|
sexpig by night posted:so does this mean he's gonna stop being squishy about labour people voting for the brexit bill if he's calling it a failure and acknowledging the law was followed despite the weird attempt to force a court case? seems pretty straightforward that everything about the labour MPs voting for the deal didn't matter because they knew the vote would be pulled if letwin passed.
|
#
?
Oct 20, 2019 00:05
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 24, 2024 07:47 |
|
|
PST posted:Obviously it depends on how the court rules in the end, but this is pretty much basic Padfield. The question is whether he was trying to circumvent or frustrate the act. And then there's also the question of whether he has commited contempt of court over it. Thanks for posting that it was interesting, I can't see that it has any bearing on BJ as a private individual writing a letter but definitely shows how his third letter is just obviously irrelevant posturing.
|
|
#
?
Oct 20, 2019 00:06
|
|
|
New maximum stupid outcome: The deal ties, and by following speaker denison's rule, bercow votes it through because it's only the second reading and that means "further debate"  Bercow's commitment to the role of speaker actually ends up making everyone hate him.
|
|
#
?
Oct 20, 2019 00:10
|
|
|
It was really striking how different the XR protest at Trafalgar last week felt and how the Remain protest at Trafalgar today felt. Biggest difference is that the Remain people clearly feel like their cause is systemically supported while the XR are aware that every single facet of the establishment is against them, there's a sort of smug performativity that XR didn't have the luxury of. Not saying XR are 100% perfect but seeing both in such close proximity it was impossible not to have infinitely more respect for the people turning out for XR.
|
|
#
?
Oct 20, 2019 00:16
|
|
|
OwlFancier posted:I'm somewhat of the same mind as david allen green, if he technically broke the law for cred, that's not... really a justification to let him? Like the idea that the PM can do what he wants re: the law as long as it works out is... not really a recipe for a functional government? Yeah I don't know if you'd get away with it as a regular person if you went "Yeah I burned the house down m'lud but nobody was inside and actually it turns out it was structurally very unsound, so I may have saved lives!" Or going "I tried to burn the house down but it didn't catch." Also tomorrow's Express front page is great, just size Massive font going "Why won't they let us leave?" as if we've been grabbed by Josef Fritzl 
|
|
#
?
Oct 20, 2019 00:18
|
|
|
Vitamin P posted:It was really striking how different the XR protest at Trafalgar last week felt and how the Remain protest at Trafalgar today felt. Biggest difference is that the Remain people clearly feel like their cause is systemically supported while the XR are aware that every single facet of the establishment is against them, there's a sort of smug performativity that XR didn't have the luxury of. Not saying XR are 100% perfect but seeing both in such close proximity it was impossible not to have infinitely more respect for the people turning out for XR. Wow yeah, if there's one vibe I get from XR aside from staggering naivete it's performative protest but right you are.
|
|
#
?
Oct 20, 2019 00:19
|
|
|
XR glued themselves on top of electrically-driven public transport; they're either morons or subverted.
|
|
#
?
Oct 20, 2019 00:19
|
|
|
Reposting for the new page because what the gently caress. Also there are currently at least six countries on fire including Ethiopia, Syria, Mexico and Spain. But gently caress that BREXIT FOREVER.
|
|
#
?
Oct 20, 2019 00:20
|
|
|
Itzena posted:XR glued themselves on top of electrically-driven public transport; they're either morons or subverted. They did a whole bunch of actions; unfair to tar them all with the one that was clearly agent provocateurs.
|
|
#
?
Oct 20, 2019 00:20
|
|
|
I really do wish they'd got the blood engine working. Not least because that might have summoned khorne and he'd have solved brexit. Ms Adequate posted:Yeah I don't know if you'd get away with it as a regular person if you went "Yeah I burned the house down m'lud but nobody was inside and actually it turns out it was structurally very unsound, so I may have saved lives!" Yeah, if you're worried about the erosion of the basis of our society then "the pm can break the law for cool points as long as it doesn't cause immediate problems" seems like a particularly bad precedent to set?
|
|
#
?
Oct 20, 2019 00:24
|
|
|
so are we hosed or what friends
|
|
#
?
Oct 20, 2019 00:24
|
|
|
OwlFancier posted:I really do wish they'd got the blood engine working. Khorne would have signed the loving letter. IN BLOOD
|
|
#
?
Oct 20, 2019 00:25
|
|
|
bump_fn posted:so are we hosed or what friends You mean in general or specifically in regards to Brexit?
|
|
#
?
Oct 20, 2019 00:26
|
|
|
bump_fn posted:so are we hosed or what friends Depends how it goes next week! Depends if the government manages to get their bullshit tabled on monday and depends if the bill gets voted through properly or if it gets amended on tuesday, and also whether that counts as "accepting the deal" for the purposes of the benn act because if not we might still end up with an extension, and possibly a VONC mid-process.
|
|
#
?
Oct 20, 2019 00:27
|
|
|
Anyone that doesn't support XR but isn't directly paid to not support XR is pathetically servile to capital. This post will be evergreen,
|
|
#
?
Oct 20, 2019 00:28
|
|
|
Ms Adequate posted:Yeah I don't know if you'd get away with it as a regular person if you went "Yeah I burned the house down m'lud but nobody was inside and actually it turns out it was structurally very unsound, so I may have saved lives!" Not really relevant to Johnson but it reminded me.
|
|
#
?
Oct 20, 2019 00:31
|
|
|
sexpig by night posted:so does this mean he's gonna stop being squishy about labour people voting for the brexit bill if he's calling it a failure and acknowledging the law was followed despite the weird attempt to force a court case? My current prediction: Step 1: Wrecking amendments designed to appeal to people who want to seem pro-Leave. Like 'we want a deal but can't accept a border down the Irish sea' kind of thing. Step 2: If that fails it'll come down to a straight vote on the deal. Boris sending the letter has removed the threat of 'my deal or no deal', so that removes one excuse Labour people had to vote for it. Step 3: If all else fails and his deal PASSES the emergency back-up option is to call an immediate VONC. Now Boris has sent the letter we don't need to worry about crashing out, so we don't need a temporary PM any more. The Lords can probably be counted on to delay the Withdrawal Bill for 14 days even if the commons can't. OwlFancier posted:I would expect he's still going to be trying whatever he can to get some wrecking amendments in, as that seems more likely to be practical than a flat vote down. One thing I thought is that Corbyn might be saving the withdraw the whip option for Step 3: Return of the VONC. Booting out someone because they supported the Tories in a confidence motion might be more palatable for him that booting them out over a policy difference, and there are some fairly socialist people (Melanie Onn for start) who will vote for the deal but might baulk at actually supporting a Johnson government.
|
|
#
?
Oct 20, 2019 00:33
|
|
|
Guavanaut posted:I'm sure there was a case in the 80s where people burned down a derelict factory in Manchester because it was attracting organised criminal behaviour and the council weren't doing poo poo, and a vicar said "yup totally me who did it on my own because I'm a badass arsonist" and the court went "ok sure token punishment". Pff, capitalism has optimized the process so development companies can source and direct their own arsonists against buildings that need to be demolished well before anyone realises they need to be, sometimes when they're still listed by the outmoded government.
|
|
#
?
Oct 20, 2019 00:33
|
|
|
Vitamin P posted:Anyone that doesn't support XR but isn't directly paid to not support XR is pathetically servile to capital. This post will be evergreen, Guess XR Landlords and XR Police are the true voice of the revolution, drat, something to think about.
|
|
#
?
Oct 20, 2019 00:34
|
|
|
jabby posted:My current prediction: Certainly I think the couple of days breathing room gives labour more time to figure out what the hell they're going to do to get people onside, give them alternatives, or drop the hammer on them. And yes it's quite possible we might end up with a VONC even if it passes. The concern is that the EU denies the extension if Boris is able to get the second reading passed. Which would be... weird because they must realise how volatile the situation is here. I'm not sure what it profits them to have us crash out or be seen to be forced into accepting the deal by the EU.
|
|
#
?
Oct 20, 2019 00:37
|
|
|
Vincent Van Goatse posted:You mean in general or specifically in regards to Brexit? i specifically meant brexit, i know in general we are
|
|
#
?
Oct 20, 2019 00:38
|
|
|
we either get the deal or we get extended out to jan 31st. We're either hosed or set for either a VONC into a GE or a second ref. Bearing in mind a second ref is what avoids a Corbyn govt in an extension scenario, we could well see parliament vote for the second ref just to gently caress Corbyn. It's exciting drama.
|
|
#
?
Oct 20, 2019 00:45
|
|
|
I'm not sure a second referendum avoids a corbyn government, if the tories lose the referendum, they are so goddamn hosed, like, I almost wonder if they wouldn't hit single digit polling in that instance. If they win, well, it's not labour's fault. We did what the lib dems wanted, and it lost. Oh well! Second referendum is far from the worst outcome, and I'm still not sure the deal passing doesn't mean a VONC either, but that scenario does still make it a hard fight for labour.
|
|
#
?
Oct 20, 2019 00:47
|
|
|
I'm assuming a general election follows whatever may come. If the deal happens, ref or no, Labour will lose points to the fact they they're largely responsible for the delay. "Why did you draw it out this long?" is going to be the spirit. If the deal is prevented by a ref, the Conservatives will have to reach to the right while the Lib Dems soak up the revoke glory and it seems up in the air. Coalition 2 or Labour there? Our best chance is VONC once the extension is rolled out even if that means a hard fought battle against the tories in peak "are sovuruntay" mode. Azza Bamboo fucked around with this message at 00:59 on Oct 20, 2019 |
|
#
?
Oct 20, 2019 00:55
|
|
|
It probably hurts them a bit, i guess, but it would seriously hurt the libs too. It's much less bad than the deal passing on labour votes and that's the end of it. Also not sure the libs would really gain that much from a successful revokation, they don't have any policies, and I definitely don't think they'd get enough to make up for the tory losses, because that would be a loving boon for farage and BXP. I almost want the referendum option just for the faint chance to watch boris johnson fall over dead on the spot.
|
|
#
?
Oct 20, 2019 00:58
|
|
|
XR is an exemplar of what happens when middle-class "I work in the media"-types area allowed a whiff of control. Their entire 'movement' (in the UK, at least) is centred around a desire to be noticed. So it's "how many re-tweets can we get" or "how many impressions will our video make?". There's no need to ascribe ulterior motives like undercover police, or MI5 infiltration. It's just Shoreditch cunts latching onto something they think they can leverage into a better-paid job within 18 months. Because, while expendable XR assets in London have the poo poo kicked out of them by angry commuters for peaceful protest, disorganised 'burn-this-poo poo-to-the-ground' protests in Santiago have halted the government's plan to raise fares for public transport. Basically, XR demonstrate again that peaceful protest is the brittle-boned stepchild of the only successful form of protest - violence against the state and the rich.
|
|
#
?
Oct 20, 2019 00:59
|
|
|
RockyB posted:Reposting for the new page because what the gently caress. NotJustANumber99 posted:Should be Greggs not ikea
|
|
#
?
Oct 20, 2019 01:00
|
|
|
There's a difference between saying you're prepared to be violent to the state and rich online in a safe space among socialist inclined thinkers and actually going out and being violent to the state and the rich. If the latter actually happens I'll be surprised but probably won't join. In fact no I'll definitely join because all this post is is me saying things in a safe space among socialist inclined thinkers. Yes I'd definitely be very violent for sure.
|
|
#
?
Oct 20, 2019 01:02
|
|
|
kingturnip posted:Basically, XR demonstrate again that peaceful protest is the brittle-boned stepchild of the only successful form of protest - violence against the state and the rich. Reminder: At this very moment there is violent protest going on in Ethopia, Spain (Catalonia), Hong Kong, Ecuador and gently caress are the gilet jaunes still going? We have loving extinction rebellion sending love letters to police stations.
|
|
#
?
Oct 20, 2019 01:08
|
|
|
If there was a violent protest here XR would be the perfect media distraction  .
|
|
#
?
Oct 20, 2019 01:11
|
|
|
jabby posted:b) We're hosed. This is the current position now, forever, and no matter what happens tho? Right?
|
|
#
?
Oct 20, 2019 01:14
|
|
|
I'd rather sink into climate disaster as an EU citizen.
|
|
#
?
Oct 20, 2019 01:18
|
|
|
Let's be honest the perfect media distraction is something between a new royal baby and  Yeah I'm hotlinking biatch, what of it. Anyway the extent of violent protest in the UK these days seems to be a couple of white XR protestors climbing on to a tube train and kicking a black guy. I'm very much looking forward to the children of men eco-fascist future.
|
|
#
?
Oct 20, 2019 01:19
|
|
|
Azza Bamboo posted:I'd rather sink into climate disaster as an EU citizen. I thought a strong, independent Britain would be a class leading society with strong employment, progressive taxation and EVEN BETTER environmental protections than the current EU mean. Why would you even want to be a member of the EU if things will be so much better on the outside? Indeed making Britain great again could be the only way to save the planet!
|
|
#
?
Oct 20, 2019 01:21
|
|
|
Yeah but I want to visit Ibiza before it sinks into the ocean and Visas are a PITA
|
|
#
?
Oct 20, 2019 01:23
|
|
|
Azza Bamboo posted:Yeah but I want to visit Ibiza before it sinks into the ocean and Visas are a PITA I hear staycations are all the rage and have you heard about the bargains available at Butlins in such exotic locations as Skegness and Bognor Regis?
|
|
#
?
Oct 20, 2019 01:27
|
|
|
Skeg won't last long when the oceans go up. Our local news did a thing on it, and my friends all agreed it's no great loss.
|
|
#
?
Oct 20, 2019 01:30
|
|
|
RE: Children of menMichael fuckin' Caine posted:Jasper: Yeah, there you go! Julian and Theo met among a million protesters in a rally by chance. But they were there because of what they believed in in the first place, their faith. They wanted to change the world. And their faith kept them together. But by chance, Dylan was born.
|
|
#
?
Oct 20, 2019 01:33
|
|
|
Azza Bamboo posted:There's a difference between saying you're prepared to be violent to the state and rich online in a safe space among socialist inclined thinkers and actually going out and being violent to the state and the rich. I agree, in principle. If I joined a violent protest and was identified and later charged in relation to it, I'd lose my job. And never be able to do the same job again. That's a fairly strong incentive to tow the line. Or, at least, to think carefully about how to participate anonymously.
|
|
#
?
Oct 20, 2019 01:39
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 24, 2024 07:47 |
|
|
OwlFancier posted:Certainly I think the couple of days breathing room gives labour more time to figure out what the hell they're going to do to get people onside, give them alternatives, or drop the hammer on them. And yes it's quite possible we might end up with a VONC even if it passes. The concern is that the EU denies the extension if Boris is able to get the second reading passed. Which would be... weird because they must realise how volatile the situation is here. I'm not sure what it profits them to have us crash out or be seen to be forced into accepting the deal by the EU. I think the EU are going to avoid saying anything about the extension for as long as possible, probably right up until October 31st. At that point if we're still in the process of loving about we'll get an extension. What I hope doesn't happen now is Johnson being taken to court. The papers are already splashing everywhere that he's defied the Benn act by not signing the letter, taking him to court just helps further that narrative and then makes him look doubly smart when the court rules he actually hasn't breached the Benn act. Everyone now needs to do what Corbyn is doing and thank Johnson for requesting a delay.
|
|
#
?
Oct 20, 2019 01:41
|
|