going to vote for a deal when they're expecting a GE in a couple of months and the ex-Tories all hate Boris, they're not going to do him a favour now
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Oct 17, 2019 17:12
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Jewish Voice for Labour report on Ellman and Riverside LPquote:... Full report here: https://www.jewishvoiceforlabour.org.uk/article/louise-ellman-and-the-war-on-riverside-labour-party-jvl-exclusive/
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Oct 17, 2019 17:15
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Tarnop posted:Latest update from my credulous melt of an MP Mines clear, at least.  
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Oct 17, 2019 17:16
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forkboy84 posted:I dunno about that second point. I don't think Israel should exist. I believe in a 1 state solution and while you could call it Israel if you so wish it wouldn't be the current state of Israel because it wouldn't be a state explicitly regarded as "the Nation-State of the Jewish People". Even if someone tells you that it is, you can tell them your good Jewish-Israeli friend Miftan said that it isn't.
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Oct 17, 2019 17:28
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