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Watched this with a friend tonight, and he was shocked by Just how much of the movie was just the South Bronx. If there’s a humor in this is that no matter how successful this movie is, almost nobody from there will get anything from it . He grew up in the area so he had a lot to say on the drive home.
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Oct 20, 2019 05:03
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H13 posted:Phoenix's performance is fantastic. The direction is awesome and it's wonderfully shot. Phoenix's performance is comparable to Heath Ledger's, however Heath Ledger had something that Phoenix didn't have. Heath Ledger was great in The Dark Knight but lol at Christopher Nolan's "I, a comic book character, am now literally telling you my ethos" writing not being heavy-handed.
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Oct 20, 2019 10:19
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Milkfred E. Moore posted:When I came out of the cinema, I was just thinking that the anti-girlfriend montage was stupid and unnecessary - and at that exact moment someone next to me said that they didn't know if the relationship was real or not. So, audiences be dumb. This was also the worst part of Fight Club. 20 years and society hasn't learned.
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Oct 20, 2019 12:27
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Steve2911 posted:This was also the worst part of Fight Club. 20 years and society hasn't learned. I don't think I'd have understood Fight Club on first viewing if they hadn't spelt it out with a montage.
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Oct 20, 2019 12:51
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exquisite tea posted:Heath Ledger was great in The Dark Knight but lol at Christopher Nolan's "I, a comic book character, am now literally telling you my ethos" writing not being heavy-handed. This is true because Nolan remembers to show AND tell. Case in point, when he's convincing Dent to become an anarchist, he allows Dent to put the gun against his head and flip the coin. The "Wanna-Know-How-I-Got-These-Scars" speeches are different each time adding to the ambiguity. He is explaining what he is doing, while he is doing it, rather than just explaining...the film overall.
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Oct 20, 2019 12:56
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My problem with Nolan's writing is that he does this at least three times as much as he needs to with spelling everything out for the audience, did you get it guys, I repeated that dialogue from earlier in a different context, mind your surroundings, why do we fall down Bruce, it's like poetry it rhymes.
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Oct 20, 2019 13:26
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Phenotype posted:I mean, even so. Don't compromise your big moment just so the dumbest people in the audience can follow along. But a lot of people are very dumb. I'll never forget when Matrix Reloaded came out and I overheard a conversation where a couple was about to see Reloaded and the guy was trying to explain to her, who apparently hadn't seen the first movie, about how it was all about aliens and time travel. Like it had been years after the first movie and he still thought it was about aliens and time travel. Morpheus gave an entire speech explaining the premise and this guy thought ALIENS and TIME TRAVEL! And I eavesdropped on the entire conversation because that's when I realized that's why big budget Hollywood movies have focus groups. Because people are dumb as poo poo, but studios want their money. If someone wants to do a great indie movie I'm all for not compromising, but if they want to do a franchise big budget blockbuster you have to spell things out because I bet 40% of the audience will not get it even when you do spell it out.
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Oct 20, 2019 15:36
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1glitch0 posted:But a lot of people are very dumb. I'll never forget when Matrix Reloaded came out and I overheard a conversation where a couple was about to see Reloaded and the guy was trying to explain to her, who apparently hadn't seen the first movie, about how it was all about aliens and time travel. Like it had been years after the first movie and he still thought it was about aliens and time travel. Morpheus gave an entire speech explaining the premise and this guy thought ALIENS and TIME TRAVEL! And I eavesdropped on the entire conversation because that's when I realized that's why big budget Hollywood movies have focus groups. Because people are dumb as poo poo, but studios want their money. From what I've noticed a part of the audience pay little to no attention to a movie. I used to have a friend who would keep talking non-stop and always tried to get your attention to stop looking at the screen and listen to him. When asked, why the hell was he doing that, he told that "movies are for socializing and chatting with your friends, I dunno why you guys want to sit there in silence". Yes, I'm a snobby cinephile when it comes to sitting down to watch movies on a theater.  I have problems to focus on poo poo and I need my silence and dark environment, goddammit.
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Oct 20, 2019 15:52
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H13 posted:
The change is that he's a mentally ill person who's still trying to conform to society, at least in part due to trying to care for and please his I'll mother, but as the events of the movie take a toll on him, he goes off his meds and gives in to his base impulses, killing his mom and coworker to complete his change and going on the talk show as his coming out party.
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Oct 20, 2019 18:06
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Milkfred E. Moore posted:When I came out of the cinema, I was just thinking that the anti-girlfriend montage was stupid and unnecessary - and at that exact moment someone next to me said that they didn't know if the relationship was real or not. So, audiences be dumb. I’d argue that we see that montage because it’s Arthur realizing the reality of the situation in that moment. There are other moments in the movie that are left ambiguous because Arthur never took the time to reality check them.
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Oct 20, 2019 18:13
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Desperado Bones posted:From what I've noticed a part of the audience pay little to no attention to a movie. It seems to be a really common thing which baffles me. People can socialize and chat with their friends anywhere and they don't have to pay 15 bucks a person to do it. It's no wonder Hollywood thinks they can just put up flashing bright lights and noises on a screen and get people to pay and see it. They're right! That's why I'm baffled by food in theaters too. People can't stop shoving food into their faces for 90 minutes?? That seemed weird to me since I was in my late teenage years. Go to dinner with your friends after the movie to talk about it or go before. But during the movie, watch the goddamn movie. Many years ago I once got stuck at a mall and decided to see a movie to kill time and found out once I was inside it was one of those "servers bring you actual entrees to tables in the theater type places all movie long" type places (a thing that was just starting and I had never heard of) and I was just like, well, what new fresh hell is this? But yes, you are very snobby for wanting to watch the thing you paid money to watch in silence and darkness to be able to watch in silence and darkness. :-)
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Oct 20, 2019 20:46
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1glitch0 posted:It seems to be a really common thing which baffles me. People can socialize and chat with their friends anywhere and they don't have to pay 15 bucks a person to do it. It's no wonder Hollywood thinks they can just put up flashing bright lights and noises on a screen and get people to pay and see it. They're right! That's why I'm baffled by food in theaters too. People can't stop shoving food into their faces for 90 minutes?? That seemed weird to me since I was in my late teenage years. Go to dinner with your friends after the movie to talk about it or go before. But during the movie, watch the goddamn movie. We have one of those restaurant-theater places. At the beginning they would actually stop serving at all the moment the movie started. Recently I've noticed the waiters are still walking around during the first 20 minutes or so, also the sound of clutery against the plates is SO distracting. At least they sever alcohol and you can get drunk with hella expensive booze while sitting on a big comfy couch 
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Oct 20, 2019 21:13
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iamsosmrt posted:The change is that he's a mentally ill person who's still trying to conform to society, at least in part due to trying to care for and please his I'll mother, but as the events of the movie take a toll on him, he goes off his meds and gives in to his base impulses, killing his mom and coworker to complete his change and going on the talk show as his coming out party. Yeah, but he didn't really change from good to evil did he? He killed his mum when it became questionable that it was his mum. He killed his coworkers because they got him fired. He killed Murray on the talk show because he was mocked and nationally humiliated. He killed those guys on the train in self defence. None of these things sound like a good guy TURNING bad. This sounds like a guy who when put in a poo poo position, will kill to get out of it. It's less a "HOLY poo poo THIS GUY IS GOING BAD" and more: "Huh. That's what this guy is capable of" We didn't see him in similar situations and make the "good" decision.
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Oct 20, 2019 22:37
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Because he possibly was always bad. That’s the interesting part.
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Oct 20, 2019 23:00
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He was nice to the kid on the bus. 
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Oct 20, 2019 23:51
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the only people he is really nice with are kids. everyone likes kids or pets or both. does that excuse the worst of us from the worst of our behaviour?
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Oct 21, 2019 01:29
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H13 posted:Yeah, but he didn't really change from good to evil did he? I took it much more that all he wants is acceptance and wants to be noticed. He did good things all his life and that never seems to work, then he does one bad thing (killing assholes on a subway) and suddenly he's accepted and noticed. So he's gonna push that button instead to see what happens. And it keeps working. So he's like gently caress society and all of it, I'm gonna do this! He he no agenda, he's just thrilled people in clown masks are cheering him at the end. Which is a really good set-up in 20 years in this universe when Batman shows up and Joker is just all in it for the fun.
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Oct 21, 2019 01:43
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It's the hero's journey, but in the opposite direction.
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Oct 21, 2019 02:05
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Yeah I don't think it was ever really about a good vs evil conflict, Arthur was at best, morally neutral at the beginning. I think by the end of the movie, he's let go on any sense of societal conforming, and is all about fulfilling his own hedonistic pleasures. After experiencing his first murders, he's likely acquired the taste for doing it more and more. I don't even think he's definitely evil by the end. He's a sociopath who doesn't seem to give a poo poo about what he's doing. I mean, he's evil by societal standards, but I don't think he's thinking in those terms.
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Oct 21, 2019 03:28
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I think stabbing that guy in the neck and planning on traumatising and entire tv audience is fairly negative if not outright evil.
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Oct 21, 2019 03:54
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well why not posted:the only people he is really nice with are kids. everyone likes kids or pets or both. does that excuse the worst of us from the worst of our behaviour? I like the scene where Arthur plays with the little kid because in retrospect it wouldn’t really be out of character for the joker to do something similar. E: drat I really hosed this original post up. The Kingfish fucked around with this message at 12:06 on Oct 21, 2019 |
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Oct 21, 2019 04:49
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Phenotype posted:I mean, even so. Don't compromise your big moment just so the dumbest people in the audience can follow along. It's a comic book movie about a clown H13 posted:The movie does make a conscious effort to not be political or do any social commentary. You can't do a Joker character without said commentary, but the focus is on the Joker and his character development. Yeah this bugged me. It was like, so close to almost doing it a couple of times but then they'd kinda pull it back at the last minute. I DO find it interesting that almost everyone I know that watched it hated the politics for entirely different reasons (They are justifying violence/ they let the powerful off too easy)
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Oct 21, 2019 12:29
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BTW anyone who says they wish the class stuff was more pronounced should really, really watch Parasite, and don't look up anything about the movie https://www.imdb.com/title/tt6751668/ punk rebel ecks posted:Rewatching the Nolan Batman films makes it obvious that they are essentially right wing propoganda. It's a more grounded and non-satarical Judge Dredd. Oh yeah remember when Batman Did The Patriot Act lol Even 300 came out like, 3 years after the Iraq War and was "300 white guys beat up LOTS of middle easterners, who look like monsters", and then superhero movies for a bit were kinda like "What if fascism is good??" 9/11 really screwed up US politics huh
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Oct 21, 2019 13:08
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Actually you'll find that I personally enjoyed 300 and Batman, therefore it is satire.
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Oct 21, 2019 13:09
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Parasite was alright - even more heavy handed than Joker though. E: Wait, you said that. 
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Oct 21, 2019 14:24
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ghostwritingduck posted:I’d argue that we see that montage because it’s Arthur realizing the reality of the situation in that moment. There are other moments in the movie that are left ambiguous because Arthur never took the time to reality check them. I'm not so sure about this. I don't recall anything from this scene that indicated he actually believed the relationship was real and was being confronted with the fact that it wasn't. I read the "delusion" scenes as more of a deliberate retreat into a fantasy world when life got tough, but at this point in the film he was driven to reach out for an actual human connection because the fantasy wasn't enough anymore. When he entered the apartment he was certainly behaving in a way that indicated he knew that he'd never been in there before. That said I could be misremembering the scene, I definitely need to see it again.
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Oct 21, 2019 14:33
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THE AWESOME GHOST posted:BTW anyone who says they wish the class stuff was more pronounced should really, really watch Parasite, and don't look up anything about the movie There aren’t any Muslims in 300, and Iran/Persia is not “The Middle East”, but the movie is about a fanatically determined band of zealots who commit suicide to stymie a decadent, multi cultural imperial power in the hopes of inspiring their co religionists to unite against that empire
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Oct 21, 2019 17:44
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The whole movie is Arthurs fantasy. We see a quick flashback to him being in the insane asylum at the start and that's where he is the whole time. The entire movie is just his escapist fantasy
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Oct 21, 2019 17:59
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Arthur be having fantasies INSIDE his fantasies
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Oct 21, 2019 18:10
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Collapsing Farts posted:The whole movie is Arthurs fantasy. We see a quick flashback to him being in the insane asylum at the start and that's where he is the whole time. The entire movie is just his escapist fantasy Wow! Really mind blowing stuff
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Oct 21, 2019 18:11
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Neo Rasa posted:The people that thought Harvey Dent was alive after Batman spears him off a building and then Batman and Gordon spend like five minutes standing over his corpse talking about how to handle the fact that he is dead. Why do I actually believe this was a thing?
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Oct 21, 2019 22:52
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Truly, Joker is the Mulholland Dr. of superhero films.
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Oct 21, 2019 22:59
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punk rebel ecks posted:Why do I actually believe this was a thing? It was, somehow
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Oct 21, 2019 23:02
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Neo Rasa posted:The people that thought Harvey Dent was alive after Batman spears him off a building and then Batman and Gordon spend like five minutes standing over his corpse talking about how to handle the fact that he is dead. I loving remember this being a thing. People are weird.
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Oct 21, 2019 23:04
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A character arch has nothing to do with good vs. evil. Just because Joker isn't about the fall of a good man, that doesn't mean there's no arch. Also it's pretty common for a film to show what "actually happened" with the reveal of an unreliable narrator, it was fine you nerds.Mazzagatti2Hotty posted:I'm not so sure about this. I don't recall anything from this scene that indicated he actually believed the relationship was real and was being confronted with the fact that it wasn't. I read the "delusion" scenes as more of a deliberate retreat into a fantasy world when life got tough, but at this point in the film he was driven to reach out for an actual human connection because the fantasy wasn't enough anymore. When he entered the apartment he was certainly behaving in a way that indicated he knew that he'd never been in there before. This is a good read, and he definitely walks through the apartment like he's exploring it for the first time, studying the drawings, touching the pillows on the couch and so on. It vaguely reminded me of the end of World on a Wire, which, spoilers for a 46 year old German TV movie I guess, has a man that was a computer simulation end up in the real world and he just goes around touching and breathing in the curtains, just tactically experiencing everything in what would otherwise just be a dull room. The scene is Arthur finally leaving his fantasies.
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Oct 21, 2019 23:22
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punk rebel ecks posted:Why do I actually believe this was a thing? It was a thing on this very forum.
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Oct 21, 2019 23:31
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The only good thing that came from this movie was giving me the opportunity to show people Joker's many boners Who cares about the actual film
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Oct 21, 2019 23:43
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I would’ve had so much more respect for the movie if Arthur would’ve walked out onto Murray’s set with a raging hard-on.
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Oct 22, 2019 01:34
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Maron would have been better in the De Niro role imo
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Oct 22, 2019 01:43
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Coffee And Pie posted:Maron would have been better in the De Niro role imo They wanted an actor where you don't want him to get shot
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Oct 22, 2019 07:14
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