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thetoughestbean posted:I agree with this. I think, for me, the core appeal, gameplay wise, of Pokémon is meaningful customization and personalization, combined with a strong elemental system. That said, I’m not sure how a designer would achieve that without a high crunch system, which I’m not sure people would want for their fun Pokémon romp. At least, not enough people to justify making and publishing a whole-rear end ttrpg Sorry, Pokemon Masters and Pokemon Jr Adventure Game respectively.
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Oct 20, 2019 01:19
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Moriatti posted:Sorry, Pokemon Masters and Pokemon Jr Adventure Game respectively. Holy moly, how did I never hear about the Pokémon Jr Adventure Game? I need o track a copy down
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Oct 20, 2019 01:28
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Dont, It's really bad.
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Oct 20, 2019 01:29
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Moriatti posted:Dont, It's really bad. That’s why I want it though
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Oct 20, 2019 01:29
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Lol good luck.
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Oct 20, 2019 01:31
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Splicer posted:The day I found out there was a bunch of weird fiddly poo poo hiding in the background of Pokemon that meant using the wrong power could warp a bunch of numbers I didn't care about such that my cool plant guy would be considerably less cool was the day I decided I was cool with not playing pokemon anymore. I realised a long time ago that I want games where I can lego brick large concepts together, not do a bunch of accountancy on abstract numbers to make them actually function. Which is not to say I don't like crunch, but I want my crunch to be "OK what cool plant monster powers and abilities can I combo together to do cool plant monster things" not "OK I need to take (gently caress I don't even know) so I can grind SPD" Powers (moves?) in pokemon don't warp numbers. What happens, at least from Gen 3 onward, is there's two hidden values that impact the growth of your pokemon's base stats. There's IVs (individual values), which are a fixed modifier set whenever the pokemon is first encountered or when an egg is created; they're between 0 and 31 and add that number to the base stat by level 100 (so a 31 in attack adds 31 to the attack stat at level 100). It's not that much different from any other game with randomized stats, except that the games started out telling you almost nothing about them and fans had to figure everything out themselves by data mining the games. Nowadays, they put a guy in the world that will give you a kind of "hot/cold" estimate of your highest and lowest stats, and you can feed that data into any given pokemon fansite's calculator to figure out your pokemon's IVs. Starting with Sun/Moon you can also find ways to subvert the "real" IVs and have pokemon be treated as though the IVs were maxed out with Super Training. There's also EVs (effort values), which are basically points absorbed by a pokemon when they receive XP from fighting another pokemon. Each pokemon species gives a certain EV type and amount (so like Chansey gives 2 HP EVs when you beat one). EVs add a fraction of an amount to the base stat, and it caps out at 510 EVs total on any pokemon, and each stat is (currently) capped at 252 EVs, which maths out to a max of 63 points added to the corresponding base stat by level 100. When you're running through the game, a pokemon's EVs will be really spread out from the variety of pokemon you're fighting, and generally won't cap out on EVs until about the end of the story. The games have gotten a lot more transparent about your EV scores and made it really easy to reset them if you'd like to try to deliberately train a pokemon for certain EV distributions. There are various things you can do during or after the main storyline to make EV training easy enough to complete in like 10 minutes on a stat, but it helps to have friends who can loan you items or infect your pokemon with a parasite. Both of these factors only matter at all if you are obsessed with doing "competitive" pokemon matches against other humans online, or want to run through the very repetitive post-game battle tower, and most competitive communities have to set up a convoluted series of gentleman's agreements anyway because no matter what the legendary pokemon and a few OP normal pokemon are going to overpower everything if you try matching them up against like a Jynx or whatever. I think it would be pretty easy to emulate EVs in a tabletop game, perhaps not after every battle, but maybe at certain milestones or after major fights you'd get the opportunity to add a stat boost to whichever pokemon competed in the fight. IVs I'd disregard, or maybe just call the extra points you assign a pokemon when you're creating it "IVs".
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Oct 20, 2019 02:50
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Libertad! posted:The fact that Digimon can talk does wonders in elevating them from "cockfighting monsters" to feeling like real partners of the Digi-Destined with character development. True Moriatti posted:I think move variety, type effectiveness and training are super important to the Pokemon brand. Games that are successful in the franchise tend to use these (the TCG, Mainline Games and to a lesser degree, Go) while games that are more likely to eschew them really underdo these (Pokken, Heroes, Duel, the minis game, the official ttrpg) One thing that several of the games have done is have Digimon retain moves from earlier stages, and in a tabletop RPG I feel that would be a critical aspect of the system and making the earlier stages feel important Covok posted:Seconded. Heck, the Digimon in Adventure were basically there to help the kids get over internal issues in their lives. I'm still shocked how much American T.V. left in tact given Fox Kids track record. The fact that the Matt and T.K.'s parents are divorced plot made it through completely in tact and still ended with the parents still divorced is crazy. Or poor Wizardmon doomed to forever be a ghost for doing the right thing, never able to reincarnate. Definitely, in regards to a setting, if one were to use one of the anime ones, as much as people like to rag on it, setting in during the aftermath of Adventure 02 would actually be a potentially interesting one, especially if we ignore the mess that is Tri
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Oct 20, 2019 03:24
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Honestly I feel like the game space for Digimon is closer to a satisfactory execution than Pokémon. Like, Monsters and Other Childish Things exists already and it’s a lot closer to what a Digimon game would cover than any game has to any of the various takes on Pokémon.
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Oct 20, 2019 03:52
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I got high and pulled this out of my rear end based on some things I've been tinkering with lately https://drive.google.com/file/d/1zaIwa6ZQ-s6sKBXwWpWyRs-gAZLQIlyi/view?usp=sharing I call this masterpiece, pokemonfrommyass.indd
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Oct 20, 2019 04:25
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IMO the biggest thing regarding making a Digimon TRPG is that there's a far larger gap between gameplay and presentation between the games and the anime/manga than in Pokémon because in the former you have like several partners, digivolutions are mostly permanent, fusions are mostly permanent and devolving/resurrecting your Digimon into different evolution families are all in the gameplay and in the latter media none of those exist.
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Oct 20, 2019 04:46
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I feel like the Digivolution aspect of a game based on the shows should honestly be like 4E’s tiers because barring very specific incidents the characters always windmill slam into the highest level they can as soon as poo poo starts.
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Oct 20, 2019 04:57
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Also Cyber Sleuth Complete Edition (Both the first and Hacker's Memory) are on steam y'all that game rules
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Oct 20, 2019 04:58
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Admittedly my dream setup for a Cybersleuth inspired digivolution system where you’re going up and down various branches would be a modular sheet for digivolving that you just lay over your character sheet that has updated values, which I think I’m pulling from Warhammer Fantasy’s third edition but I don’t recollect fully where I saw it. I’d love to see another game use that sort of thing because it’s such a novel way to represent a transformation or shape-change.
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Oct 20, 2019 05:04
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Mr. Maltose posted:I feel like the Digivolution aspect of a game based on the shows should honestly be like 4E’s tiers because barring very specific incidents the characters always windmill slam into the highest level they can as soon as poo poo starts. This but levelling is done by a Chuubos style quest sheet.
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Oct 20, 2019 05:12
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Mr. Maltose posted:Honestly I feel like the game space for Digimon is closer to a satisfactory execution than Pokémon. Like, Monsters and Other Childish Things exists already and it’s a lot closer to what a Digimon game would cover than any game has to any of the various takes on Pokémon. Yeah, a lot of aspects of Pokémon are just really sad if you think about them too long, but a video game can more effectively control your actions and the narrative you create within the game, which makes it a little easier to suspend your disbelief about what’s happening. I think tabletop as a play space is more inviting in terms of digging in to the questions Pokémon brings up. So yeah I agree that Digimon seems like the smoother adaptation.
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Oct 20, 2019 05:16
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Moriatti posted:This but levelling is done by a Chuubos style quest sheet. Digivolution probably does run on something similar to the powers in Chuubo that can only be activated after completing a short emotional subplot or getting your rear end kicked twice by the same villain.
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Oct 20, 2019 05:19
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Plutonis posted:Also Cyber Sleuth Complete Edition (Both the first and Hacker's Memory) are on steam y'all that game rules And yet it's not available on PS4 even though the base game has been delisted on that console for the better part of a year
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Oct 20, 2019 07:05
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Cyber Sleuth is missing Coronamon despite having Lunamon, how dare they. Also the more I think about it, excising the human element from Digimon would definitely be the wrong way to go about this. That said when I think of Digimon my mind immediately goes to 4e, I can't help it.
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Oct 20, 2019 07:47
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Azran posted:Cyber Sleuth is missing Coronamon despite having Lunamon, how dare they. Could probably get some good results by modifying Gamma World 7e as the base game
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Oct 20, 2019 07:52
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Nuns with Guns posted:There's also EVs (effort values), which are basically points absorbed by a pokemon when they receive XP from fighting another pokemon. Each pokemon species gives a certain EV type and amount (so like Chansey gives 2 HP EVs when you beat one). EVs add a fraction of an amount to the base stat, and it caps out at 510 EVs total on any pokemon, and each stat is (currently) capped at 252 EVs, which maths out to a max of 63 points added to the corresponding base stat by level 100. When you're running through the game, a pokemon's EVs will be really spread out from the variety of pokemon you're fighting, and generally won't cap out on EVs until about the end of the story. The games have gotten a lot more transparent about your EV scores and made it really easy to reset them if you'd like to try to deliberately train a pokemon for certain EV distributions. There are various things you can do during or after the main storyline to make EV training easy enough to complete in like 10 minutes on a stat, but it helps to have friends who can loan you items or infect your pokemon with a parasite. Nuns with Guns posted:I think it would be pretty easy to emulate EVs in a tabletop game, perhaps not after every battle, but maybe at certain milestones or after major fights you'd get the opportunity to add a stat boost to whichever pokemon competed in the fight. IVs I'd disregard, or maybe just call the extra points you assign a pokemon when you're creating it "IVs".
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Oct 20, 2019 10:23
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I'm so glad that none of the Pokemon tabletop systems I'm familiar with bother with EVs or IVs or anything of the sort.
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Oct 20, 2019 15:29
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Splicer posted:It comes down to what the knock on effects are. If you're choosing between +10HP or +1 damage to your attacks, yeah sure. If attacks key off specific attributes and players can place points into attributes that none of their attacks key off, why is a fighting monsters TTRPG giving the players the opportunity to make their fighting monsters bad at fighting? Probably the same reason the games let you do it which is 
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Oct 20, 2019 15:32
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Yeah, honestly a rework of GW 7e would be the way to go for a pokemon game. GW characters end up with a few passives and six powers at max level, which boil down to two utilities, two at-wills, and two encounter powers. Just about enough to give any little monster you're training four powers and two of whatever those other things you teach pokemon. You could literally reduce the human character to a name and a feat chain. The only thing that would be problematic would be the whole "combine two aspects to make a character thing" which isn't a good fit for pokemon. But poo poo if you were playing Monster Rancher it'd be perfect.
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Oct 20, 2019 17:25
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Splicer posted:It comes down to what the knock on effects are. If you're choosing between +10HP or +1 damage to your attacks, yeah sure. If attacks key off specific attributes and players can place points into attributes that none of their attacks key off, why is a fighting monsters TTRPG giving the players the opportunity to make their fighting monsters bad at fighting? That's the challenge, yeah. There's a lot of randomness baked into pokemon and in spite of gradually conceding ways to check on stuff in-game, the randomness itself hasn't changed much over time. I don't believe that level of randomness should be in a tabletop RPG, because while it's possible and pretty normal to game the system for dedicated fans in a single player game, it's miserable busywork in a tabletop RPG. I do like the idea of pokemon you've journeyed with becoming stronger as their attachment to you grows, but compromises also need to be made for the game, not just for efficiency in chargen and combat, but also for the sake of constructing a good narrative. For instance, one thing that absolutely needs to be changed is how Natures work, because Natures are also randomized and also impact stat growth in the game. It's fine when you're using pokemon for a purely competitive environment where it doesn't matter if all your Special Attackers have a Timid nature and all your Physical Attackers have a Jolly nature and your Special Walls have a Careful nature, but pigeonholing every pokemon's broad personality type into a handful of "optimal" choices is completely noxious to a tabletop rpg. (It's noxious to roleplaying in the game itself, but the more rigid structure of the game and general ease of the storyline means a suboptimal nature doesn't matter.) It does make me think that it'd be really fun to include "GameSharking" an in-game mechanic in a pokemon RPG, and allow characters to break the game's established rules, either by permitting them to capture a pokemon they couldn't find nearby otherwise, quick hacking in an item they need, or god-modding hard boss fights. Nuns with Guns fucked around with this message at 17:59 on Oct 20, 2019 |
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Oct 20, 2019 17:54
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Leraika posted:I'm so glad that none of the Pokemon tabletop systems I'm familiar with bother with EVs or IVs or anything of the sort. Yeah as far as I know it only bothered with natures being the only thing to influence stat spread.
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Oct 20, 2019 17:57
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Doesn't PTU just give you discretionary ability points and ask you just maintain that allocations stay somewhat ordered (Snorlax's worst stat will always be speed, for instance?) That seems like a good way to do EVs. Iirc, they specifically say to ask players what mons they are searching for and to give starters egg moves and abstract grinding too.
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Oct 20, 2019 19:00
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Moriatti posted:Doesn't PTU just give you discretionary ability points and ask you just maintain that allocations stay somewhat ordered (Snorlax's worst stat will always be speed, for instance?) Yep! It's a house rule that every game I played and ran used.
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Oct 20, 2019 19:14
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Speaking of Gamma World 7e, is there a wiki or a website or something somewhere with all the cards on it or do I have to collect a gradually slimming number of booster packs until I die of old age?
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Oct 20, 2019 19:33
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TK_Nyarlathotep posted:Speaking of Gamma World 7e, is there a wiki or a website or something somewhere with all the cards on it or do I have to collect a gradually slimming number of booster packs until I die of old age? DriveThru has them in PDF, you can also get a set printed up through them
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Oct 20, 2019 19:39
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drrockso20 posted:DriveThru has them in PDF, you can also get a set printed up through them Nice, thank you!
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Oct 20, 2019 20:31
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Lunatic Sledge posted:I got high and pulled this out of my rear end based on some things I've been tinkering with lately This definitely seems like a better alternative than all the other ones. If I ever find people interested in playing this I'll let you know what happened.
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Oct 21, 2019 16:09
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unseenlibrarian posted:Yeah, if you want to make a weirdly insulting comparison to an RPG message board for people who want to emulate the crunch of a video game because they see the rules as being a key part of the setting you'd probably go with "It's extremely the gaming den" Wow, that's awfully *rolls dice, checks table* early 1990s alt.games.whitewolf of you.
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Oct 21, 2019 18:35
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y'all are trying to hard to adapt pokemnon systems to a tg space. in a ttrpg you don't need ev's to make a pokemon unique because you can actually give the pokemon a personality
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Oct 21, 2019 20:39
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how to adapt insane Pokémon systems and differentiate Pokémon 1. Some Pokemon are wild and have a pregen set of stats 2. Some Pokémon are trained and pick stats to improve and/or get situational bonuses 3. You make both of these up on the fly as you go done, roll dise, have fun
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Oct 21, 2019 20:46
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The point of EVs (or at least the only arguably worthwhile thing about them) is so that a LVL 20 Pikachu you've been training with since level 6 will be stronger than a freshly caught LVL 20 Pikachu or one you leveled using daycare or rare candy. The implementation is dumb. But that idea isn't the worst, if you had a crunchy enough game to support it.
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Oct 21, 2019 22:31
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I think the big tension is the desire to make catching new pokemon a major mechanic, while also trying to give players signature pokemon that they develop relationships with. I'm not really sure how you reconcile those things.
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Oct 21, 2019 22:54
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fool_of_sound posted:I think the big tension is the desire to make catching new pokemon a major mechanic, while also trying to give players signature pokemon that they develop relationships with. I'm not really sure how you reconcile those things. PTU has different classes that prioritize one or the other.
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Oct 21, 2019 22:58
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fool_of_sound posted:I think the big tension is the desire to make catching new pokemon a major mechanic, while also trying to give players signature pokemon that they develop relationships with. I'm not really sure how you reconcile those things. I mean just admit that there's some intangible ~trainer bond~ effect that weakens if you don't spend tons of time with one specific poke-man and don't pretend like it's the video game where everyone can have storage lockers full of Pikachus That Can Punch God because they left the things at a combination daycare/sex party
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Oct 21, 2019 23:08
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wdarkk posted:This definitely seems like a better alternative than all the other ones. If I ever find people interested in playing this I'll let you know what happened. I would be curious how well it works out
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Oct 21, 2019 23:29
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Black August posted:how to adapt insane Pokémon systems and differentiate Pokémon Mike Mearls post here?
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Oct 22, 2019 03:03
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