|
The Golux posted:Bide may be the worst move to be a TM but at least things can LEARN it (anything that can learn TMs, in fact). Softboiled is literally only learnable by Chansey (and Mew). Egg Bomb is only learnable by Chansey, Exeggcute, and Exeggutor (and Mew). None of those moves are learned by ANYTHING naturally in Gen 1. I can see the sort of game-design sense behind moves being TM only, especially if they're gym leader TMs. Gen 1 in particular has a lot of ahhh design quirks, we'll say, about that. Like Normal types tend to (not always, though) have fairly wide movepools, likely to make up for their lack of SE hits. A number of Pokemon are like 95% normal & status moves. Some Pokemon don't get stab at all, like this update's Sandslash, without TMs which I could see being a left over from even earlier in development when they were deciing how type distribution was like; could easily se the "elemental" types meant to be special. We talked about how bug types may as well have not been a real type until gen 4-5, and part of that I think is they were designed to be kind of poo poo and the "good" ones (Scyther, Pinsir I guess) were rare & didn't even get stuff to go with their typing. It was a lot moreeeee "gamey"? If you get what I mean? But jsut resulted in kind of a mess that still leaves stains in future gens 20 years later
|
#
?
Oct 18, 2019 01:27
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 11, 2024 03:34 |
|
|
The Golux posted:There are other moves that are weirdly TM-only in Gen 1, all of the gym leader TMs are that way I think (Bide, Bubblebeam, Thunderbolt, Mega Drain, Toxic, Psywave, Fire Blast, Fissure).
|
|
#
?
Oct 18, 2019 03:40
|
|
|
The bit where Leader TMs give wholly exclusive moves ends in Generation 3, where 5 of the 8 leader TMs could be learned naturally by Pokemon. However it hasn't completely gone away, to date every generation has had some moves that were TM exclusive, and at least one of them is always earned from a Gym Leader or from the equivalent (You get Smart Strike in Gen 7 after clearing the Grass Trial). I wouldn't be surprised if this remains true in Sword and Shield as well. Really, though, it stopped being a problem in Gen 5 when they made TMs unlimited use like they always should have been.
|
|
#
?
Oct 18, 2019 05:10
|
|
|
The fall of Technical Machine DRM is the single greatest thing to happen to pokemon.  HMs were literally generations ahead of their time.
|
|
#
?
Oct 18, 2019 05:41
|
|
|
Gen V is, of course, when they started trimming down the list of TM exclusive moves to about three per generation. ...Also shout-out to Thunderbolt being a TM-only move (besides Pikachu in Yellow), when Thundershock and Thunder weren't locked to TMs.
|
|
#
?
Oct 18, 2019 06:08
|
|
|
Route 7: It Managed To Hang In There I forgot that you need to save in a Pokemon Center so once again our dramatic stance is interrupted by practicality and technical limitations.  Misty's Castle isn't going to be quite as tough as Brock's, but we've still got a bit of a struggle ahead of us. Let's take a look at what we've got to work with.    A decent spread, if I do say so myself.     BORT, JABLES, and DOG all got pretty signficant boosts out of evolving, gainin 20-30 points across the board. Even TATERS got a small boost from the extra EVs, though he's starting to look a little lackluster.    Our first opponent is a Fisher, man. And no, he's not bringing 6 Magikarp. Still one, gotta respect the tradition, but the rest of his team is a decent spread of Water-types with solid moves. Special shoutout goes to Poliwag, who can get lucky with sleep stalling, drop someone's Special with Psychic, and start piling on Amnesia, though I've never seen him really go all in on that strategy.     Not when he can just kick my rear end with Tentacool. Decent speed and Wrap is annoying enough, but that Hydro Pump is coming off of Tentacool's slightly absurd base Special of 100. It takes a solid chunk out of anyone it hits, and even one-shots TATERS. That Poison typing proves to be a boon for it, as well, covering up what would otherwise be a Grass weakness. The chink in its armor is its severely lacking Defense, which lets DOG or TUBE take it out in just a couple hits.   Speaking of, TUBE is definitely our ace in the hole here, with enough bulk to shrug off most of the incoming hits, and a high enough Attack that he doesn't mind having to spam Bite to deal any damage.   TATERS is almost always dead weight, taking too much damage from everything to really be worth the type advantage, while BORT is rarely MVP, but always pulls his own weight. Losses: 3    Just like last time, the second member of the castle has an attack gimmick. Jr. Girl's is accuracy drops, and her team is a land of contrasts. Diglett and Kadabra can easily sweep our whole team, and Voltorb can Explode, which takes out just about everything. Jigglypuff and Pidgey are nothing we haven't seen before, though, and Seadra is... alright.   Her team would be much more dangerous if she actually used her offensive moves, though, as she insists on spamming debuffs so much that it's trivial to just change Pokemon and clear them.     There's a reason Double Team is banned in competitive but Flash isn't. Losses: 0    Swimmer is actually significantly less dangerous than either of the opponents preceeding him. He's got some sleep spammers, which isn't great, but none of his members have attacks dangerous to really scare me. Honestly, it kind of looks like a potential team for me. Is this a mirror match? ...nah, can't be, we chose Kabuto.   Without the stats to back up the crappy moves, and without the moves to back up the crappy stats, and no real tactics to speak of, winning is simply a matter of overpowering him. I don't even lose anyone to him...   Except when I try to style on him by exploding WEEST and get smacked down for my hubris.  Losses: 0    And now, after two pushovers, it's time for Misty. Blastoise and Starmie are shitwreckers, and Staryu and Seel have the bulk to make their recovery intimidating and irritating, respectively. Horsea and Psyduck aren't exactly stellar, but they've got just enough oomph to finish off something softened up by her other members.  I'm really not looking forward to this. Attempt #1, Play-By-Play:   I open with BORT, as aside from Seel's Blizzard and Staryu's Psychic, nothing she's got has the threat to immediately KO with no recompense. She starts with Blastoise, which is, while not great, also not the worst. In reserve we have TATERS, mostly for Thunder Wave, and TUBE, because TUBE has been an MVP and nobody besides Starmie can really threaten him.     Things start out pretty well for us, with a critical Vine Whip taking off half its HP, after Blastoise's Seismic Toss only took off a third of ours. A bit of help from a damage calculator confirms that was her best attack for the situation, with even Dig on average doing slightly less than the guaranteed 50.  Second round goes about the same, though we're not lucky enough to get two crits in a row. I decide to switch out for TATERS here. Another Seismic Toss will KO Bort, and I'd like to hold onto him. TATERS's crap defenses don't matter when the attack does fixed damage. Then, Misty will likey go for a Dig, and I can switch again into TUBE.   ...or that could happen.  Starmie. poo poo. Well, I'm glad I held onto BORT, but it's faster than him, and at his low HP, she might still be able to take him out, and then TUBE is going to disintegrate to a Thunder. TATERS is slower than Starmie, too, but I decide to go for the Thunder Wave, because why not. It's better than losing BORT on the switch.   You have no idea how excited and relieved I was to see that Speed drop, because it meant that TATERS survived by a hair...     And got off the Thunder Wave! We might still be in this. TATERS goes for one more Thundershock, it might do enough to soften Starmie up for BORT.  Or that could happen.   I'm not gonna look a gift horse in the mouth. Another Thundershock!  What.   What.   That'll do, TATE. That'll do.     With that much softening up, it's a sure thing that BORT can finish it off. We've still got one Pokemon left to fight, though. Staryu could end this string of absurd luck right here, with a Psychic for BORT and a Thunderbolt for TUBE.   This might be the first time I've ever had a battle in Stadium with this much absurd luck in my favor. I think this is the part in the anime episode where Misty loses because Psyduck comes out instead of whoever she really wanted.   Psyduck valiantly fights on, throwing out a Body Slam that could crit or paralyze us and bring BORT down, but even that wouldn't save it from getting its head bitten off by Gyarados.   Or from BORT being a badass.    Losses: 0(?!) Total Losses: 3 So, in conclusion, the first trainer beat us fair and square several times, the second and third were pushovers, and then Misty got dunked because BORT got a lucky crit, TATERS survived with a sliver of HP, Starmie hit the one and a half percent chance to be fully paralyzed three rounds in a row, and Misty chose Psyduck as her third instead of something useful that could still have wrecked our poo poo. If the next update doesn't show up, assume I got hit by a meteor or something. Next Time on Multi-Track Battling: Diggle-dig, diggle-dig, diggle-dig! girl dick energy fucked around with this message at 23:34 on Oct 27, 2019 |
|
#
?
Oct 18, 2019 07:57
|
|
|
Better to be lucky than good.
|
|
#
?
Oct 18, 2019 08:19
|
|
|
That part where you got your poo poo pushed in because you tried to style on the swimmer with a geodude? That's what happened with Misty and the psyduck.
|
|
#
?
Oct 18, 2019 09:29
|
|
|
What luck you had during that Misty fight. For reference the chance of Paralysis to proc is 25%. The chance of that happening 3 times in a row is 1/64. That'll do indeed. 
|
|
#
?
Oct 18, 2019 09:57
|
|
|
PMush Perfect posted:Next Time on Multi-Track Battling: Diggle-dig, diggle-dig, diggle-dig! TRIO TRIO TRIO
|
|
#
?
Oct 18, 2019 17:30
|
|
|
I'm kinda amazed that Type advantage and crit from a similarly-leveled pokemon only reduces her mon to 1/2 HP. It's not like the Blastoise was in the 200s either
|
|
#
?
Oct 18, 2019 18:18
|
|
|
SSNeoman posted:I'm kinda amazed that Type advantage and crit from a similarly-leveled pokemon only reduces her mon to 1/2 HP. It's not like the Blastoise was in the 200s either
|
|
#
?
Oct 18, 2019 18:22
|
|
|
SSNeoman posted:I'm kinda amazed that Type advantage and crit from a similarly-leveled pokemon only reduces her mon to 1/2 HP. It's not like the Blastoise was in the 200s either Vine Whip in gen 1 has 35 base power. Its a pretty bad move
|
|
#
?
Oct 18, 2019 18:30
|
|
|
Also I'm not sure how EV trained the pokemon you're fighting are but in Gen 1 and 2 pokemon who are tend to be way bulkier than later generations since there's no limit on EVs so everyone has full bulk investment.
|
|
#
?
Oct 18, 2019 18:52
|
|
|
Speaking of gen 1 stuff from this update: it's always struck me as kind of strange to me how body slam just kind of vanishes after gen 1. Like it's still technically in the game, but you never see it.
|
|
#
?
Oct 18, 2019 19:07
|
|
|
FoolyCharged posted:Speaking of gen 1 stuff from this update: it's always struck me as kind of strange to me how body slam just kind of vanishes after gen 1. Mostly because it kinda sucks compared to Return? There are some mons who use it with Serene Grace but in general Normal moves kinda go out of vogue once Pokemon start getting real movepools in later gens.
|
|
#
?
Oct 18, 2019 19:15
|
|
|
Huh, I didn't remember return appearing that early in the series. I'm not really talking about competitive play though. It goes from a near universal tm to only appearing on pokemon that learn it natively. I can't think of any time I've seen an enemy trainer use it, so unless you use nidoqueen or something you'll never see it. Even garbage like rage and the heavily nerfed fire spin/wrap show up more than it does after gen 1.
|
|
#
?
Oct 18, 2019 19:33
|
|
|
Return is g2, because friendship evolutions come from there.
|
|
#
?
Oct 18, 2019 19:56
|
|
|
FoolyCharged posted:Huh, I didn't remember return appearing that early in the series. To an extent that may be deliberate as Body Slam more or less got functionally replaced by Return as a TM. Both have similar roles as powerful Normal-type moves that can be taught by TM, but barring Paralysis procs Return is just kind of better. Return is stronger and can be taught to literally every pokemon that can use TMs except Pyukumuku for some reason.
|
|
#
?
Oct 18, 2019 20:15
|
|
|
Because Pyuk is another iteration on Shuckle, meant to defend and be tricky only.
|
|
#
?
Oct 18, 2019 20:53
|
|
|
Dumbest restriction on TMs is Regigigas not being able to learn anything to help stall out Slow Start. Not even Rest.
|
|
#
?
Oct 18, 2019 22:13
|
|
|
Game Freak is dedicated to making sure Regigigas will never be good.
|
|
#
?
Oct 18, 2019 22:25
|
|
|
ah, yes, god forbid the thing you need to capture three other legendaries (that, at the time of release, only existed in the previous set of games) to get is usable
|
|
#
?
Oct 18, 2019 22:30
|
|
|
PMush Perfect posted:Dumbest restriction on TMs is Regigigas not being able to learn anything to help stall out Slow Start. Not even Rest. Regigigas is the only Pokemon (who can learn TMs) who cannot learn Protect. He used to have taht distinction with Rest but gen 7 joiend him with Komala, all 4 Tapu & Magearna ...actually weirdly gen 7 has a LOT of pokemon that can't learn otherwise universal TMs. 9 pokemon can't learn Facade, 6 Pokemon can't learn Swagger, 3 pokemon cant learn Double Team, 2 pokemon can't learn Confide....all of them gen 7??
|
|
#
?
Oct 18, 2019 22:39
|
|
|
At least "thing that is always asleep can't learn Rest" makes sense. The rest of that, though... 
|
|
#
?
Oct 19, 2019 00:27
|
|
|
LiefKatano posted:ah, yes, god forbid the thing you need to capture three other legendaries (that, at the time of release, only existed in the previous set of games) to get is usable It’s loving insane how much they REALLY wanna cockslap regigigas into being absolutely unusable. I mean, for fucks sake GF, let it have a hidden ability! Give it Truant or SOMETHING. Anything is pretty much better than Slow Start. gently caress, I’ll take DEFEATIST over slow start, that ability absolutely crippled archen and archeops!
|
|
#
?
Oct 19, 2019 08:07
|
|
|
Comedy answer: Main ability is Slow Start, hidden ability is Emergency Exit.
|
|
#
?
Oct 19, 2019 08:14
|
|
|
If they wanted to fix Slow Start they would have done it years ago. Game Freak almost never goes back to balance old Pokemon or abilities. They just make new stronger ones. Maybe you could fix Slow Start by making it double defense and special defense as well as having attack and speed.
|
|
#
?
Oct 19, 2019 10:22
|
|
|
I mean, even if you can remove Slow Start, with moves like Gastro Acid, Worry Seed, or Skill Swap, or chicanery with Mummy, Regigigas isn't that great; although it can hit hard physically, it's Speed isn't high enough to consistently hit first (unless you want to give a Pokemon that you want to never switch out a Choice Scarf), and the desire to prevent stalling out Slow Start means it can't really make use of it's decent bulk. That said, if Smogon Doubles was more popular, or it lost its Restricted status in VGC, I could definitely see people trying to make it work. If I were to try and "fix" Slow Start, I'd probably have the drop lessen by 10% each turn, it would still be weak when first sent out, but it wouldn't have to wait 5 turns to be usable.
|
|
#
?
Oct 19, 2019 11:34
|
|
|
In altered emerald, the Regi family has “Armor Tuning,” meaning they gain a stat up in the physical / special defense they were just hit in, and a decrease in the other. It’s really cool, like a super Stamina.
|
|
#
?
Oct 19, 2019 13:33
|
|
|
If Slow Start only effected speed and not also attack, Regigigas becomes a pretty decent sidegrade to Snorlax. 110/110/110 defenses are super good even with a mediocre defensive typing and no recovery and 160 attack with a good movepool is fantastic.
|
|
#
?
Oct 19, 2019 15:08
|
|
|
Once I'm done typing way too many words in the new Ocarina of Time Randomizer thread, would anyone be interested in a micro update about how you ballpark the impact of stats and move power?
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2019 09:07
|
|
|
Slow Start also utterly kills Regigigas since the countdown resets every time you switch out. In singles, that basically just machine guns Regigigas to death. Switching is a lot less common in doubles, but it's still there, and just drags it down.PMush Perfect posted:Once I'm done typing way too many words in the new Ocarina of Time Randomizer thread, would anyone be interested in a micro update about how you ballpark the impact of stats and move power? Sure. Though it seems pretty simple enough to estimate.
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2019 09:23
|
|
|
PMush Perfect posted:Once I'm done typing way too many words in the new Ocarina of Time Randomizer thread, would anyone be interested in a micro update about how you ballpark the impact of stats and move power?
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2019 22:09
|
|
|
Yes both because I'm interested in if its different in gen 1 and also because damage variance is one of those things I forget about 90% of the time until it results in someone living with a sliver of health and then killing me in turn
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2019 23:49
|
|
|
PokeStop 3: Napkin Math I can't be the first person who's wanted to figure out how damage is calculated...  And then run face-first into that. Now, all things considered, this is one of the simpler mathematical formulas, but there's a heck of a lot of multiplication and division involved. So, how do you figure out what Pokemon or move is the strongest when you don't want to pull out a calculator (damage or otherwise)? First, we need a baseline, something to compare everything else to. Let's say our baseline is a Level 50 Pokemon, using a 100 BP move (without STAB), with a base stat of 100 in the relevant stat, hitting a Level 50 Pokemon with no weakness or resistance to the attack, and a base 100 in the relevant stat. We'll also assume they're about equally well-trained, with equal IVs. An actual example of this situation would be a Tauros using Earthquake on a Blastoise, or a Gastly using Dream Eater on a Gyarados. Not super common, but close to a lot of situations that are. The max damage on this attack is... 46, barring a crit or some shenanigans. For easy math, let's round it up to 50, and then just chunk about 10% off the final number. So, our totally generic Easy Math Attack has a max damage of 50. Now we can just throw napkin math at that 50. If Tauros used a move with a base power of 80 instead, that's gonna do about 80% of the damage, or about 38, after the chunk. Same if the base stat of the Pokemon was 80, instead, or if the defense of the Pokemon was 120. Then, once we're done, we chunk off another 10%, because we rounded up earlier. Minimum is still 85% of maximum. Let's complicate it a bit. What about a Machamp (130 Atk) using Body Slam (85 BP) on a Weezing (120 Def)? We start with the EMA of 50 damage. First, we add about 30% from the 30% higher Attack (65 damage), lose 15% from the 15% weaker move (56ish), and another 20% because Weezing's defense is 20% higher (45ish). Chunk off another 10%, we get a max of 40ish, and a min of 33ish. Machamp Body Slam vs. Weezing: 34-41 (19.8 - 23.9%) Nice. Now for something a bit more strenuous. Still not using a calculator, so I'll make guesses and round a bit, as though I'm trying to eyeball this on the fly. Alakazam (135 Spc) using Psychic (90 BP), with STAB, on that same Weezing (85 Spc, weak to Psychic). 35% more from the Special, (~67 dmg), 10% less from the weaker move (~61 damage), 50% more from STAB (~92), and 100% more from being super effective (~184). Chunk off another 10%, we get... ~175 max, 150ish min. Alakazam Psychic vs. Weezing: 142-168 (83 - 98.2%) That's... more significantly off. If that Alakazam (50 Atk) instead uses Submission (80 BP) on Weezing (120 Def, Fighting resistance). our prediction is ~5-8 damage, where as the actual max damage is 18-22. Yeah, turns out Pokemon math is actually pretty complicated. As the numbers get larger or smaller, the EMA estimates get more and more wonky, especially as base stats change, and especially especially once we start working in level gaps (or even equal levels that aren't 50.) Still, that last example was pretty deliberately chosen to be as off-center as possible. As long as I keep in mind the limitations, though, and don't try to eyeball obnoxious and niche cases, it works pretty well. TL;DR: Two level 50 Pokemon where every relevant number is 100 will deal about 45 damage to each other. Use basic multipliers based on this number, and you get a decent approximation of damage... as long as you don't stray too far. Xelada has some input as well. xelada posted:I think the calculator you are using assumes the Pokemon have maxed IVs and EVs, most notable in Alakazam using Submission, plugging the number you gave gives answers with the discrepancies you mentioned, however, if you add 30 to both Attack and Defence (the max amount that IVs and EVs can add at Level 50) we get answers within the actual results. Wish I had an answer for that one. girl dick energy fucked around with this message at 23:36 on Oct 27, 2019 |
|
#
?
Oct 23, 2019 02:57
|
|
|
Ugh, my brain hurts. I probably made at least one typo or counto in there, math lectures are not my strong suit.
|
|
#
?
Oct 23, 2019 03:09
|
|
|
A few minor things: 100 Attack vs 100 Defence with 100 Power at Level 50 gives 46, not 48. It does make "lop 10% off at the end" even more accurate though. 80% of 50 is 40, and another 10% off is 36. I think the calculator you are using assumes the Pokemon have maxed IVs and EVs, most notable in Alakazam using Submission, plugging the number you gave gives answers with the discrepancies you mentioned, however, if you add 30 to both Attack and Defence (the max amount that IVs and EVs can add at Level 50) we get answers within the actual results. Actually, the increase from IVs and EVs might be the bigger source of being off, in fact, at low stats (like an Alakazam's 50 Attack), the 5 in every stat that every Pokémon starts with can have an effect. Which also brings up an important pair of questions: do the rental, and opponent Pokémon have maxed IVs and EVs?
|
|
#
?
Oct 23, 2019 15:55
|
|
|
Fixed that 46, thank you.xelada posted:I think the calculator you are using assumes the Pokemon have maxed IVs and EVs, most notable in Alakazam using Submission, plugging the number you gave gives answers with the discrepancies you mentioned, however, if you add 30 to both Attack and Defence (the max amount that IVs and EVs can add at Level 50) we get answers within the actual results. girl dick energy fucked around with this message at 16:05 on Oct 23, 2019 |
|
#
?
Oct 23, 2019 16:02
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 11, 2024 03:34 |
|
|
Feel free, although, after rechecking the math for Stat Exp. it would probably be more accurate to say that at level 50, max IV+EV would be about +45 (47 if I didn't make any errors, 50 or 52 if we include the +5 every Pokémon gets) in each stat; putting that into the damage formula seems to give an even closer answer. As such, for most BOTE damage calculations I'd say add 50 to the Base Stat and you have more or less the stat line of a Pokemon with max IVs and EVs, the Competitive Base Stats if you will.
|
|
#
?
Oct 23, 2019 17:07
|
|